Here is what someone else had to say. I thought I'd throw this in for thought:
www.jesusplusnothing.com Eternal Security Part 2
Some of those but what about
passages!
By I Gordon
Question 1: What does falling away or turning away mean to a saved person? In looking up these verses again, I found it interesting that the term 'fall away' was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a 'falling away'. (see Matt 26:31-35) Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation. For the true believer it may involve a temporary period of backsliding or time of being out of fellowship with God. It is times when for one reason or another, the believer is having difficulty in his Christian walk. The believer would not however deny what they believe in their heart, even though their walk would not match what they believe. But note that even though Jesus said they would 'fall away', in the very same context, he also said to Peter that he had prayed that his faith would not fail and when he returned, to strengthen his brethren. (Luke 22:32) In other words, true believers may fall at times but their faith does not fail because Jesus intercedes for them. Concerning this intercession we are told 'hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him
(true salvation), since He always lives to make intercession for them.' And when do true believers need Jesus' intercession more but when they are struggling? See also John 17:6-12 concerning this intercession by Jesus for His believers. In this High Priestly prayer, Jesus makes it clear that the ones that God has given Him he keeps safe! See also Rom 8:32-34 where Jesus' intercession is used as one of the points to show that we cannot be separated from the love of Christ.
In contrast to this are several other passages which speak of apostasy. The first falling away is temporary and is in regard to their walk. For a true believer however, they will never deny their faith in the Lord Jesus. And, like the true prodigal son, they will return. Apostasy however, as mentioned in Heb 6:6 and 1 Tim 4:1 amongst other verses, speaks of a falling away from the faith - an abandonment of the faith and truth of the gospel. This is prophesied to increase greatly in the end times. As Heb 6:4-7 states this is done by those who very much look like they are genuine saved believers. They have known everything that is needed to be saved; they have felt the conviction and drawing of the Holy Spirit, maybe even seen other signs that enable them to make a genuine decision. They may even go along with Christian teaching for a while... but they become apostates... prodigal pigs who turn away from it all, deny the truth and go back to the mud.
Concerning apostasy (deliberately falling away and turning from the truth of the faith) William MacDonald writes in the Believers Bible Commentary -
'Apostasy is a sin which is only committed by unbelievers, not by those who are deceived, but by those who knowingly, and wilfully and maliciously turn from the truth... Apostasy should not be confused with backsliding. A true believer may wander very far from Christ. Through sin his fellowship with God is shattered. But he can be restored to full fellowship as he confesses and forsakes his sin.'
Question 2: Are the people spoken of in 2 Peter 2, who had knowledge of Jesus and then left, true believers who have now lost their salvation? J. Vernon McGee, a well loved Bible teacher, wrote about this passage, saying that that there are prodigal sons (Luke 15) and there are prodigal pigs! (2 Pet 2:22) The prodigal son gave up that which his father had for him and wasted it all through sinful living. But because he was a true son, he turned, repented and came back to his father. A prodigal pig on the other hand, is one who comes into church for a season, tries to tidy himself up, yet not being truly saved and still having the nature of a pig, his desire is to return to the mud from which he came and that is exactly what he does! A prodigal son may stupidly go into the world for a season, but in his heart he will never find rest and will long for, and return, home. Where as a prodigal pig may wash all the mud off, come into church, but in his heart he wont find rest either, for the nature of a pig just loves mud and given time will return. The people mentioned in 2 Peter 2:22 are prodigal pigs who do not have a true saving faith. We should also see the context that this whole passage is talking about. The whole chapter is concerning false teachers and false prophets. They forsake the right way and go astray, revelling in their deceptions. Doesnt sound like sheep to me!
Question 3:
I read the passage Hebrew 6:4-6. This has put a great fear in my heart for fearIt speaks of
true Christians who fall away and lose their salvation.
If that is true, then also notice that it is
impossible
- for them to come back. (vs 6) You wrote in your question that this passage put great fear in your heart that you would not be able to fully return and receive the Spirit in your life. Well, this passage goes further than that and says those who have fallen away, whoever they are, CANNOT come back.
- It speaks of professing believers who are in fact, prodigal pigs. They are apostates. Those that have heard, seen, and tasted all that they need to be truly saved, but havent become born again Christians and still having the nature of a pig within them, wilfully turn their backs on it all and return to wallow in the mud!
To say that it is true Christians who have lost their salvation (as no 1 does) doesnt line up with the promises in the rest of Gods word for Gods true sheep that salvation is secure (such as John 6:37-40, John 10:26-30, and Rom 8:33-39 especially in light of Rom 11:29 plus heaps of others). Nor does the fact that these people cant repent (if they were true Christians) line up with other scriptures such as the prodigal son, 1 John 1:9 and the overall teaching of the New Testament. So I dont believe point 1. Point 2 is what I believe, and here is why.
- (vs 1-3) Firstly, at the start of the chapter, it talks about going on to maturity. Then in verse 3 it says, and this we will do if God permits. So straight away it is showing the possibility that there may be some that God does not permit to go on. Whoever they are
The next verse speaks about those who God does not permit to go on because it starts with for in the case of those who once have been
Now God will permit anyone to go on who desires to, but these people dont desire to, but have rejected it all! And having hardened their heart and become proud they now openly reject Christ. In other words apostates! God opposes them because in their pride they wilfully oppose Him. But dont ever think that there are some who truly desire to come close to God whom he wont allow.
- (vs 4-8) Now you probably think that they must have been true Christians for it says they were enlightened, tasted the word of God, and had partook of the Holy Spirit. But all these words can still be true the unsaved individual who has come to a knowledge of the truth, seen the power of the Holy Spirit, and felt the convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit in their life. Judas was an extreme example of this. He knew all there was to know having followed Jesus for three years. He had experienced the Holy Spirits power having been among the twelve sent out, two by two, to cast out demons and heal the sick. Yet he was never truly saved! Jesus own testimony about him confirms that he was not a true sheep that would be kept safe to the end. (John 17:11-12, John 13:18) None of the key words for truly saved individuals such as saving faith, eternal life, born again, redeemed by his blood, saved, salvation are used in this passage. In Hebrews verse by verse, William Newell quotes R.A Torrey on this passage saying there is a quickening short of regeneration. In other words, this passage speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit within the lives of these people that occurs before and leading up to salvation. But these people do not receive salvation, and openly rejecting it, they go back to the mud even if for a while they looked like the real thing!
- (vs 9-10) Greater evidence of the fact that these people were not saved is given in verse 9. Things change in this verse, for now He is speaking to those truly saved (calls them BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that accompany SALVATION. In other words, the people he was talking about in verses 4-8 didnt have salvation (and their open rejection testifies to this as well). But he has confidence in the beloved because they are saved! And this will show in their life through their perseverance.
In the Believers Bible Commentary, William MacDonald writes
Some earnest Christians are troubled when they read Hebrews 6 and similar passages. Satan uses these verses especially to unsettle believers who are having physical, mental, or emotional difficulties.
They fear that they have fallen away from Christ and that there is no hope of restoration. They worry that they have drifted beyond redemptions point. The fact that they are concerned about it is conclusive evidence that they are not apostates! An apostate would never have any such fears; he would brazenly repudiate Christ. If this sin of apostasy does not apply to believers, to whom then does it apply? It applies, for instance, to a young man who makes a profession of faith in Christ, but then something happens in his life. Perhaps he falls into gross immorality. Or perhaps he goes off to college and is shaken by the anti-Christian arguments of atheistic teachers. With full knowledge of the truth, he deliberately turns away from it, completely renouncing Christ, and viciously tramples on every sacred fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith. The Bible says it is impossible to restore such a one to repentance.
Question 4: What about Hebrews 10:25-30? What is the wilful sin mentioned and is this a loss of salvation?
Heb 10:25-30 is basically a parallel passage to the Heb 6 passage previously mentioned. We should always remember that
Hebrews was written to Hebrews that is, Jewish believers in the first century. That doesnt make it irrelevant for us, but we should at least read it in its first century context. For a Jew to become a Christian in the first century (and now!) basically meant the death sentence as far as their relationship with their family was concerned. They lost any right to an inheritance and came under extreme pressure (including physical persecution) to leave Christ and go back to Judaism. And that is what many did, even though for a while they looked like true believers. Read Heb 10:25-30 with this in mind. The wilful sin mentioned in verse 26 is linked to the verse before it because it starts with
for if... The verse before it is speaking of leaving the assembly of believers. The wilful sin that this passage talks about is leaving Christ and going back to Judaism, which was happening. Under Judaism, and what they were going back to, there no longer remained a sacrifice for sin (vs 26) (because God didnt accept animal sacrifices anymore after Jesus had died for all sin, for all time.) But only judgement could be expected (vs 27 it is also interesting that Hebrews was written only a couple of years before the destruction of Jerusalem, the temple, and the whole Jewish sacrificial system in 70AD by the Romans. Some believe the judgements warned about in the book of Hebrews were speaking of this event.) They had trampled the Son of God underfoot because they had said that His death wasnt enough or didnt mean anything and they would carry on with their Jewish sacrifices. This also is how you insult the Spirit of grace. You dont insult the Spirit of grace by seeing your great need of grace. But you do insult the Spirit of grace when you wilfully turn your back on that grace and go ahead with your own laws and works as an effort to have your own righteousness and means of salvation under the old Jewish laws and sacrificial system.
Like I said at the start, this passage is a parallel passage to Hebrews 6, speaking of the apostasy of those who give up their profession of faith in Christ. The warning is given of what will happen to those that do this. But like the passage in chapter 6, the writer of Hebrews doesnt leave true believers with this thought of judgement. In chapter 6, at the end of the warning he wrote
: But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you (the true believers), things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. After the warning in chapter 10, the writer gives the same encouragement to true believers when he writes
: But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction (the professing believers who became apostate), but of those who have faith (true believers) to the preserving of the soul.
Question 6: What does it mean that a branch that doesnt bare fruit will be cast into the fire? Does that refer to a saved person that does nothing for Christ like witnessing or being active in serving Christ?
There are at least three common interpretations that are given of this difficult verse.
1. It speaks of a saved person who has lost their salvation and is thrown into Hell.
2. It speaks of a professing Christian who, while they look like they have saving faith, prove by their life that this is not the case, and are thrown into Hell.
My own personal view would be the second point. I don't believe the first point as 1 Cor 3:15 clearly states that for a true believer, even if their work is burned up (ie no fruit) they are still saved, but as one who just escapes through the fire. They are in Heaven, but they have no rewards. And one scripture never contradicts another. For me, the language of the verse makes it hard to believe point 3. I believe that Judas is given to us as an example of those who look very much like they are true followers of Christ, and in the vine, but they show by not abiding in Jesus that that is not the case. Jesus made it clear that Judas was not one of the ones whom He had kept safe and guarded (John 17:12, 13:18), and he wasnt a true believer. He had different motives (as a lot of 'converts' do today) in following Jesus.
They're indicators, and they are not absolute indicators. Ghandi could probably tell us that by now. Peter is telling us to use the indicators that we have, because they have some reliability. But Peter is not telling us these things are ontologically necessary to one another. But I've mentioned this before, too.
