Can True Salvation Be Forfeited?

[cygnusx1]

I have no problem with that. Not His people can become His people.... Hos 2:23.

All God's people are God's people , always have been.... they are in an everlasting Eternal Covenant , even when they were alienated by sin and darkness , God's Love was upon them

John 6:38,39: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me: and this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
How can people be given to Christ before they are Christ's ?
answer , They belonged in an Eternal Covanant.
God always loved them! (Ephesians 1)

" I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd." John 10:16Clearly speaking of elect Gentiles who will (not might) hear Christ's voice.

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." John 10: 20

Christ interceeded on behalf of believers even before they believed ... these are they who were chosen in the Covenant of grace ...... they were the Father's and He gave them to His Son as a reward!

John 11:52
and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. (WEB)
and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather together into one the children of God that are scattered abroad. (ASV)
And not for that nation only, but for the purpose of uniting in one body the children of God all over the world. (BBE)
and not for the nation only, but that he should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad. (DBY) And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. (KJV)

Clearly God is gathering together the elect who even before conversion are called "the children of God" ....... God knows His own.

 

[Ben johnson]

It's interesting that God would bring up a scenario where He declares that the one who is wise shouldn't boast in his wisdom, but instead, ought to boast in the Lord, that he knows Him. Of course, to the person who believes in free will to the extent that you do, Ben, these verses look rather contradictory. Because I mean, if it was by our free will that we gain wisdom and knowledge to know God, then we wouldn't be boasting in the fact that we know God, but instead, in the fact that we chose to know God, we got to know God by our own free will, by our own wisdom. Basically, what free will is declaring is that we know God by our own wisdom. Of course, that is just heinous, becuase God tells us not to boast in our wisdom, but in the fact that we know Him. And we know Him solely becuase of Him, since if it was for us to know Him as a result of our wisdom, then we would hvae something to boast about in ourselves, namely, our wisdom. However, God will have nothing to do with us boasting in ourselves. Remember: Pride is a Sin.

Hi, Randy. Do you agree that we come to God with humility? That we are fully aware of our hopelessness, and only by His grace and love have we ANY chance at eternity? If you agree, then what is there for us to boast in? The choice to receive His love, or not, is not a basis for conceit; indeed, considering ourselves UNFALLIBLE is the conceit.

"Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, NEITHER WILL HE SPARE YOU; behold the kindness and severity of God's kindness --- to those who FELL, severity. But to you, kindness --- if you CONTINUE in His kindness, otherwise you will be CUT OFF! And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in again..." Rm11

Look at the contrast between those who study Scripture and ACCEPT what it says, and those who study and REFUSE what it says:

"From childhood you have known the sacred Scriptures which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to saving-faith in Christ Jesus." 2Tim3:15

"You study the Scriptures, thinking in them you have salvation; but they speak of Me, and you are unwilling to come to Me that you may have life. WHY are you unwilling? Because you seek MAN'S glory rather than God's. Do not think that I will judge you; the one who will judge you is MOSES, in whom you have set your hope. For Moses wrote of Me; but if you will not believe Moses' words, how will you believe Mine?" Jn5:39-47

Every single person is commanded to repent and believe the gospel. If the call to salvation was sufficient to overcome man's depravity, then why hasn't it overcome man's depravity in some? Clearly, that call isn't all-sufficient. It's just a sad sad situation, isn't it, Ben? God can't do what He decided to do becuase Man has become too powerful for Him. *sigh* Might as well agree with nietzche in that Man killed God.

Because they CHOOSE to disbelieve, Randy. Why is it that some people do not believe in "conscious man"?

Slow down a second. You just said that all men are called to salvation (that is, I'm assuming you meant every single person oin the face of the earht without exception), however, in order to be called to salvation in your sense, they need to hear the Gospel. Yet, that would be totally contradictiing yourself, since not every single person on the face of the earth has had the gospel preached to them yet. There's a logical inconsistency in your argument, Ben, please correct it.

Not at all. In Rm10:14, Paul writes: "How shall they believe in what they have not heard? How shall they hear without a preacher?" This is not a statement of "dictate", it is pragmatic. Look in Rom1, and "what is known about God is evident in them, for God made it evident. Since the beginning of time God's invisible attributes, His divine nature and eternal power have been CLEARLY seen through what He has made, so they are without excuse."[/color]

Men are more likely to believe if they hear the Gospel; but the Creation itself exposes the person of the Creator; each person is responsible to believe in as much measure as he understands.

This I believe is the theme in Rm2, where Paul speaks of those who do NOT have the Law (Jesus), neverthless show the work of the law written on their hearts, their consciences alternately accusing and defending them at the Judgment...

Make sense?

Now, if I were to assume that you were correct ("he is called to salvation by the words of the Gospel")

Ben didn't write it; Paul did. Rm10:14...

then Man being called to salvation is something initiated by Man, since it is Man who preaches the gospel.... Hmm... So, Man then seeks for God as a result of Man telling other men about God. Now, I'm also going to assume that you mean All Men who have the gospel preached to them seek after God. So, what about the people who hear about it, and want nothing to do with it, and frankly, never want anything to do with it? Did they seek after God? Hmm...

And THAT is why Jesus "blasted" Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum! "I tell you it will go better for THEM (Tyre, Sidon, Sodom) than for YOU in the judgment." I can't see any other meaning in that.

...and it connects directly with what Jesus said to Thomas, Jn20:29: "You believe BECAUSE you see? Blessed are those who have NOT seen and yet believe."

There is no shred of "predestination" in that; doesn't fit.

Slow down a second here Ben, I think you are missing something. How does Man then become convicted? Does he become convicted as a result of the gospel or as a result of him thinking about the gospel? Ok. If conviction is because of Man's free will, then what convicts man to choose to be convicted? Ben, recognize that the will is not self-determining and never will be self-determining.

What does Acts2:37 say? Peter was telling them, "You want the Messiah, and God SENT Him, but YOU KILLED HIM!" THAT was the cause of their being "cut to the heart" (smitten in conscience)!

Why does he become convicted? Why does he come to belief? Why, Ben, why? Oh please answer me! We would love to know!

Why do people believe in evolution? One prominent evolutionist said, "It's sexual; if we admit to GOD, then we can't engage in every twisted/perverted thing we want."

Each man faces a choice, Randy; accept/love the Creator (and be with Him for eternity), or choose sin instead (and spend eternity apart from Him).

As Deut30 says, "I have set before you LIFE and DEATH, blessing and curse, prosperity and adversity; so CHOOSE LIFE by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and walking in His statutes. For this is life and the length of your days..."

So, it takes belief to overcome unbelief? Well, how can someone believe if they don't believe? Doesn't make much sense to me. How can belief overcome unbelief if unbelief is ever present prior to belief? What suddenly makes the person go from unbelief to belief if in order to overcome sin, you have to believe? Recognize that unbelief is in itself a sin (unforgivable, for that matter). If I believed your logic to be correct, then nobody could ever be convicted toward Christ because they are under the sin of unbelief. There's something missing in your argument, Ben, there must be! Unbelief doesn't just turn into belief if belief in the power of Jesus is necessary to overcome sin, namely the sin of unbelief.

Look at how Paul words it in 1Cor1 --- God's wisdom is foolish to man; man's wisdom is foolish to God. Yet God is pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE!

Can we deny the concept of "believe THROUGH the foolishness"? I don't see how. And that ruins the premise of "must be regenerated FIRST, so that it CEASES being 'foolish' and becomes 'power' so that one CAN believe."

It is belief that changes the message FROM "foolish", TO "power"....

Hmm... "Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?" Rom. 9:19

Nope, you can't do that; Rom9:11-29 (I think) is an "ALSO GENTILES" passage. And you're citing a rare usage of "boulemai" (decree), while nowhere in Scripture does God DECREE salvation. Look at Jn6:40; "thelema" desire, not "boulema" decree...

However, in order to overcome the sin of unbelief, we must first believe in Jesus and His power to overcome the sin of unbelief, like you said. Ben, this doesn't make any sense though. Why? Your arguments beg the question: What happens in between condemning unbelief and saving belief?

Look at Heb11:6 "Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who COMES to God must believe God IS, and that He is a rewarder of those who SEEK Him." In this passage, does God REWARD those who COME to Him BY faith? Or does God DECIDE the faith of those who THEN come to Him?

What's the dynamic?

Well, hold on another second here. You said, "We are saved by belief, not by a good or boastable quality", but that takes away God's work in salvation. Instead of God doing the saving, instead, it's us doing the saving of ourselves, and therefore, makes our choice of belief in Him a good and boastable quality. "To assume that whatever God requires of us to do in order to be saved is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." Thank You, John Owen.

And to presume that God CHOOSES (monergistically, unilaterally), makes the Cross "no effect". If Jesus died for all who WILL believe, then the Cross is EFFECTIVE (it effects salvation). But if God already CHOSE certain ones' belief, then the Cross is INEFFECTIVE (does not effect salvation, only FULFILLS what God previously DECIDED).

With respect --- is the Cross "effective"? Or is it "ineffective", only pageantry?

You haven't checked the context of that verse lately, have you? Recognize that Jesus is talking about physical sight.

Precisely; why would "believing BECAUSE you see" be less blessed than "believing without seeing"? What about Matt11:21-24, Bethsaida and Chorazin and Capernaum SAW and WOULD not believe?

The decisions that we make are effects of things that have occurred and are occurring at the moment. Our decisions do not cause the things to happen.

What does "justice" mean to you? How would you define "fatalism"?

I don't know what you are trying to argue here.

Hopefully I've already answered that in this post.

Yet to say that truly saved individuals can fall is to assume that we would be persevering by our own strength. We'd instead be trusting in ourselves to keep the faith rather than trusting in Christ Alone to be sufficient for our salvation. It's almost as if your view of salvation is that Christ can't accomplish something without first having permission from Man.

What do you do with Jude's "KEEP YOURSELVES in GOd's love"?
Paul's "take care about your teaching, PERSEVERE, as you DO you will save yourselves"?
Peter's "be diligent in your calling/election, SO THAT the gates of Heaven BE provided"?

Umm... Ben. If salvation is belief that we do by our own choice, then it is no longer God who saves, but instead, it is us. And, if we got to heaven and thought to ourselves "Oh, we saved ourselves because of the choices we made. We made the right choices. I did it. It was my choice of believing that saved me." Then we would be spitting in God's face and raping Him of His glory, the glory that He has because He alone saves, His Grace saves, and the Cross saves. But if you want to take pride in the choice of belief that you made, fine. There isn't much that I can do about that except pray that God would show you that pride is a sin.

Not at all; as I conveyed in "The Gift", if I give you a gift your RECEIVING the gift changes nothing ABOUT the gift. It remains all of me, you simply HOLD what I CREATED for you.

I look forward to hearing your answers to the questions I've raised to you; each of us grows when looking at the world through another's eyes.

 

[Ben johnson]

While slaves were by no means free, prior to being slaves they often had choices as to whom they would be enslaved to, and whether they would be slaves at all.

In the above illustration you have a man voluntarily becoming a slave —freely choosing not to be free!

Indeed; hence the clear words, "CONSIDER YOURSELVES dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus".

I believe men are born depraved—slaves of sin. Our wills are in bondage and we have no power to free ourselves. In order to free us form this master, Christ died on the cross and paid for our freedom. He then asks us to make Him our new master. Many of course reject Him and chose to serve their old master, thus enslaving themselves to sin once again. Perhaps this is what Hebrews 6 is speaking of. But those who receive Christ become slaves of a new master, whom they will be in bondage to forever.

Well said.
...up to the point of "be in bondage forever". Please read my previous post (to SeekingPurity), specifically what I said about Rom11.

This is why I like the arminian framework over the pelagian and calvinistic frameworks. The idea of prevenient (forerunning) grace that enables us to choose, seems to work with these metaphors best. And I think eternal security fits nicely with it as well, though many arminians disagree. Our freedom from sin was purchased. Who's going to purchase us from Christ?

Does Scripture say that we can be "deceived away from Christ"? I think it does:

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve, YOUR minds should be led away from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3

"As you have RECEIVED Christ, so walk IN Him, rooted and established in the faith, as you were taught, abounding with thangksgiving. TAKE HEED lest anyone TAKES you CAPTIVE through empty philosophy and deceit, according to the traditions of men, RATHER than according to CHRIST." Col2:6-8

I trust you have some comments.

How did you know I would?

 

[GustheMule]

More exclusive than you think. His people were the jews. But it was only exclusive in focus. Paul went on to show us that He was not only the savior of the jews but gentiles also.

1Tim. 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Sorry, couldn’t let that one go by.

And no one disputes that only those he saves are saved.

 

[holdon]

All God's people are God's people , always have been.... they are in an everlasting Eternal Covenant , even when they were alienated by sin and darkness , God's Love was upon them

God called them "not-my-people".... So, why are you figthing God's Word?

John 6:38,39: “For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me: and this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”
How can people be given to Christ before they are Christ's ?
answer , They belonged in an Eternal Covanant.
God always loved them! (Ephesians 1)

"Eternal Covenant"??? Baloney. It's not in Ephesians 1, nor in Jn 6.
"those thou hast given me I have guarded, and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled." So, was the son of perdition elect in the "eternal covenant"?

" I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd." John 10:16Clearly speaking of elect Gentiles who will (not might) hear Christ's voice.

Of course

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." John 10: 20

Christ interceeded on behalf of believers even before they believed ... these are they who were chosen in the Covenant of grace ...... they were the Father's and He gave them to His Son as a reward!

It doesn't say at all what you say: "chosen in the covenant of Grace..... they were the Father's.... and the reward thing". It's all conjecture and speculation.

John 11:52
and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. (WEB)
and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather together into one the children of God that are scattered abroad. (ASV)
And not for that nation only, but for the purpose of uniting in one body the children of God all over the world. (BBE)
and not for the nation only, but that he should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad. (DBY) And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. (KJV)

Clearly God is gathering together the elect who even before conversion are called "the children of God" ....... God knows His own.

Where are elect called children of God before conversion?? Not here, nor anywhere. He will gather in one the children of God scattered. That's all it means. You're grasping at self-built straw.

 

[cygnusx1]

God called them "not-my-people".... So, why are you figthing God's Word? "Eternal Covenant"??? Baloney. It's not in Ephesians 1, nor in Jn 6.
"those thou hast given me I have guarded, and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled." So, was the son of perdition elect in the "eternal covenant"? Of course It doesn't say at all what you say: "chosen in the covenant of Grace..... they were the Father's.... and the reward thing". It's all conjecture and speculation.

Where are elect called children of God before conversion?? Not here, nor anywhere. He will gather in one the children of God scattered. That's all it means. You're grasping at self-built straw.

i just knew this was going to be as far as you can go ...... bye!

 

[holdon]

i just knew this was going to be as far as you can go ...... bye!

I would go the extra mile. But I see I left you by the wayside....

 

[cygnusx1]

I would go the extra mile. But I see I left you by the wayside....

 

[CCWoody]

Heh heh heh --- in that one statement is a wealth of theology.

"Man is totally depraved, is committed to wickedness and rebellion, unable to even consider believing in Jesus, because his only desire is to sin. God must regenerate his heart BEFORE he is at all ABLE to believe, and once regenerated his heart WILLS to follow Jesus. So in the platform of "Responsible Grace", what is it that causes ONE man to believe, and another to DISBELIEVE? The believer must be SMARTER and BETTER than the other; he can take PRIDE in his clever choice to believe in Jesus."

Does that reflect your view? Is that what was written "between the words of your "better-IQ" statement?
Very well. We are depraved. TOTALLY depraved. We have no redeeming qualities of our own, our own "righteousness" is as filthy rags to God. We follow the nature we inherited from our ancestor, Adam.

No, Ben, it does not reflect my view. I don't think that certain people are smarter and that is why they are saved. I don't have in my view that salvation is just beyond the dumb, ignorant, or inbecil spiritually speaking. That would make God a respector of smart people.

As a Calvinist, I believe that salvation is of the Lord, not the smart or clever or strong or whatever makes one man differ from another.

So, my friend and brother Woody, salvation is CHRIST IN YOU; it is belief, it is "dying to self and sin daily". It is choice.

How can you lose Christ in you? I'm really curious as to the mechanism. It would seem to me to be about as possible as losing your own spirit within you. Doesn't seem to be possible. I just don't think you can play salvation hide and seek with the spirit of Christ.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[Calminian]

And no one disputes that only those he saves are saved.

I certainly wouldn't say the unsaved are saved. The argument Mikey and Cyg are having is whether Jesus is the savior of all men (every last human being) or merely the savior of the elect that come from among all peoples (nations). The latter will jive better with L, but unfortunately the text won't allow for it as Mikey acknowledges. It's an issue of God's desire to save all and whether or not men actually have a choice to disobey God's desire. I make a distinction between God's determinative will and His desire. His desire can be thwarted which causes Him grief. But His determinative will can never be thwarted. It was His desire that all believe and are saved. It is an opportunity for all, thus He is the savior of all. It's His will that only those that choose to believe will be saved. Those who fail to believe, fail to be saved by their savior. The only failure is on man's part.

The confusion over Matt. 1:21 is a bit different. In this passage Matthew is limiting the focus to Jesus kinsman.

Matt. 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Jesus is also the savior Israel, even those who refuse to be saved. This is not speaking of the elect. These are those of his race, the lost tribes of Israel, who he came for.

 

[Calminian]

This is a little long winded. Sorry in advance.

Indeed; hence the clear words, "CONSIDER YOURSELVES dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus".
Well said.
...up to the point of "be in bondage forever". Please read my previous post (to SeekingPurity), specifically what I said about Rom11.
Does Scripture say that we can be "deceived away from Christ"? I think it does:

I would also say that we can be deceived away from Christ—that is, from the truth about Him. This is why the doctrine of efficacious regeneration prior to faith doesn't fit with New Testament teachings. There are several passages that teach men can fall from knowledge of the truth (enlightenment).

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Heb. 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

2Pet. 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

The author of Hebrews uses the rebellious generation of Moses' time as an example of falling away. This serves as a very insightful metaphor. These were saved from the bondage of their old master, Egypt. They were atoned for universally at Sinai. Then they refused to believe and enter the promise land —Canaan. Thus they fell away from God's grace. The author of Hebrews warns us several times, don't be like them.

So the question is, did this generation fall from salvation, or just an opportunity? This is probably where we'd separate. In Hebrews 4 God likens this opportunity to enter the promised land to the gospel.

Heb. 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

They failed to have faith and enter. This serves as a warning to us to not make the same mistake.

3 For we who have believed do enter that rest,

This to not enter, is to not believe.

Heb. 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So all the warnings are aimed at those rescued from their old master and atoned for, but haven't yet believed. They've been given knowledge, enlightenment and opportunity, just as that rebellious generation had received. But they were still unbelieving, thus had still not entered rest.

I guess to sum us, I would say there are strong warnings not to fall from grace, but never warnings not to fall from rest.

All warnings to the church are directed at those in the church but still not saved. Jesus told us not to separate the wheats and tares. They are in every congregation. They've been enlightened and received knowledge of the truth. They've even been sanctified (Heb. 10:29). But that doesn't mean they've believed.

And I'll end with a questions. Do men perish for their sins, or their unbelief?

 

[heymikey80]

Come on, look at post 31 and 33. I don't know why you are fighting this. You have a disagreement with him. I agree with you. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable.

Well, I'm glad we agree. I think ... CygnusX1 may agree as well if you point out that Jesus didn't intend to save everyone -- though He is the Savior of everyone.

That's a very Calvin thing to say

Um, on that issue in post 32, "pan anthropoi" is also used to talk about "mankind" -- that is, all kinds of men. That's why you hear alot about it from Calvinists -- it's a simple short-circuit that avoids dealing with the argument that Jesus doesn't save everyone. I'm not surprised CygnusX1 used it, I would've too if I'd thought this were going somewhere else.

Amen. What are we arguing about? That's all I was trying to tell him.

Well cool.

I agree with this as well. What is it with you guys. Do you just want to argue? Jesus is the savior of all men, not just the elect from all nations as some calvinists interpret this verse. You argument is not with me.

Normally we Calvinists encounter the view (from Arminius as well) that Jesus wants to save everyone, but is thwarted by His inability to rightly change people's wills. And, um, your name is a merger of the two.

I know that's what I was hearing when you pulled up the verses, too. To take exception to what CygnusX1 was saying at post #27 was to assert Jesus actually saved someone other than His people. But maybe you weren't taking exception, just qualifying it more. That makes sense too.

So maybe it's all cross-connecting mass-confusion, as you've said.

So then I'll ask you what I asked him. Do you believe you are a true jew. Do you believe the promises to Israel apply to you?

Of course I do think I'm an inward Jew. "True" Jew ... if that's what God considers a Jew ... I guess that'd make me a "true Jew".

The promises to Israel? Israel is a people, a nation, an ethnicity. I'd say what God intended to deliver to inward Jews, He delivers to the Church, where Gentiles are no longer strangers to the covenants of promise nor aliens to the people God is building (cf. Ep 2:11ff.).

There are physical and national tokens of God's promise to inward Jews. These God puts on display before the delivery of God's promise to His people as a provisional sign of His offer to all who believe. They're promises, too, certainly. The promise that Abe would have a son by Sarah is certainly not promised to me, e.g.. But they were provisional, often typological. They are fulfilled when the reality they were pointing to, arrives (or arrived). And that reality is as far as I know invariably fulfilled in the people of God -- toward inward Jews.

 

[GustheMule]

I certainly wouldn't say the unsaved are saved. The argument Mikey and Cyg are having is whether Jesus is the savior of all men (every last human being) or merely the savior of the elect that come from among all peoples (nations). The latter will jive better with L, but unfortunately the text won't allow for it as Mikey acknowledges. It's an issue of God's desire to save all and whether or not men actually have a choice to disobey God's desire. I make a distinction between God's determinative will and His desire. His desire can be thwarted which causes Him grief. But His determinative will can never be thwarted. It was His desire that all believe and are saved. It is an opportunity for all, thus He is the savior of all. It's His will that only those that choose to believe will be saved. Those who fail to believe, fail to be saved by their savior. The only failure is on man's part.

The confusion over Matt. 1:21 is a bit different. In this passage Matthew is limiting the focus to Jesus kinsman.

Matt. 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Jesus is also the savior Israel, even those who refuse to be saved. This is not speaking of the elect. These are those of his race, the lost tribes of Israel, who he came for.

I know, calmian, I just wanted to make the seemingly obvious point that of course Christ died for the elect, and if it weren't for the elect's sake, I doubt he would have given his life a ransom. There would have been no joy in that case (Hebrews 12:2). I wasn't disagreeing with your post. I was just piling on so to speak .

Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, especially those who believe. Just because bookoos of passages have the "those who believe" in view, doesn't change the fact that in a very real since the Son of Man died for the sins of the world--all men.

 

[GustheMule]

This is a little long winded. Sorry in advance.



I would also say that we can be deceived away from Christ—that is, from the truth about Him. This is why the doctrine of efficacious regeneration prior to faith doesn't fit with New Testament teachings. There are several passages that teach men can fall from knowledge of the truth (enlightenment).

Heb. 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Heb. 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

2Pet. 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

The author of Hebrews uses the rebellious generation of Moses' time as an example of falling away. This serves as a very insightful metaphor. These were saved from the bondage of their old master, Egypt. They were atoned for universally at Sinai. Then they refused to believe and enter the promise land —Canaan. Thus they fell away from God's grace. The author of Hebrews warns us several times, don't be like them.

So the question is, did this generation fall from salvation, or just an opportunity? This is probably where we'd separate. In Hebrews 4 God likens this opportunity to enter the promised land to the gospel.

Heb. 4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

They failed to have faith and enter. This serves as a warning to us to not make the same mistake.

3 For we who have believed do enter that rest,

This to not enter, is to not believe.

Heb. 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So all the warnings are aimed at those rescued from their old master and atoned for, but haven't yet believed. They've been given knowledge, enlightenment and opportunity, just as that rebellious generation had received. But they were still unbelieving, thus had still not entered rest.

I guess to sum us, I would say there are strong warnings not to fall from grace, but never warnings not to fall from rest.

All warnings to the church are directed at those in the church but still not saved. Jesus told us not to separate the wheats and tares. They are in every congregation. They've been enlightened and received knowledge of the truth. They've even been sanctified (Heb. 10:29). But that doesn't mean they've believed.

And I'll end with a questions. Do men perish for their sins, or their unbelief?

Wow, I've never considered this view before: that all men are in the wilderness but have not yet entered the promised land and we must beleive to enter in this life. I always took the passages to mean that believers are in tyhe wilderness and we won't enter the rest until we get to heaven. I"ll give this some thought. I'm about to go reread Hebrews right now.

But Have you ever given 1 Corinthians 10 a close look? I don't see how anything can be clearer that our security is conditional. what about the spiritual rock who is christ?

 

[Easystreet]

NO
​

 

[Calminian]

I know, calmian, I just wanted to make the seemingly obvious point that of course Christ died for the elect, and if it weren't for the elect's sake, I doubt he would have given his life a ransom. There would have been no joy in that case (Hebrews 12:2). I wasn't disagreeing with your post. I was just piling on so to speak .

Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, especially those who believe. Just because bookoos of passages have the "those who believe" in view, doesn't change the fact that in a very real since the Son of Man died for the sins of the world--all men.

I knew you weren't disagreeing Gus. My comments were just further clarification.

 

[IntheFaith]

By saying salvation can be lost is like saying the person was not saved to begin with since eternal life is eternal.

 

[Calminian]

Wow, I've never considered this view before: that all men are in the wilderness but have not yet entered the promised land and we must believe to enter in this life. I always took the passages to mean that believers are in tyhe wilderness and we won't enter the rest until we get to heaven. I"ll give this some thought. I'm about to go reread Hebrews right now.

Thanks. I’m sure this view isn’t flawless, but I’ve pondered it for quite a while. Sure makes sense to me.

The key to Hebrews is understanding Moses' generation. As I mentioned, the gospel of Christ is metaphorically compared to the message they were given, that Canaan was theirs for the taking. But they didn't believe it. They didn't mix this message with faith (Heb. 4:2). As we look back at that story, what then happened to them next? They actually tried to enter and were slaughtered by the Canaanites. This is significant when compared to other passage in Hebrews like 6:4-8 and 10:26-29. These passages speak of, I hate to say it, a time when the opportunity to be saved will no longer be available. There seems to be emphasized in Hebrews a window of opportunity. If God is speaking to you, don't wait, he may never talk to you again.

Heb. 3:15 As has just been said: “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.”

This also corresponds with the Esau illustration in Hebrews 12. Esau had an opportunity to receive the birthright. But he despised it for a bowl of soup. Later, when trying to get the blessing from his dying father, he begged with tears, but is was too late. Isaac would not change his mind.

Heb. 12:17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.

Again this warning. When opportunity knocks, act. Don't wait. God will not draw you forever. This seems to indicate that even in one's physical lifetime, there may not always be opportunity to believe. God will eventually withdraw his enlightenment if you resist long enough.

John 12:35 Then Jesus told them, “You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36 Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light.”

Jer. 13:16 Give glory to the LORD your God before he brings the darkness, before your feet stumble on the darkening hills. You hope for light, but he will turn it to thick darkness and change it to deep gloom.

Rom. 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.

But Have you ever given 1 Corinthians 10 a close look? I don't see how anything can be clearer that our security is conditional. what about the spiritual rock who is christ?

Seems to correspond to the author of Hebrews' take.

Heb. 3:10 That is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’

Notice it doesn't say they used to know God’s ways but fell away. The warning is not to be like them, having never known God's ways.

This corresponds to Jesus's condemnation of pseudo believers.

Mat. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Notice it doesn't say He once knew they but they fell away. There are some in the church saying Lord, Lord that still are not known by God.

There seems to be a time on one's life, after deliverance from sin and knowledge of the truth, but before actual genuine belief in the gospel that is extremely dangerous. Metaphorically this seems to be the distance between Egypt and Canaan. Peter seems to communicate a similar idea of falling from knowledge, rather than faith.

2Pet. 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

Peter also seems to believe that those who perish, even false teachers, were in some sense bought.

2Pet. 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves.

This all seems to take us back to that event of Moses' time, where they were rescued from Egypt, sanctified by blood at Sinai, and failed to trust God and enter rest. Maybe this will help us understand why He said all sins will be forgiven but one, the blasphemy of the Spriit. I'm convinced, the blasphemy of the Spirit is simply unbelief. Thus we are not condemned for our sins, but for one sin, unbelief.

Matt. 12:31 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

That's my take on this issue at this time. Wow I just preached a mini sermon!

 

[heymikey80]

I agree with you quite a bit on the perspective of Hebrews, that it's definitely talking about the present tough times the church were going through, encouraging them not to lose heart.

I'm not so sure that those who were falling away didn't "know God's ways." Maybe this isn't quite what you mean -- but it seems to me the one falling away in Heb 6 knew. He had become a partaker of the Spirit. He had been enlightened. 'Zis extend to belief? I don't think so -- it's missing in the Apostle's description, and he's so obsessive about belief elsewhere you'd think he'd include it if it were there (e.g., Heb 6:12, Heb 11, Heb 4:2, but there're dozens of places elsewhere in the book).

 

[Ben johnson]

No, Ben, it does not reflect my view. I don't think that certain people are smarter and that is why they are saved. I don't have in my view that salvation is just beyond the dumb, ignorant, or inbecil spiritually speaking. That would make God a respector of smart people.

I understand that, Woody. But in the idea of "God is no respecter of persons", how can HE choose certain ones that HE WANTS? That would be "Him respecting"...

As a Calvinist, I believe that salvation is of the Lord, not the smart or clever or strong or whatever makes one man differ from another.

I agree with you that "salvation is of the Lord". As Jn1:13 says, "the birth (begottenness) is not of blood nor of the will of men, but of God". The difference between us, is that I see the RECEIVING of His begottenness is our choice...

How can you lose Christ in you? I'm really curious as to the mechanism. It would seem to me to be about as possible as losing your own spirit within you. Doesn't seem to be possible. I just don't think you can play salvation hide and seek with the spirit of Christ.

Aye --- there's the rub. HOW is "Christ in us"? If Christ indwells us by invitation (belief), then why would we not be able to come to UNbelief? What else could Paul have meant in 2Cor13:5? Doesn't that reflect perfectly on Col2:6-8? 2Pet1:5-10 & 3:17?