Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Imagican

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It doesn't destroy my stance at all. First, salvation is not a work. To do a work, someone must work for something. There is no work in faith.

Yet the Bible plainly states that 'faith without works is DEAD'. Our works DETERMINE our faith. If you have faith, what you DO will REFLECT that faith.

Second, what James is saying is that if we have the Holy Spirit that His conviction in all of our hearts is going to make some difference, we will not be the same as before, even if we are tretorous and evil. The Holy Spirit will change all of us who are saved.

If you knew James was talking about faith that is 'alive' as in used and part of God's people and who are obedient to God, will display the fruit of the spirit in some way.

And this can be DONE without DOING?

Versus 'dead' faith that is not alive in the person.

So when the bible tells us to 'work out' our Salvation in 'fear and trembling', it doesn't REALLY mean that. All we need to DO is 'say we believe'?

We are required to FOLLOW. We are required to 'overcome'. We are required to FORGIVE if we wish to BE forgiven. We are required to LOVE or the love of God is not IN us.

Yet you insist that ALL we are required to DO is 'have faith'??? How then does one DETERMINE their 'faith'? In other words, what IS faith and how do exhibit it?


So no, you are not right at all.

Awful bold statement. Obviously you believe 'faith' is some form of 'magic' that can exist without any evidence or substance. Do you even KNOW what 'faith' is?

Our HOPE lies in Salvation, the promise that has been offered. From your perspective, I suppose that Salvation has ALREADY been received? If this is what you believe, then you would need to be able to prove this through scripture. I already offered scripture such as 'faith without works is dead'. And 'work out your Salvation'. If it had already been obtained, there would be 'nothing to work out'.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

How do you suppose that faith is the goal when charity is greater than faith? Charity is SHARING which is 'doing'. And this scripture plainly states that 'charity' is greater than 'faith'.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

I suppose you can somehow find evidence that 'providing' is NOT 'doing'?

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Need I offer MORE?

Blessings,

MEC
 
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Imagican

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Someone who is not in Christ cannot even please God.
Furthermore, does not have the Holy Spirit, so following Christ in spirit would have been impossible. And Truth without the Holy Spirit is impossible.

So magic words and a true heart are belief and faith.

Why do some Christians make it so difficult. It's all right there in the Bible.

The greatest that one can obtain is CHARITY. You seem to find something incomprehensible about 'that one'. It is simple. But you have chosen a path of least responsibility. Trying to make the bible say that ALL one NEEDS is belief and faith. Yet that is untrue. The Bible teaches us that it is LOVE that is the REAL result in any 'true faith' or 'true beliefs'.

The offer of Salvation is just that: an offer. If it were as YOU profess, ALL men would be saved. Yet the Bible tells us this will not be so.

So the only conclusion is that it takes MORE than mere faith or belief, it takes what MANIFESTS these things in TRUTH: works.

No, not 'works of the LAW'. Works of the HEART: charity, LOVE.

And anyone that doesn't think sharing their love is WORK has never even TRIED. And it starts with 'forgiveness'. We MUST forgive if we wish to be forgiven. That is WORK.

And isn't that EXACTLY what Salvation IS? God forgiving us for our sins through the blood of His Son, the ULTIMATE sacrifice?

But it is NOT simply about believing or 'faith' as many insist. There is NO faith, no TRUE belief if one's WORKS do not REFLECT it. So that means that 'works' are mandatory in order to establish one's faith or beliefs in TRUTH.

I posted a NUMBER of scriptures that state this CLEARLY. So you can't just USE the few scripture that speak of ONLY faith or ONLY belief. You must take 'all' scripture into account in order to form proper doctrine.

Everything in the New Testament referring to Abraham speaks his 'works' being accounted as HIS FAITH. Get it? Nothing has changed other than Christ being offered as a LIVING sacrifice. Our example of how we are to become ONE with God. Christ has shown us through the Gospels exactly what we are suppose to DO in order to please God. We are to love GOD above all else and each other as ourselves.

It's not 'magic' words or 'magic' deeds that separate those that may be 'saved' from those that remain 'lost'. It is a 'renewing' of our HEARTS that makes the difference. We will receive extended life if we LEARN to love and share it with God and each other. Christ is the catalyst that makes this possible. And the factor that 'changed' everything is FORGIVENESS. We cannot approach God, through His Son, without forgiveness. And forgiveness is the FIRST step in practicing LOVE. And I'll add this: anyone that doesn't understand that forgiveness is WORK has yet to learn HOW to forgive.

Many confuse 'works of the law' with 'work of the Spirit'. There is a HUGE difference. We cannot please God by following ANY 'laws' except ONE: LOVE. Christ made it clear that the most important commandments are 'love God, love each other'. If this wasn't a requirement, He would not have stated they are the MOST important COMMANDMENTS. You can't expect to receive any significant 'effect' from His death if you can't even FOLLOW what He commanded. For if you refuse to acknowledge and follow His commandments, how could you possibly expect Him to DWELL with you heart?

And we don't DO 'works' expecting a 'return'. We do the works of the Spirit because we are convicted to LOVE God and each other. Not for GAIN, but to build our treasures in HEAVEN instead of here on earth. We can clearly see through the ENTIRE Bible that God blesses those that follow in TRUTH. Not those that speak 'magic words' or do 'magic things'. It's simply a matter of LOVE which equates to 'righteousness'.

You propse that you and others like you are 'already saved'. I propose this is an impossibility since you still LIVE in this flesh. The determination cannot be made until the last breath is breathed. If you ABIDE in the 'truth', then you have every reason to place your faith and hope in the promises that have been offered. But if you DON'T, you have no reason to place any validity whatsoever in WHATEVER you believe. And the truth is, it is not merely faith or belief, for the Bible plainly states that 'charity' is greater than EITHER. It is 'charity' or 'love' that determines what your TRUE beliefs are. it is 'charity or love' that establish one's true FAITH. One way or the other.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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Imagican

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It was indicated previous that my understanding of the words of James is lacking. Yet I posted scripture that clearly shows it is not MY understanding that is askew. I'll post it again and see if I can get a comment from the person that falsely accused ME of a lack of understanding:

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And this person insists that it is a matter of 'faith ALONE'. Yet these words offered by James CLEARLY state that it is NOT merely a matter of 'faith alone'. But by WORKS is man's faith JUSTIFIED, (basically meaning: established), NOT by 'faith alone'.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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Geralt

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What do you mean by who gained it?

simple really, if Christ gained it for His sheep, then obviously their position is guaranteed.
if man gained it, there is no certainty, no guarantees.
 
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Imagican

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simple really, if Christ gained it for His sheep, then obviously their position is guaranteed.
if man gained it, there is no certainty, no guarantees.

You own words clearly show the truth. "His Sheep". What is REQUIRED to BE one of 'His sheep'? Can one do ONE THING and become one of His sheep? Or is being one of His sheep something that requires a 'continuous effort'? Can someone BE one of His sheep without 'following'?

Blessings,

MEC
 
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RDKirk

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You own words clearly show the truth. "His Sheep". What is REQUIRED to BE one of 'His sheep'? Can one do ONE THING and become one of His sheep? Or is being one of His sheep something that requires a 'continuous effort'? Can someone BE one of His sheep without 'following'?

Blessings,

MEC
It requires no effort at all. His sheep don't even consciously know they're His until they hear His voice.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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In John 10, Jesus gives a sequence of teachings by using analogies about sheep. Not every analogy is the same. It is his points we should look at - vs. over-extrapolating the analogies to fit man-made theories. (We don't have wool, we don't grass, etc.) Nothing He says here will contradict scripture, and much of it is clarified by other prophecies and scriptures in the Bible.

Jn 10:1: "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber."

The first analogy Jesus uses is that of the shepherd vs. robbers. He is pointing out His own, true authority as Shepherd of the flock of God, and that the Pharisees are 'strangers'.

Jn 10:1-6
"The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

In this first analogy, Jesus' point is based around these things:

- Only the man who comes in through the gate is the Shepherd (Jesus comes in through the gate, so is the true Shepherd)
- The sheep will only follow the voice of the Shepherd (The sheep only follow Jesus)
- The sheep will run away from the strangers and robbers who come in another way (The sheep recognize that the pharisees are not the true shepherd)

Jesus then moves into a second analogy:

Jn 10:7-10
"Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

In this second analogy, Jesus points out that He *Himself* is the gate, not just the shepherd (leader of the sheep). As the gate, His is the only way to enter the fold and be saved. It is important to note in this analogy that no one 'starts' inside the fold, but that all (including the sheep themselves) must come in through the gate (Christ).

Jesus then continues with a third analogy:
Jn 10:11-14
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep."

In this analogy, Jesus does not compare the Pharisees to robbers or talk about coming in through the gate, but rather compares them in this bit to 'hired hands.' He bases his authority as the shepherd (true leader) of the sheep on His willingness to die for them.

The 'wolf' here is general enemies of Christ, such as false prophets, but to a degree the pharisees as well (Matthew 7:15, Matthew 10:16, Luke 10:3).

Jesus then builds upon the teachings he has just given to make a new point - that there are more sheep not of 'this fold:'

Jn 10:15-18

"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Jesus here moves on not to His authority vs. the Pharisees, but to His death and Ressurection, and the bringing in of Gentile believers.

Recall that at the feast previously, the Jews had asked, "Will He go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?” (John 7:35)

The bringing in of the Gentiles had been foretold in the OT: Isaiah 52, Isa 53, Micah 4:2; etc.

But why juxtapose the teaching with the mention of His death? Because the unifying of Jew and Gentile believers into one flock would be a result of His laying down His life for the sheep.

Jn 11:51-52
"Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation, and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one."

Jn 12:32
"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”
they shall hear it, as the words seem to imply, while the sheep now in the fold refuse to follow it. (Comp. Notes on Matthew 8:11 and Romans 11:17.)

The people of Israel thought they were the true, and only, flock of God by virtue of being part of His chosen people. Yet Jesus' point in the next section is that His true sheep hear his voice. Merely being in the fold of Israel doesn't make one part of the one true flock of God.


Jn 10:24-30:

"The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe (present active indicative). The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe (present active indicative) because you are not (present indicative) my sheep. My sheep listen (present active indicative) to my voice; I know (present active indicative) them, and they follow me (present active indicative). I give them eternal life (present active indicative), and they shall never perish; no one will snatch (future active indicative) them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them (perfect active indicative) to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch (present active indicative) them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

It is very important to note the verb forms in this section. Disbelief and belief are both treated as ongoing states - not one-time or completed past events, and as other scriptures show amply, those states can be changed (unbelievers come in faith, or those with faith apostatize back to unbelief.) The giving of eternal life is also shown as a present, ongoing state, which fits well with other scripture which shows it is those who believe (actively) that hold (actively) eternal life (Jn 3:16.)

No one (the thieves, robbers, wolves, etc. of the chapter - and in other passages demonic powers or other earthly forces) can snatch the sheep from His hands, present or future.

Note, though, that this verse does not say that the sheep come in by some other way than the gate, that inside the gate is their start point, or that the sheep can never leave on their own. The sheep still have to come in through the gate (Christ) as shown in Jn 10:7-10. It is only those who are within the gate who are the flock and believe (continuously, as it is a present active participle). Those without the gate, who have not come through Christ, refuse to believe. However, there is hope! They can still come through the gate (Christ) in faith, become Christ's sheep, and then follow Him in faith, since their unbelief is only their current, present ongoing state.

Other scripture also sheds light on the meaning of this passage:

Rom 9:6-9 - Not all those who are ethnically descended from Israel are Israel, but only those children of the promise

Rom 6:25-26 - The revelation of Jesus, the Messiah, has made the way of salvation known to every nation

Rom 10: 9-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”f

Rom 10:6-9 is a ref back to Duet 30:11-14.
"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. ...No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

It clarifies that responding in faith is not 'beyond the means' of anyone who hears the gospel. The work of Christ in revealing Himself to us on the cross has made it easy to obtain, not a far-off impossibility.

Yet still, some do not believe.

Jn 5:37-40:
"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you are not willing (present active indicative) to come to me to have life.


Nothing in Jn 10 forces the Calvinist theories of eternal security or irresistible grace. Taken in context and with other scripture alongside, Jn 10 is harmonious with other scripture and does not contradict the many passages with show that some people only temporarily believe and then later reject faith, or that Jesus' work on the cross was sufficient for all men to respond in faith, but some still choose not to believe.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Imagican above: "Christ lists MANY conditions of Salvation HIMSELF."

CHALLENGE: Copy and Paste HERE all such verses and quotes of Jesus the God-Man!

To the CONTRARY:

WHAT IS THE HEART OF JESUS' MESSAGE?

It is NOT Matthew 25:31-46:
( Jesus' JUDGMENT of NATIONS (ethnos) (sheep-goats) on the Millenium Throne in Jerusalem after His Second Coming)

It is NOT Luke 10:25-28:
( a Lawyer's correct interpretation of the Mosaic Law which for HIM would lead to "life".)

It IS the "good news / gospel" that the historical Jesus of Nazareth, the Divine Messiah, the Christ, the God-Man, the Tri-Une God miraculously was born, lived a perfect and sinless life, proclaimed that He was Deity, provided miracles to authenticate His divine ministry, set a perfect example, taught, prophesied, and was illegally tried and killed by horrible crucifixion,
sacrificing His own body by bleeding to death, He arose from the dead, made super-natural appearances, ascended into Heaven,
and promised to return.

It is a BELIEF, a FAITH and a personal realtionship with and in Jesus (and only Jesus) who can SAVE
us from eternal death and estrangement from a Tri-Une God. In two words: JESUS SAVES,

In a few Biblical statements?:

John 3:16 (NIV)...John 3
For God so (UNCONDITIONALLY) loved the world (humanity) that He gave (graced us with) his one and only Son,that whoever BELIEVES in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life....
'You must be "born again" (spiritually).'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born of the Spirit....
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert,
so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
that everyone who BELIEVES in Him may have eternal life.

Romans 10...Saved by FAITH
...the word of FAITH we are proclaiming:
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and BELIEVE in your heart (spirit/soul) that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified,
and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved....
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."...
FAITH comes from hearing the message (good news = gospel) , and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

FAITH / BELIEF is used over 200 times in the Bible as the sole requirement to finding and following God...not WORKS!
NOT: "play nice, be fair, share, , love each other, take care of each other.." You cannot "work" your way to Heaven.
Keeping the "BIG TWO" or Moses' " Ten Commandments" are following the Mosaic Law which Jesus came to FULFILL!
These "Good Works" which are ACCEPTABLE to God Follow.... after SALVATION!

John 1:17
For the Law was given through Moses;
grace and truth came through Jesus the Christ.

John 6: 28-29
Then they (believing disciples) asked him, "What must we do to do the WORKS God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The WORK of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one He has sent." ...

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for SINS once for all, the righteous/just (Jesus) for the unrighteous/unjust (us),
to bring you to God. (make you a BELIEVER!...reconciliation / salvation)
He was put to death in the body (unjust crucification)but made alive by the Spirit, (resurrection, appearances, ascension)

John 1:12,14 (NIV)
Yet to all who received him,
to those who BELIEVED in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God...
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,(Jesus)who came from the Father, full of GRACE and truth.

Acts 16: 30-31 (NIV)
Paul and Silas...He (jailer) then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, and you will be (certain ro be) saved—you and your household."

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NIV)
For it is by GRACE you have been SAVED, through FAITH—and this (BELIEF) not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God— not by WORKS, so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, (after salvation!)
which God prepared in advance for us to do.

BELIEF / FAITH that "JESUS SAVES" is: "THE HEART OF JESUS' MESSAGE".

If you want ONE "commandment" or precept to follow:

John 15...extracts
"I am the vine; you are the branches.
If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing (of spiritual value)....
"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in His love.
I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.
My (NEW) command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Jesus on "Eternal (spiritual) Life" for believers NOW!

NOTE: the word "will" is not future tense. It means: "SHALL BE"... "it is certain to!"

will in ...Greek 1722...en...in, by, with (in time).....(NOW!)

will have...Greek 2192...echo...to have...own, possess..(NOW!)

will give ...Greek 1325...didomi... to grant, give to one asking, let have ..(NOW!)


Introduction to the Principle of "Eternal Life"...a major doctrine of Christ-followers:

1 John 5 (NASB)...John: This Is Written That You May Know that Jesus "IS ETERNAL LIFE"
20 And we know that the Son of God has come,
and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true,
in His Son Jesus (the) Christ.
This is the TRUE GOD and ETERNAL LIFE.

JESUS the God-Man's OWN "WORDS" on : "ETERNAL LIFE"

John 3:13-18 (NASB)...the ONLY requirement for salvation from "eternal death": spirit-led BELIEF / FAITH...SEE ALSO: Ephesians 2
13 No one has ascended into heaven,
but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. (Divine Messiah)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; (substitutional sacrifice on the Cross)
15 so that whoever BELIEVES WILL in Him have "eternal life".
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, (TRUE new MAN)
that whoever BELIEVES in Him shall not perish, but have "eternal life".(NOW!)
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world,
but that the world might be SAVED THROUGH Him. ((NOW!)
18 He who BELIEVES in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me,
HAS "eternal life", and does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED out of death into life.

John 4:14 ...WATER = belief in Jesus as Messiah...Samaritan woman at the well
but whoever drinks of the water that I WILL give him shall never thirst;
but the water that I WILL give him
WILL become in him a well of water springing up to "eternal life".”

John 6:47,54, 35-36, 40...The Last Supper metaphor ...Truly, truly, I say to you, he who BELIEVES HAS "eternal life"....
He who eats My flesh (bread) and drinks My blood (wine) has "eternal life",
and I will raise him up on the last day.
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him WILL have "eternal life",
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10:28 ...and I give "eternal life" to them (sheep=believers),
and they will never perish; and no one WILL snatch them out of My hand.

John 17:2-3 ...Jesus' High Priestly Prayer to the Father about Jesus' followers
even as You gave Him authority over all flesh,
that to all whom You have given Him,
He MAY GIVE "eternal life".
This is "eternal life",
that they MAY KNOW You, the only true God, and
(KNOW) Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
 
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mbrandan

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There are many scriptures that teach that we can fall away or be cut off. Here is just a few. Hope this helps.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1)


Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Romans 11:22)


19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)
 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #410: "There are many scriptures that teach that we can fall away or be cut off. Here is just a few. Hope this helps"

No ...not at all. These are snippets taken out of context and MISS-interpreted. The clear WEIGHT of all the verses presented herein SUPPORT the OP.

"Fall away" = APOSTASY ....FORGIVEN!
"Cut off" = hindered...FORGIVEN!

Romans 11:22 (NASB)...Paul:to believers!
Behold then the kindness and severity of God;
to those who fell, severity,
but to you, God's kindness,
if you continue in His kindness;
otherwise you also will be "cut off".

"will be cut off" ...Phrase...Greek 1581...ekkoptō...metaphor: to cut off occasion;...be hindered (NOT LOSS of SALVATION!!)

CONTEXT: Paul is talking about ISRAEL!

Romans 11:21...for if God did not spare the natural branches (ISRAEL), He will not spare you, either.

Rom 11:23
And they (ISRAEL) also, if they do not continue in their unbelief,
will be grafted in,
for God is able to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree,
how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery
—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;


2 Cor.11:12
But what I am doing I will continue to do,
so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity
to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #410: "There are many scriptures that teach that we can fall away or be cut off. Here is just a few. Hope this helps"

No ...not at all. These are snippets taken out of context and MISS-interpreted. The clear WEIGHT of all the verses presented herein SUPPORT the OP.

"Fall away" = APOSTASY ....FORGIVEN!
"Cut off" = hindered...FORGIVEN!

Romans 11:22 (NASB)...Paul:to believers!
Behold then the kindness and severity of God;
to those who fell, severity,
but to you, God's kindness,
if you continue in His kindness;
otherwise you also will be "cut off".

"will be cut off" ...Phrase...Greek 1581...ekkoptō...metaphor: to cut off occasion;...be hindered (NOT LOSS of SALVATION!!)

CONTEXT: Paul is talking about ISRAEL!

Romans 11:21...for if God did not spare the natural branches (ISRAEL), He will not spare you, either.

Rom 11:23
And they (ISRAEL) also, if they do not continue in their unbelief,
will be grafted in,
for God is able to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree,
how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery
—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

2 Cor.11:12
But what I am doing I will continue to do,
so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity
to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting.
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Imagican above: "Christ lists MANY conditions of Salvation HIMSELF."

CHALLENGE: Copy and Paste HERE all such verses and quotes of Jesus the God-Man!

John 14:6 "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Jn 10:9 "I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture."

Condition #1: We have to come through Christ. There is no other way or person.

Jn 11:25 "Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;"

Jn 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but holds eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. "

Jn 5:24: “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me holds eternal life and into judgment will not come, but has changed places from death to life."

Note: 'Believes' in all the above verses is a present active participle - an ongoing action/state, not a one-time faith or past complete faith with ongoing effect, but a continuous faith. 'Holds' salvation is also a present active participle - an ongoing state.

Condition #2: Have abiding faith in Jesus, that He is the Son of God and is the Messiah sent by God.

John 15:4-6: "Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Lk 9:62: "Jesus replied, "No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."

Condition #3: Remain (continue) in Christ and don't go back.

Mk 10:15 "Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

Mt 18:2-4 "He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me."

Condition #4: Receive the kingdom in humility, like a child

Matt 10:32-33: "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven."

Lk 12:8: "I tell you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will also confess him before the angels of God."

Condition #5: Confess, do not deny or disown, Christ before men


There are many other 'conditions' Jesus mentions as well, such as forgiving others (Mt 18:34-35,) doing the will of the Father (Mt 7:21,) keep Christ's commands (Jn 15:10) etc. - however all these conditions go back to the main condition of 'abiding faith'. A living, active faith will lead to love and obedience. A living, active faith is humble - recognizing that we could never achieve salvation via our own righteousness and works, but only by God's gracious offering of salvation through faith in Christ and by the imputed righteousness of Christ. A living, active faith will show in one's life (fruit) and will be proclaimed before men (confession.) A living, active faith is in Christ alone, for He is the one our faith is in. A living, ongoing faith by it's nature continues - it is not temporary. A temporary faith cannot save, only an ongoing on.

What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?

As we walk in Christ through abiding faith, other virtues will build onto that (II Pet 1:5-11):

"For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Salvation comes through faith - not the other qualities that an active faith will lead to. However, these other qualities are 'necessary' in their own way, as they show that our faith is indeed alive and ongoing:

"But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.


"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

How do Christians make their "calling and election" certain?
 
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Jennifer Rothnie

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Post #410: "There are many scriptures that teach that we can fall away or be cut off. Here is just a few. Hope this helps"

No ...not at all. These are snippets taken out of context and MISS-interpreted. The clear WEIGHT of all the verses presented herein SUPPORT the OP.

"Fall away" = APOSTASY ....FORGIVEN!
"Cut off" = hindered...FORGIVEN!

Romans 11:22 (NASB)...Paul:to believers!
Behold then the kindness and severity of God;
to those who fell, severity,
but to you, God's kindness,
if you continue in His kindness;
otherwise you also will be "cut off".

"will be cut off" ...Phrase...Greek 1581...ekkoptō...metaphor: to cut off occasion;...be hindered (NOT LOSS of SALVATION!!)

The Greek iRom 11:17, Rom 11:19, and Rom 11:20 means "to break off"
Strong's Greek: 1575. ἐκκλάω (ekklaó) -- to break off

"If some of the branches - The illustration here is taken from the practice of those who ingraft trees. The useless branches, or those which bear poor fruit, are cut off, and a better kind inserted. "If some of the natural descendants of Abraham, the holy root, are cast off because they are "unfruitful, that is, because of unbelief and sin.... The process of grafting consists in inserting a scion or a young shoot into another tree. To do this, a useless limb is removed; and the ingrafted limb produces fruit according to its new nature or kind, and not according to the tree in which it is inserted. In this way a tree which bears no fruit, or whose branches are decaying, may be recovered, and become valuable. The figure of the apostle is a very vivid and beautiful one. The ancient root or stock, that of Abraham, etc. was good. The branches - the Jews in the time of the apostle - had become decayed and unfruitful, and broken off. The Gentiles had been grafted into this stock, and had restored the decayed vigor of the ancient people of God; " - Barne's Notes on the Bible

"Rightly so, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;" Rom 11:20

Ekklaó, 'broken off' is only used in these three verses in Romans. It's used once in the Sept in Lev 1:17 for severing.

It is, however, found in some other ancient Greek writings. Here is one from Plato's Republic, Book Ten, section 611(d):

"...the sea-god Glaucus whose first nature can hardly be made out by those who catch glimpses of him, because the original members of his body are broken off and mutilated and crushed and in every way marred by the waves, and other parts have attached themselves to him, accretions of shells and sea-weed and rocks, so that he is more like any wild creature than what he was by nature—even such, I say, is our vision of the soul marred by countless evils."

These verses make it very clear that some were broken off the tree (due to unbelief) while others were grafted in, but only stand by faith and should not become conceited in that position.

Rom 11:21-23 expands on this:
"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again"

Here, the term 'ekkóptō' is used. It is from ek, "out from and to" and kóptō, "cut", whereas the former term ekklaó is from ek "out from and to" and klau "to break." The context of the passage so far shows that these two terms are synonymous in use.

Ekkóptō' means "properly, cut off (out) and left to the inevitable outcome: (figuratively) entirely remove (cut off), emphasizing complete detachment (removal, severance).
Strong's Greek: 1581. ἐκκόπτω (ekkoptó) -- to cut off, cut down, cut out, fig. to frustrate

The very next verse clarifies that indeed, 'cut off' is being used in the same was as 'broken off' in this passage:

"After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!"

{A metaphorical usage such as 'you were hindered from a wild olive tree and grafted to a cultivated olive tree' would make no sense - the branch cannot be in both trees at once.}

2 Cor.11:12
But what I am doing I will continue to do,
so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity
to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting.
[/QUOTE]

What is being 'cut off' in this verse is not a branch, but 'opportunity' or 'occasion.' Hence, it does gain a figurative usage in this specific verse of 'frustrating' the desires and opportunities of those false teachers wishing to be considered equal with the apostles. However, this figurative usage is shown by the subject and context - not demanded by the verb on its own. The subject 'opportunity' is not equivalent to the subject 'branch' - and so the way they will be 'cut off' is different, not equivalent.
 
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Imagican

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It requires no effort at all. His sheep don't even consciously know they're His until they hear His voice.

You too contradict yourself. In order to respond to something you HEAR, you must LISTEN. How often do we IGNORE what we hear?

Blessings,

MEC
 
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Imagican

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Post #410: "There are many scriptures that teach that we can fall away or be cut off. Here is just a few. Hope this helps"

No ...not at all. These are snippets taken out of context and MISS-interpreted. The clear WEIGHT of all the verses presented herein SUPPORT the OP.

"Fall away" = APOSTASY ....FORGIVEN!
"Cut off" = hindered...FORGIVEN!

All indications offered in the Bible point to the NEED for repentance in order to BE forgiven. So your allusion to 'automatic' forgiveness is incorrect. The Lords prayer as instructed by Christ Himself asks that we be forgiven as we FORGIVE others. Nothing 'automatic there'. Our forgiveness HINGES on our forgiveness of OTHERS.

Romans 11:22 (NASB)...Paul:to believers!
Behold then the kindness and severity of God;
to those who fell, severity,
but to you, God's kindness,
if you continue in His kindness;
otherwise you also will be "cut off".

States right there: IF YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. Otherwise you WILL BE CUT OFF.

"will be cut off" ...Phrase...Greek 1581...ekkoptō...metaphor: to cut off occasion;...be hindered (NOT LOSS of SALVATION!!)

CONTEXT: Paul is talking about ISRAEL!

Romans 11:21...for if God did not spare the natural branches (ISRAEL), He will not spare you, either.

Rom 11:23
And they (ISRAEL) also, if they do not continue in their unbelief,
will be grafted in,
for God is able to graft them in again.

You seem to LIKE to ignore the 'ifs'.

Rom 11:24
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree,
how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery


—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation
—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

2 Cor.11:12
But what I am doing I will continue to do,
so that I may cut off opportunity from those who desire an opportunity
to be regarded just as we are in the matter about which they are boasting.

Cut off means to SEPARATE. How do you suppose that Salvation belongs to them who have willfully 'separated' themselves from God or His Son?

Blessings,

MEC
 
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RDKirk

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You too contradict yourself. In order to respond to something you HEAR, you must LISTEN. How often do we IGNORE what we hear?

Blessings,

MEC

Sorry, no. Those who are Jesus' sheep have always been His sheep, their names written in the Book of Live before the creation of the universe.
 
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Ron Gurley

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Post #416:"Cut off" means to "SEPARATE".
No...it does NOT! See Greek meanings above!

Q: How do you suppose that Salvation belongs to them who have willfully 'separated' themselves from God or His Son?

It is spiritually IMPOSSIBLE for ANYTHING to spiritually "separate" a true born again saved from The Works of the God Who saved. SPIRITUAL POSITION IN Jesus and the Body of Christ is Eternally Secure, even against the carnal Christ-followers sinning and being FORGIVEN.

John 10: NOTHING (even SELF) can take a sheep from the loving hand of the Great Shepherd/Father. See the great John 10 exposition above.

Romans 8 (NASB
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that
neitherdeath nor life,
neither angels nor demons,
neither the present nor the future,
nor any powers,
39 neither height nor depth,
nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us (believing "sheep")
from the love of God that is IN Christ Jesus our Lord.

 
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Imagican

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See, this is where we often err. You take ONE line of the Bible and try to make it concrete as if it means something that it 'can't'.

We must take ALL of scripture into account to form proper doctrine.

There are many OTHER lines that teach us that the ONE line you use cannot mean what you say it does.

You include 'self' but the scripture doesn't. The scripture indicates that 'all' includes everything BUT 'self'.

For there are many other lines of scripture that state that we DO have a 'choice' and that choice can include separation.

What the scripture you quoted offers is that no OTHER ENTITY can separate us from God. You know, like Satan, other men, etc..

But our own personal actions can certainly separate us from God or ANY beliefs or faith. Especially the 'truth'.

Blessings,

MEC
 
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Imagican

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Trying to decipher the bible by attempting to use a Greek lexicon can lead us into some pretty precarious ground. 47 scholars spent seven years hundreds of years ago translating the Greek into English to the best of their ability. Yet ONE man believes he can do a 'better job'???????? Oh my.

So what if? What IF: those scholars were divinely inspired and have DONE what no other man or men CAN do? What if God directly inspired those 47 scholars to accurately translate His Word from Greek to English? Where would one's faith truly exist if they ignored the implications and decided that 'they' could do a 'better job'?

Blessings,

MEC
 
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