Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

[Imagican]

To start with: How many are following a 'false Christ'? Certainly NO ONE believes that following a 'false Christ' will result in ANY 'reward', right?

So first, in order to answer any such questions, it must be determined that one is following the TRUE Christ.

Then there is the issue of 'following'. Can one receive Salvation by simply 'saying something'? Or is the 'proof in the pudding' so to speak?

How does one determine if they TRULY believe in God's Son? Just by 'saying some magic words'? or By FOLLOWING in 'truth and spirit'?

Faith without works is dead. Does anyone contend that they can receive Salvation WITHOUT 'faith'?

So now we are left with WORKS being the means by which we can DETERMINE 'faith'.

The 'idea' that we can 'say some magic words', let someone dunk us in stagnant water and POOF, we are SAVED, is utterly inane. It doesn't work that way.

Any gift worthy of acceptance requires MAINTENANCE. You cannot receive a worthy gift and then abuse it and expect that it will LAST.

We are told to 'work out' our Salvation in 'fear and trembling'. Why 'fear and trembling'? Because if we VALUE Salvation our worst 'fear' should be LOOSING IT. That is WHY we have been instructed to 'work out' our Salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING. If we VALUE it, the worse thing that could happen would be to LOSE it.

Our HOPE lies in Salvation. But how many indicate it is there believe they have already obtained it. If that were true, one has ALREADY obtained it, then that would destroy HOPE. So obviously those that have chosen to follow a 'false belief system' have NO CLUE as to the 'truth'. They WANT to believe what they believe because it is EASIER than the 'truth'. Their belief system eliminates ANY responsibility required of THEMSELVES. It is 'self delusion'.

The entire NT is instruction of what we MUST DO in order to receive the 'gift' that has been offered. Yes, the GIFT is pure grace. We did nothing to deserve the offer.

But acceptance of the offer requires MUCH of those that wish or place their HOPE in the achievement of Salvation. It is not something that 'just happens'. It is a LIFELONG commitment to 'follow Christ'. There is no 'magic moment' where POOR, one is 'saved'.

We are BORN again in 'truth'. And expected to "GROW UP". Paul makes it perfectly clear that REMAINING as a 'child in Christ' is a BAD thing. Feeding upon MILK one's whole life accomplishes PRACTICALLY nothing. Once we become MEN in Christ, we PUT AWAY 'childish things' and grow into the MAN Christ wishes us to BE.

And there is NO 'magic formula' to bring this into fruition. It takes TIME and it takes EFFORT and it takes perseverance. It doesn't happen by MISTAKE.

And at any point, as many often do, one can STOP following. Turn the other way. Refuse to accept what God has offered through His Son. The Bible speaks of this over and over again. It will be those that persevere till the END that will receive the reward. A CLEAR indication that it is not only POSSIBLE to lose what has been offered, but many WILL.

No, Satan cannot STEAL anything from God. But a person can WILLINGLY turn away. Like the 'dog returning to it's vomit'. These words are meant to be symbolic of a man turning away from the TRUTH and returning to their love of SELF and THIS WORLD.

Don't let anyone ROB you of what it is that you desire with 'false belief systems' eliminating YOUR responsibilities to God through His Son. If you are unwilling to WORK, you don't even deserve to EAT.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[DrBubbaLove]

To start with: How many are following a 'false Christ'? Certainly NO ONE believes that following a 'false Christ' will result in ANY 'reward', right?

So first, in order to answer any such questions, it must be determined that one is following the TRUE Christ.

Then there is the issue of 'following'. Can one receive Salvation by simply 'saying something'? Or is the 'proof in the pudding' so to speak?

How does one determine if they TRULY believe in God's Son? Just by 'saying some magic words'? or By FOLLOWING in 'truth and spirit'?

Faith without works is dead. Does anyone contend that they can receive Salvation WITHOUT 'faith'?

So now we are left with WORKS being the means by which we can DETERMINE 'faith'.

The 'idea' that we can 'say some magic words', let someone dunk us in stagnant water and POOF, we are SAVED, is utterly inane. It doesn't work that way.

Any gift worthy of acceptance requires MAINTENANCE. You cannot receive a worthy gift and then abuse it and expect that it will LAST.

We are told to 'work out' our Salvation in 'fear and trembling'. Why 'fear and trembling'? Because if we VALUE Salvation our worst 'fear' should be LOOSING IT. That is WHY we have been instructed to 'work out' our Salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING. If we VALUE it, the worse thing that could happen would be to LOSE it.

Our HOPE lies in Salvation. But how many indicate it is there believe they have already obtained it. If that were true, one has ALREADY obtained it, then that would destroy HOPE. So obviously those that have chosen to follow a 'false belief system' have NO CLUE as to the 'truth'. They WANT to believe what they believe because it is EASIER than the 'truth'. Their belief system eliminates ANY responsibility required of THEMSELVES. It is 'self delusion'.

The entire NT is instruction of what we MUST DO in order to receive the 'gift' that has been offered. Yes, the GIFT is pure grace. We did nothing to deserve the offer.

But acceptance of the offer requires MUCH of those that wish or place their HOPE in the achievement of Salvation. It is not something that 'just happens'. It is a LIFELONG commitment to 'follow Christ'. There is no 'magic moment' where POOR, one is 'saved'.

We are BORN again in 'truth'. And expected to "GROW UP". Paul makes it perfectly clear that REMAINING as a 'child in Christ' is a BAD thing. Feeding upon MILK one's whole life accomplishes PRACTICALLY nothing. Once we become MEN in Christ, we PUT AWAY 'childish things' and grow into the MAN Christ wishes us to BE.

And there is NO 'magic formula' to bring this into fruition. It takes TIME and it takes EFFORT and it takes perseverance. It doesn't happen by MISTAKE.

And at any point, as many often do, one can STOP following. Turn the other way. Refuse to accept what God has offered through His Son. The Bible speaks of this over and over again. It will be those that persevere till the END that will receive the reward. A CLEAR indication that it is not only POSSIBLE to lose what has been offered, but many WILL.

No, Satan cannot STEAL anything from God. But a person can WILLINGLY turn away. Like the 'dog returning to it's vomit'. These words are meant to be symbolic of a man turning away from the TRUTH and returning to their love of SELF and THIS WORLD.

Don't let anyone ROB you of what it is that you desire with 'false belief systems' eliminating YOUR responsibilities to God through His Son. If you are unwilling to WORK, you don't even deserve to EAT.

Blessings,

MEC

Without nit picking on every detail or even if thought in some minor disagreements, I think very well said.

 

[ToBeLoved]

To start with: How many are following a 'false Christ'? Certainly NO ONE believes that following a 'false Christ' will result in ANY 'reward', right?

So first, in order to answer any such questions, it must be determined that one is following the TRUE Christ.

Then there is the issue of 'following'. Can one receive Salvation by simply 'saying something'? Or is the 'proof in the pudding' so to speak?

How does one determine if they TRULY believe in God's Son? Just by 'saying some magic words'? or By FOLLOWING in 'truth and spirit'?

Faith without works is dead. Does anyone contend that they can receive Salvation WITHOUT 'faith'?

So now we are left with WORKS being the means by which we can DETERMINE 'faith'.

The 'idea' that we can 'say some magic words', let someone dunk us in stagnant water and POOF, we are SAVED, is utterly inane. It doesn't work that way.

Any gift worthy of acceptance requires MAINTENANCE. You cannot receive a worthy gift and then abuse it and expect that it will LAST.

We are told to 'work out' our Salvation in 'fear and trembling'. Why 'fear and trembling'? Because if we VALUE Salvation our worst 'fear' should be LOOSING IT. That is WHY we have been instructed to 'work out' our Salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING. If we VALUE it, the worse thing that could happen would be to LOSE it.

Our HOPE lies in Salvation. But how many indicate it is there believe they have already obtained it. If that were true, one has ALREADY obtained it, then that would destroy HOPE. So obviously those that have chosen to follow a 'false belief system' have NO CLUE as to the 'truth'. They WANT to believe what they believe because it is EASIER than the 'truth'. Their belief system eliminates ANY responsibility required of THEMSELVES. It is 'self delusion'.

The entire NT is instruction of what we MUST DO in order to receive the 'gift' that has been offered. Yes, the GIFT is pure grace. We did nothing to deserve the offer.

But acceptance of the offer requires MUCH of those that wish or place their HOPE in the achievement of Salvation. It is not something that 'just happens'. It is a LIFELONG commitment to 'follow Christ'. There is no 'magic moment' where POOR, one is 'saved'.

We are BORN again in 'truth'. And expected to "GROW UP". Paul makes it perfectly clear that REMAINING as a 'child in Christ' is a BAD thing. Feeding upon MILK one's whole life accomplishes PRACTICALLY nothing. Once we become MEN in Christ, we PUT AWAY 'childish things' and grow into the MAN Christ wishes us to BE.

And there is NO 'magic formula' to bring this into fruition. It takes TIME and it takes EFFORT and it takes perseverance. It doesn't happen by MISTAKE.

And at any point, as many often do, one can STOP following. Turn the other way. Refuse to accept what God has offered through His Son. The Bible speaks of this over and over again. It will be those that persevere till the END that will receive the reward. A CLEAR indication that it is not only POSSIBLE to lose what has been offered, but many WILL.

No, Satan cannot STEAL anything from God. But a person can WILLINGLY turn away. Like the 'dog returning to it's vomit'. These words are meant to be symbolic of a man turning away from the TRUTH and returning to their love of SELF and THIS WORLD.

Don't let anyone ROB you of what it is that you desire with 'false belief systems' eliminating YOUR responsibilities to God through His Son. If you are unwilling to WORK, you don't even deserve to EAT.

Blessings,

MEC

That's not what the Bible says. Christ says faith alone.

Your works based salvation says that Christ is not enough.

 

[PeaceB]

That's not what the Bible says. Christ says faith alone.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (James 2:24)

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Abiding faith will bear out in works, or 'good fruit,' as scripture repeatedly says (II Pet 1:3-11, Matt 7:15-20, Gal 5:13-25) A faith that bears no fruit cannot save - it's a dead faith.

"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?" James 2:14

That is not 'works-based salvation' - but abiding in the vine (Christ) through faith!

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." Jn 15:1-6

We do not remain in the vine by 'works' - we remain in the vine (Christ) through faith. If we reject faith and hence cut ourselves off from both nutrients (Christ) and husbandman (God the Father), then we will not bear fruit. God the Father will cut us off and we will be burned.

Note that it is not our fruit that keeps us in the vine, but remaining in Christ (through faith). Without faith, we do not bear fruit, and without fruit we are cut off. If we remain in Christ, we bear fruit, and are not cut off.

[By analogy, imagine a student in high school. As long as he remains in the college, he will be learning and ideally showing the fruit of his education. His grades don't keep him in the school, even if he gets an F he will not be kicked out, but his attendance is mandatory. But imagine that student stops attending. As a consequence, the former student stops learning and has nothing at all - not even an F - to show for himself. How long before the school expels the student?

In like manner, there is no specific fruit or amount of fruit that we need to stay in the vine. Rather, remaining in the vine (through faith) will bear fruit as a consequence of the spiritual nutrients we are receiving from Christ. (II Pet 1:3-11, Jn 15) If we do not remain in Christ, and cut ourselves off from him, we are like a branch that receives no nutrients from the vine and cannot bear any fruit whatsoever. God the Father then removes us entirely, as we are a useless branch without faith or fruit.

Rom 11:19-22 explains this further:

"You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."

We stand in the vine by faith as grafted in branches. If we do not continue in the kindness of God through faith, we will be cut off.

Our salvation is by faith, from first to last. We will bear fruit if we have faith. If we do not continue in faith, we bear no fruit. Faith is not a "dead work" - but it is 'the work that God requires.'

"Jesus replied, “This is the work of God: to believe in the One He has sent." Jn 6:29

 

[Imagican]

That's not what the Bible says. Christ says faith alone.

Your works based salvation says that Christ is not enough.

Untrue. Christ lists MANY conditions of Salvation HIMSELF. Faith without WORKS is dead. That one line destroys your stance. It cannot be 'faith alone' is faith without WORKS is dead.

Christ IS enough. The offer has been made PERFECT. What you fail to recognize or accept is YOUR perfection required. Our HOPE lies in Salvation. It is ONLY guaranteed to those that are willing to DO what it takes to RECEIVE it. Those that MEET the conditions required to accept it. We are instructed to 'run the race like we mean to WIN it'. We are also instructed to WORK OUT our Salvation in 'fear and trembling'. What you propose is utterly contrary to these words.

So you are incorrect. Whether deliberate or through ignorance. The Bible does NOT offer 'faith ALONE'. Faith is just ONE condition pertaining to the acceptance of the gift that has been FREELY OFFERED.

If I offered you a 'FREE GIFT'. All that means is that you can't PAY for it. But I can add whatever conditions to you obtaining the 'free gift' that I choose. I could say, "it's free but you must 'come get it". Or, I could say, it's free but you must pay the taxes on it. or I could say, it will only be YOURS so long as you are willing to take care of it. Or I could say, "So long as you PROMISE to feed it, care for it, maintain it's health, DO what you KNOW needs to be done in order to properly CARE for the gift."

The Bible offers MANY conditions of Salvation. You can't just CLAIM it by using some 'magic words' or by 'completing some magic ritual'. That is the way of pagan gods.

Christ requires RE birth in order to take the FIRST step towards Salvation. And like 'any birth', you start as a babe and then "GROW UP" into Christ. That can only be done by FOLLOWING. That is why we have been instructed to 'run the race like we mean to win it'. Also why we are instructed to 'work out our Salvation in fear and trembling'. Fear that if we DON'T follow as instructed, we can certainly LOOSE what it is we HOPE to obtain.

I am not God nor His Son. So I am not in the position to KNOW what's in the hearts of others. But I have been told to JUDGE others according to RIGHTEOUSNESS. And that can only be accomplished by LEARNING what the Bible teaches. it does not teach 'faith' and 'faith alone'. We cannot EARN salvation by PAYING for it. But there is much required of those who wish to obtain what it is that they HOPE for. We don't 'just hope' nor 'just believe' in order to obtain Salvation. We are instructed that there are MANY THINGS we 'must do' in order to even have a REASON to hope. And if one is unwilling to DO the things required, at best, they are building a 'false hope'.

Christ laid out what we need to DO in order for our HOPE to be legitimate. When He laid it out, many turned and walked away because they KNEW that they weren't willing to DO the things stated.

One of the things required is FOLLOWING as instructed. Either in Word or Spirit. That means that if you TRULY believe, you will FOLLOW. Whether it's God's Word or conviction of the Holy Spirit. You can't REJECT the Holy Spirit and then expect to receive ANYTHING. That includes Salvation. You can't REFUSE to follow Christ 'as directed' and expect that His death will have any effect upon your Salvation. Every instance in the Bible shows that in order to show one's love toward God, they must REPENT and FOLLOW as instructed.

You have chosen a 'belief system' that requires NOTHING on your part. Placing EVERYTHING on God. That is a God of one's own design. God has NEVER required NOTHING of those that He loves. He requires MUCH. He requires His Children that receive His blessings to OVERCOME and to be OBEDIENT. We have been GIVEN the example. Few will even TRY to follow much less SUCCEED. That is the 'way' of this world. Saying things but DOING something entirely DIFFERENT. It's called deception. Either self deception or deception of others. It's those that DO what they say that are actually living in the light instead of darkness.

Straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth unto LIFE and FEW there be that FIND it. And that doesn't even offer that ALL that 'find it' will FOLLOW it. So that means even FEWER that find it will FOLLOW it.

And note that these words are about DOING. Not about 'faith ALONE'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Ron Gurley]

Wow! Post #380 is GREAT!

"Many later reject faith, and hence all the promises of God, for various reasons"

I view that as "APOSTASY"...a falling away, getting off the path, quenching and ignoring the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit...and Apostasy can be FORGIVEN.

This OP says: A true believer in the Body of Christ cannot lose spiritual POSITION. Christ-following PRACTICE ONLY will be judged by Jesus at the "bema seat".

 

[Imagican]

If one can accept and follow, they can certainly reject and deny. Talking around in circles doesn't alter this reality.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

That old argument: "If one can 'fall away' they were NEVER saved to begin with' is utterly misleading.

NO ONE has yet to be 'saved'. For judgment has YET to take place. If one has YET to receive ETERNAL LIFE, they have YET to receive Salvation. ALL SLEEP until JUDGMENT.

So the only way this argument WORKS in favor of those that have deluded themselves is in their BELIEVING that they have ALREADY received what they HOPE for. This is an impossibility. For our HOPE lies in Salvation. If you had already received it there would be NO HOPE. For you don't HOPE to obtain what you already possess. Once you possess it, hope disappears.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Wow! Post #380 is GREAT!

"Many later reject faith, and hence all the promises of God, for various reasons"

I view that as "APOSTASY"...a falling away, getting off the path, quenching and ignoring the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit...and Apostasy can be FORGIVEN.

This OP says: A true believer in the Body of Christ cannot lose spiritual POSITION. Christ-following PRACTICE ONLY will be judged by Jesus at the "bema seat".

Not true. The Bible instructs us that the Book of LIFE will be opened upon the TIME of judgment. And whoever's name is in it will receive eternal life.

Are you saying that Salvation is something DIFFERENT than 'eternal life'?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

I view that as "APOSTASY"...a falling away, getting off the path, quenching and ignoring the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit...and Apostasy can be FORGIVEN

Apostasy in scripture is not merely backsliding, drifting away, or temporarily getting off the path. It is *deliberately* defecting from Christ, rejecting faith, and returning to condemnation under sin. For these people, scripture says "it is impossible to renew them to repentance" - since they have already been covered, and then rejected the covering, of Christ's blood. Perhaps we could take the speculation that it is only 'impossible' so long as they continue to not believe, and maybe they can be renewed to repentance if they once again come to Christ in faith - but since salvation only comes through faith, if they continue to disbelieve they certainly cannot be 'forgiven' under the blood of Christ.

What exactly does "fall away" mean in Heb 6:6?
What is the underlying Greek word used for translating "falling away" in the NKJV & "departure" in the WEB?
Can a Christian 'give back' salvation?
What does it mean in 1 Tim 4:1 that 'some will depart from faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits?'

Imagican:

Salvation is not merely a past event, nor is it only a future event. Rather, salvation is one of the 'already and not yet' concepts in scripture. Different verses say we 'have been' saved (I Cor 6:11, Tit 3:4-5, etc.), that we are 'being saved' (II Cor 2:15, I Pet 1:8-9, Phil 2:12-13, etc.) and yet others that we 'will be' saved (Rom 5:9-10, I Thess 5:8, I Cor 3:15, I Cor 5:5, etc.) A verse using salvation in the past tense doesn't contradict or overturn verses using salvation in the present reality or future fulfillment - for we are saved from the moment we first believe, continue to be saved through faith, and finally receive our final salvation from death at the judgement when we receive new, eternal bodies.

You are correct though that we do not have our final salvation - what we have is the 'hope' of that salvation as we walk by the Spirit and abide in Christ through faith. Also, we can reject the current salvation we have (living in Christ, counting ourselves dead to sin, etc.) if we reject the faith that allows us to live in Christ and return to slavery to sin.

"Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.…" Rom 8:23-25

Also, 'faith alone' is a good summation of what our salvation is through (Eph 2:8). But what is faith? As you mentioned, faith without works (fruit) is dead. It isn't through 'dead faith' that we are saved, nor is it by 'dead works'. It is by a living, active, abiding faith that we are saved. Active faith will bear out in knowledge, obedience, and other fruit as we grow in relationship with Christ (II Pet 1:3-11).

Many verses in scripture, that are sometimes misread by some as referring merely to 'one-time' faith, are clear that faith must be ongoing and active to receive all the benefits and promises that come through it, including salvation:
(Jn 3:16, Jn 12:24, Jn 3:36, I Jn 5:1, Jn 3:18, Rom 1: 16, Jn 7:38, Acts 14:22; Jn 6:47, Jn 11:25, Col 1:23, 1 Th 5:8; 2 Tim 3:8; 4:7; Heb 10:23-38, 2 Pet 1:5-10, etc.)

If we start in faith but later reject it, exchanging the eternal for the earthly and rejecting the covering blood of Christ, we can't later claim the promises of God which are only to those who believe.
(Heb 6:7-8, John 15:2-4, Matt 3:10, Matt 5:13, Heb 10:38-39, Luke 9:57-62, II Peter 1:3-9, Jude 1:12, etc.) This is why scripture so often tells us to 'hold fast' to our faith! (Heb 10:23, Rev 2:13, Heb 4:14, I Cor 15:2, Acts 14:22, Rev 14:12, I Tim 1:19, etc.]

 

[Greg Merrill]

Q: Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

DEFINITIONS:
"True born again BELIEVERS" = spiritually changed / saved per John 3 / Ephesians 2.
"spiritual POSITION" = How God views each person
"in Christ" = spiritually baptized into the "Body of Christ

POSITION:
Ephesians 2:6
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

TO BE Distinguished from PRACTICE: Believers sin after salvation. 1 John 1

SPIRITUAL BAPTISM...not to be confused with symbolic ritual water baptism
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (of Christ), whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (indwelt by)

Romans 12:5
so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

Ephesians 4:12
for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; (the "CHURCH")

THE ARGUMENT:


ETERNAL SECURITY of true salvation
aka
ONCE SAVED, AWAYS SAVED (OSAS)

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel,
for it is the power of God FOR salvation to everyone who BELIEVES,
to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Once a spirit-led BELIEVER...ALWAYS a spirit-led BELIEVER. God does not take back His Ephesian 2 GIFTS! Jesus does not undo his completed work on the Cross!..."substitutionary atonement"

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation — having also BELIEVED,
you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Once a SEALED BELIEVER...always a SEALED BELIEVER. Once God gives you SPIRITUAL POSITION, He does not change it.

2 Timothy 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings
which are able to give you the wisdom that
leads to salvation THROUGH FAITH which is in Christ Jesus.

Luke 6
47 Everyone who COMES to Me and HEARS My words and ACTS on them,
I will show you whom he is like:
48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and
laid a foundation on "THE ROCK";
and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built.
49 But the one who has heard and has not ACTED accordingly, (unbeliever)
is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation;(SINKING SAND!)
and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed,
and the ruin of that house was great."

Once a BELIEVER is built on "THE ROCK"...ALWAYS will he stay built on "THE ROCK". God is your unchanging support.

Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 78:35
And they remembered that God was their rock,
And the Most High God their Redeemer.

Read John 10 very carefully. Nothing takes believers out of the "Eternal Security" of the hand of the TRI-UNE GOD.

27 My sheep (believers) hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I GIVE eternal life to them, and they will never perish;
and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one." (in spiritual essence)

John 3:27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been GIVEN him from heaven.

Romans 8 NASB)
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing,
will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God does not want you to fear loss of your SPIRITUAL POSITION Jesus the Christ when you sin. The sins of believers are FORGIVEN, and there is cleansing upon confession (agreeing with God).

"No."

 

[Ron Gurley]

Post # 391: "Apostasy in scripture is not merely backsliding, drifting away, or temporarily getting off the path."

Nope!
APOSTASY

Jer 8:5
"Why then has this people, Jerusalem,
Turned away in continual apostasy?
They hold fast to deceit,
They refuse to return.

Hos 14:4
I will heal their apostasy,
I will love them freely,
For My anger has turned away from them.

2 Thess. 2:3
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless "THE apostasy" comes first, and the "man of lawlessness" (anti-christ) is revealed, the son of destruction,

apostasy ...Hebrew 4878...mĕshuwbah...turning away, turning back, ...backsliding

the apostasy ...Greek 646... apostasia...a falling away, defection (from truth)

Post # 391: "returning to condemnation under sin"

Nope!
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus. (saved into the Body of Christ)

Post # 391: "if they continue to disbelieve they certainly cannot be 'forgiven' under the blood of Christ."

Nope! The SPIRITUAL POSITION of true believers is covered / paid for by the "blood of Christ".

1 John 1:7..FOR SAVED BELIEVERS ONLY!

...but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Ephesians 2:13 ...But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Revelation 1:5 ...and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

Post #391: Salvation is not merely a past event (NOTE: there is NO FUTURE TENSE IN GREEK!...will/shall BE = is certain to be)

Nope! Salvation is completed action event, PAST AORIST TENSE!

John 5:24 (all NASB)...(Jesus"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life,
and does not come into judgment, but "has passed" out of death into life.(NOW!)

1 John 3:14..We (believers) know that we "have passed" out of death into life..(NOW!)

Luke 7:50...And He said to the woman (CAUGHT IN SIN), "Your faith "has saved" you; go in peace." (NOW!)

Ephesians 2: 4-5,8-10...4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 MADE US ALIVE with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions
—it is by grace (unmerited favor) you "have been saved".
8 For by GRACE (love/mercy) "you have been SAVED" through FAITH;
and that (FAITH/BELIEF) not of yourselves,
it is the (spiritual) GIFT of God;
9 NOT as a result of WORKS, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Romans 8:24 ...For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Matthew 27:42 ..."He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him.


Romans 8..For in this hope we were saved

Post 391: what is faith?

FAITH / BELIEF...spirit-led BEFORE and AFTER salvation

WORKS...spirit-led BEFORE and AFTER salvation ...VERSUS... Man's works alone to commend himself to God BEFORE salvation,

To me, "Belief" and "Faith" as used in the New Testament are almost identical in meaning and synonomous.

"Believe" occurs 152 times in 140 verses in the NASB...mostly in the NT.
G4103 pistos ~= faithful, believe, believing, true, faithfully, believer, sure
G4100 pisteuo = ~believe, commit unto, commit to (one's) trust, be committed unto, be put in trust with, be commited to one's trust, believer

John 1:12 (NASB)
...But as many as RECEIVED Him (spiritually!), to them He gave the right to become children of God ,
even to those who BELIEVE (G4100) in His NAME,...

Romans 10:9,13-15 (NASB)
...that IF you confess (agree with God) with your mouth (mind) Jesus as LORD, AND
BELIEVE (G4100) in your heart (spirit) that God (the Father) raised Him (God the Son) from the dead,
you will be (certain to be) SAVED (from eternal estrangement);
....for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE (certain to be) SAVED."
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not BELIEVED? How will they BELIEVE in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent?

"Faith" occurs 250 times in 232 verses in the NASB ...all but 4 verses in the NT.
G4102 pistis (pe'-stes) = ~faith, assurance, believe, belief, them that believe, fidelity

Hebrews 11 (NASB) ...Biblical examples of The Triumphs of FAITH...DEFINITION:
1. Now FAITH is the (spiritual) assurance of things HOPED for,
2. the CONVICTION of things (+ truths) not seen.(nor proven!)
For by it (faith) the "men of old" (OT heroes) gained approval. ( AND mankind today gains salvation)

John 6: 28-29
28 Then they (disciples) asked him, "What must we do to do the WORKS God requires?"
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to BELIEVE in the one he has SENT." ...(DEITY!)

John 3 ...extracts...Jesus to the inquiring Nicodemus
'You must be born again (spiritually).'
The wind blows wherever it pleases.
You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going.
So it is with everyone born (again from above) of the Spirit....(NEED fulfilled...a NEW LIFE... CHANGED SPIRIT)
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert,
so the Son of Man must be lifted up, (crucified ?)
that everyone who BELIEVES in him may have eternal life. (NOW!)


I believe / rely on an excellent Bible scholar's statement:

"The CONDITION(S) for SALVATION...

Salvation is conditioned solely on FAITH / (BELIEF) in Jesus The Christ.("repentance" may be a SYNONYM when understood to be a "re-thinking and a "turning around")
Nearly 200 times FAITH (or BELIEF) is stated as the single condition in the New Testament.
That spiritual FAITH/BELIEF must be placed in The Christ as one's substutute for and Savior from sin (/sins)...
There are some FALSE additions to FAITH...e.g. ritual water baptism, repentance by works, confession / purification, lordship, etc
REF: Ryrie Study Bible...expanded NASB...p. 2073


(Jesus to Mary the Magdelene caught in sin):.... "Your FAITH has saved YOU; go in peace."...(right then!)

Spiritual FAITH / BELIEF are ~SAME...a spiritual gift... much more than head knowledge or acceptance....SEE: Ephesians 2!!

(Saving) FAITH without (spiritually guided and following good ) WORKS is DEAD (judged spiritua+lly useless)...paraphrase of James 2!!

James NASB...The difficult fire-brand preacher!
To the twelve tribes...my brethren (for believers ONLY!)
...the testing of your FAITH produces endurance....
...he must ask in FAITH without any doubting...
...Listen, my beloved brethren:
did not God choose the poor (in spirit) of this world to be rich in FAITH and heirs of the kingdom (saved)which He promised to those who love Him?
...Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom....
...But the (spiritual)"wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.
...Draw near to God and He will draw near to you...


Hebrews 11:6
And without (spirit-led) FAITH it is impossible to please Him,
for he who comes to God must (spiritually) BELIEVE that He IS and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Galatians 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through FAITH in Christ Jesus, even we have BELIEVED in Christ Jesus,
so that we may be justified by FAITH in Christ
and not by the works of the Law;
since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Romans 3: 21-32...Justification by Faith
...22 even the (imputed) righteousness of God
through FAITH in Jesus Christ
for all those who BELIEVE; for there is no distinction;

1 Peter 1 (NASB)
20 For He (Jesus) was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you
21 who through Him are BELIEVERS in God,
who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory,
so that your FAITH and hope are in God.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Post #384:Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (James 2:24)

James 2:22 (NASB)
22 You see that FAITH was working with his (Abraham's) works, and as a result of the WORKS, faith was perfected; (matured)

 

[Ron Gurley]

I WAS SAVED from the PRISON of SIN in the PAST....simple "saving faith"...Ephesians 2:8

1. Substitution: "in the place of"
2. Redemption: " pay ransom, remove, and release "
3. Reconciliation: "alienation ends"
4. Propititation: "satisfaction with action"
5. Sin Nature Judged: "good overcomes bad"...nature changed
6. Justification: "view: Just-if-I..never" SINNED by the Advocate
7. Sanctification: 'process of being set aside for God, being more holy, following

I AM BEING saved from the POWER of SIN in the PRESENT
....influence of the PERMANENTLY indwelling God theHoly Spirit, guiding "battles" against the foes.
Sanctification (setting apart) is a Progressive PROCESS!!
"Good works" are guided by God the Holy Spirit to eventual "Judgement of Believer's Works."
Faith put to WORK! ...Becoming more Christ-like by following His precepts and Spiritual guidance.
Philippians 2:12 ...work out...Hebrews 12:1 ...run race

I WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of SIN in the FUTURE
...Eternity in the NEW Heavens and Earth and Jerusalwm, with the Tri-Une God!

The Spiritual Gift of Grace of God + The Spirit-Led Belief of Man = Spiritual SALVATION of Man...Past / Present / Future

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

"No."

Greg, Ron, I already responding to most those points in post #380, starting with the first definition being incomplete. (True believers haven't just changed position, but by the very nature of them being 'true believers' must be actively believing.)

In case either of you missed it:

↑
Q: Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

DEFINITIONS:
"True born again BELIEVERS" = spiritually changed / saved per John 3 / Ephesians 2.
"spiritual POSITION" = How God views each person
"in Christ" = spiritually baptized into the "Body of Christ

I would like to point out some problems with your first definition:

Firstly, true born-again believers, by the nature of the term, must BELIEVE. Without faith, they are not a believer - regardless of whether they once believed or not. *Believers* cannot lose their position in Christ, but ex-believers or former believers are not believers.

John 3:16 and many other passages also point this out - only those who believe (present active participle) shall not perish but hold (present active participle) eternal life.

Romans 1:16, which you also quote, says this as well: the gospel is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (present active participle).

Second, salvation is not merely a past event. Rather, salvation is one of the 'already and not yet' concepts in scripture. Different verses say we 'have been' saved (I Cor 6:11, Tit 3:4-5, etc.), that we are 'being saved' (II Cor 2:15, I Pet 1:8-9, Phil 2:12-13, etc.) and yet others that we 'will be' saved (Rom 5:9-10, I Thess 5:8, I Cor 3:15, I Cor 5:5, etc.) A verse using salvation in the past tense doesn't contradict or overturn verses using salvation in the present reality or future fulfillment - for we are saved from the moment we first believe, continue to be saved through faith, and finally receive our final salvation from death at the judgement when we receive new, eternal bodies.

Due to these problems with that first definition, your argument in many places assumes its own conclusions, such as 'once a spirit-led BELIEVER...ALWAYS a spirit-led BELIEVER."

Beyond the problem with the first definition, many of your support verses do not seem to be saying what you claim.

Eph 2:8: Your argument implies that faith is the gift here, and that no one can then lose faith. Yet Eph 2:8, by its grammar, is saying that the gift of God is salvation, by grace and through faith. No man could work for this - salvation is of God both in its offering and its process. Even that we are allowed to be saved through faith is a gift.

What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

Ephesians 1:13: Eph 1:13 needs to be taken along with Eph 1:14. The seal of the Holy Spirit is not to make sure we maintain faith, but is specifically a legal guarantee, along with a deposit, that those who are God’s possession (believers) will be granted the final inheritance at the judgment. These are legal terms - they say nothing of making a believer do anything or staying in a contract or never rejecting the Spirit, but are rather about God keeping His promises. If someone enters, but then rejects, the new covenant, then they also reject the seal of the Holy Spirit and Jesus as their guarantor. They cannot claim any of the promises of God, such as eternal life, for they no longer have faith, and God only wills that those who believe (continuously, not in the past) in Christ receive eternal life (John 3:13-18.)


Can a Christian 'give back' salvation?

You also claim that "Once a SEALED BELIEVER...always a SEALED BELIEVER. Once God gives you SPIRITUAL POSITION, He does not change it." Yet there are many scriptures that directly contradict this view that one must continue to believe if they started:

II Pet 2:20-22: These people had once had personal relationships with Christ (epignosis). They had escaped the world (apopheugó) - a feat only Christ's deliverance can achieve. Then, they went back again and were once more entangled with the world and overcome (héttaomai).

Luke 8:13, Matt 13:20-21: These received (welcomed) the word with joy like the believers of 1 Thess 2:13. They had no root, so could not endure through trials, and died like the foolish man of Luke 6:46-49.

Lk 8:14, Matt 13:22: These heard the word (Rom 10:14-17, Matt 11:15, ) but what they heard in the beginning did not remain in them (I John 2:24). They were 'choked/cut off because joined with' the world (sumpnigó). Unproductive faith that returns to the world is talked about it James 1:19-27, John 15:1-4, II Pet 1:3-11, Luke 9:62, etc.

Luke 12:42-46: The servant of Christ who does not wait for His coming will be 'assigned a place with the unbelievers'. This is like the foolish virgins (Matt 25:1-13).

1 Tim 1:18-20: Timothy is exhorted to hold fast (echó) to faith, the same faith others have 'thrust away from themselves' (apótheó) and suffered shipwreck (nauageó - to break, to come to ruin, to suffer shipwreck (II Cor 11:25 - Paul was in the actual ship before it broke, it was not an illusion)) concerning their faith.

Rom 11:17-24: Another branch and vine analogy, ref. Is 18:1-7. The Israelites did not remain, and were broken off. The Gentile believers were grafted in - but Rom 11:20-22 makes it quite clear we should not be smug in this newfound position, for God will not spare us if we do not continue with Him!

And others:
John 15:1-8, 1 Tim 4:1-15, II Tim 2:12, Heb 3:12-19, Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:23-39, James 1:2-12, James 1:22-25, James 5:19-20, II Pet 1:8-11, I Peter 5:8, Matt 10:22, Matt 18:21-35, Matt 24:13, Gal 5:2-12, I John 2:24, Rom 11:17-24, Rev 2:5-11, Rev 3:5, Rev 3:11, Rev 22:19, etc.)

More on some of these verses:
What exactly does "fall away" mean in Heb 6:6?
Does Hebrews 10:26 mean that a believer can lose salvation?
What does it mean in 1 Tim 4:1 that 'some will depart from faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits?'

2 Timothy 3:15 says that salvation comes only through faith, and Lk 6 is a wonderful parable of the importance of building on the rock (Christ). However, neither support your conclusion that once a believer is on the rock he must always remain on the rock. Jesus' point in Lk 6:47 is quite different! It is not those who once-upon-a-time heard him and acted who are on the rock, but those who accompany him (present middle), hear him (present active participle) and act (present active participle)! It is an ongoing state of being to be on the rock - hearing and acting as you accompany Christ.


It is true that nothing can take *believers* out of the hand of God. Yet as shown in the many passages above, not all people who receive the word with joy and believe, passing from death into life, actually continue in belief. Many later reject faith, and hence all the promises of God, for various reasons. Some reasons given in scripture are returning to the law to achieve their own righteousness, love of sin, giving into persecution, the cares of the world, etc.

It is true that believers need not fear loss of position. However, believers should have a healthy fear (not an obsession) of turning back to unbelief, which would come with loss of position. There are many warnings in scripture to this effect:

Rom 11:17-22: If we do not continue in God's kindness by standing in faith, God will not spare us and will break us off.

John 15: If we do not remain in Christ, we will be cut off and burned.

II Pet 2:20-22: If we escape the world through a personal relationship with Christ (Epignosis) but then return to the world, our final state is worse than that of an unbeliever.

Gal 5:1-2: If we do not stand firm in Christ, but return to slavery to sin (such as returning to righteousness via the law), Christ is of no value to us.

I Tim 1:19: Hold on to faith, do not reject faith and consequently suffer utter ruin.

Col 1:21-23: We are reconciled to God through Christ, but only if we continue in faith.

Since rejecting faith must be done willingly, it isn't something that we need live in fear of that we will accidentally do. Nor should we worry about losing our position by stumbling in sin. However, there should be a healthy acknowledgment by all Christians that by God's grace we are saved through faith - so we should hold fast to that faith and remain in Christ, rather than rejecting God's promises and trying to achieve salvation by our own works or means.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

You can't mix and match English translations of the word apostasy and call them equivalent. There are many terms in scripture for backsliding, drifting away, rebellion, or complete defection. Some English translations use the term 'apostasy' for several, even when they are not the same.

However, the Greek term apostasia (II Thess 2:3, Acts 21:21) is very clear that apostasy is a defection/revolt from something one was once a part of.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Strong's Greek: 646. ἀποστασία (apostasia) -- defection, revolt

Or, using your terms, a departure from a previous position.

What is the underlying Greek word used for translating "falling away" in the NKJV & "departure" in the WEB?

In Jer 8:5 and Hos 14:4, the term is closer to 'waywardness' or 'faithlessness' - not a willing rejection of God entirely or disbelief in Him, but rather not walking according to His word and going one's own way. Many Christians experience periods of 'waywardness' or 'faithlessness' in their lives - they still believe in God, but are not being obedient.

Post # 391: "returning to condemnation under sin"

Nope!
Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are IN Christ Jesus. (saved into the Body of Christ)2:1

If someone returns to condemnation under sin, they are no longer IN Christ Jesus. If they return to walking by the flesh, rather than walking by the spirit, by ceasing to abide in Christ, they are once more under condemnation. Your chosen verse does not support your view, it refutes it! As John 15:5-7 shows - if one does not remain IN Christ, then they are like a branch that withers and is cut off and burned. As II Pet 2:17-22 shows, if we escape the corruption of the world through the true knowledge (epignosis - personal relationship with Christ, not mere head knowledge) of Christ but later return to the world, our last state is worse than our first state of unbelief! Add to these the countless passages alreayd given that show that if one joins with Christ but does not abide in Him and rejects faith, their end is condemnation. Only those who actively believe are not condemned:

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned
already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son..." Jn 3"18

Believes - that is a present active participle, not a one-time past moment. If you reject belief, then are you believing? No! You disbelieve, whether you once did or not, and stand condemned.

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

Post # 391: "if they continue to disbelieve they certainly cannot be 'forgiven' under the blood of Christ."

Nope! The SPIRITUAL POSITION of true believers is covered / paid for by the "blood of Christ".

How is someone who does not believe (whether they once did or not) a "true believer?" Why do you believe someone that does not believe can be forgiven by Christ - contrary to scripture's 'salvation through faith?' It is believers (active) who are covered by the blood of Christ. Those who do not believe (whether they once did or not) stand condemned, for they cannot claim the blood of Christ as a covering without faith. Jn 3:18, etc.

It would be one thing if you were merely stating that you believe it impossible to begin, but not end in faith (the Calvinistic teaching of preservation (and perseverance) of the saints) - a subject of much debate in the church for centuries. However, you seem to be unequivocally saying that whether someone continues to believe or not is irrelevent, so long as they at least believed once, as they are counted as 'true believers' whether they now believe or not.

1 John 1:7..FOR SAVED BELIEVERS ONLY!

...but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

This again supports my view, not your contention. It is those who walk (present active verb) in the light, who hold (present active) partnership with other believers, who are continually purified (again, present active) by Christ. If one started walking in the light (through faith) but later returned to darkness by rejecting faith, then one is not among the believers of I John 1:7 but of those without the truth mentioned in I Jn 1:6.

Ephesians 2:13 ...But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

It is true that the Gentiles who believe have been brought near by the blood of Christ, vs. by the law that could not save (See the context, Eph 2:11-22.) But as Rom 11:11-27 warns, Gentile believers should not become smug in this.

"You do not support the root (Christ), but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Rom 11:19-22

Post #391: Salvation is not merely a past event (NOTE: there is NO FUTURE TENSE IN GREEK!...will/shall BE = is certain to be)

Nope! Salvation is completed action event, PAST AORIST TENSE!

You seem to have a large misunderstanding of tenses in Greek.

First, the aorist does not mean 'completed, past action' nor does it mean 'once-and-for-all' action. Even in the indicative mood, where it refers to past action, it does not always mean 'completed, one time past action.' The aorist tense contains little to no information as to the 'timing' of an event - whether it was once in the past, an ongoing event, happened several times, etc. Rather, it is concerned with the *reality* of an occurrence. Aorists are 'unmarked verbs.'

"Some grammers actually misrepresent the matter, holding that at least in the indicative mood the aorist has to do with a single action or even a "once-and-for-all" action. It is this line of argument that is false and needs to be challenged; the action may be momentary, singular, or "once-and-for-all," but it is not the use of the aorist that makes it such...""
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/jbl/1972_stagg.pdf

It is context, not the use of the aorist, that gives us clues as to whether an event was once-and-for-all, ongoing, in stages, repeated, etc.

"The aorist tense is a secondary tense, and accordingly, in the indicative mood it indicates past action. In other moods, it does not indicate absolute time, and often does not even indicate relative time.
What about kind of action? Mark it down, as its name suggests, the kind of action indicated by the aorist tense is undefined. Inasmuch as there is no definition of the kind of action, the emphasis is upon the fact of the action rather than the duration of the action. In the indicative mood, the significance is that it happened. Whether it happened over a period of time or in an instant is not indicated."

Course II, Lesson 2

Second, I am not sure why you claim that Greek has no future tense. It does. Future active, future passive, future middle, etc. Whether something will happen, or will if certain conditions are met, or merely might happen are based on the mood of the verb and what conditionals are present in the sentence.
Lesson 2

For example, take the phrase "but the one who stands firm (aorist active participle) to the end will be saved (future passive indicative)" from Mk 13:13.

The use of the indicative mood (not future tense itself) is what tells us here that this salvation is a reality. The 'stands firm' is in the aorist tense, so tells us nothing on its own about timing or duration. Yet, the prepositional phrase 'to the end' does. The reality of salvation, in this verse, is only for those who 'stand firm to the end.'

Or take the famous phrase, "whoever believes (present active participle) in him shall not perish (second aorist middle) but have (present active participle) eternal life."

Here it is the second aorist - not the future tense - speaking of a future event: that the believer 'shall not be destroyed.' The phrase shows that this eventuality of not perishing is conditional on one (actively) holding eternal life, which in turn is conditional on (actively) believing.

Or Rom 8:13: "For if you are living (present active indicative) by the flesh you are about to (present active indicative) die (present active infinitive), but if you are putting to death (present active indicative) the deeds of the flesh you will live (future middle deponent indicative)."

Whether 'living' becomes our future, here, depends on the conditional of whether we continuously put to death the deeds of the flesh or if we are living by the flesh instead.

John 5:24 (all NASB)...(Jesus"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life,
and does not come into judgment, but "has passed" out of death into life.(NOW!)

I love the NASB, and it conveys the Greek for the most part very well here - albeit not perfectly, given that the Greek sounds very wierd in English here. 'Passed out' is not an aorist here, it is actually a perfect active indicative, emphasizing an *ongoing state* to an action that began or was completed in the past.

It is "he who hears (present active participle) My Word, and believes (present active participle) Him who sent (aorist active participle) me, holds (present active indicative) life eternal, and into judgement does not come (present middle), contrariwise has changed place (perfect active indicative - representing an active, ongoing state) from death to life."

This 'changed place' is an ongoing state starting from a past event, not a punctiliar past event. Furthermore, the verse shows that the state of changed place is conditional on actively hearing and believing. Once again, scripture shows here that escaping the judgment is dependent on an active and ongoing faith.

1 John 3:14..We (believers) know that we "have passed" out of death into life..(NOW!)

"We know (perfect active indicative) that we have changed place (perfect active indicative) from death to life, because we love (present active indicative) the brethren. He who does not love (present active indicative) abides (present active indicative) in death."

I Jn 3:14 is very clear that the reason we know we have passed from death to life, and continue to be so, is our continuing love for the brethren (itself a fruit of active faith.) Yet if we do not continue to love, we abide in death instead, and no longer have that state of life!

Luke 7:50...And He said to the woman (CAUGHT IN SIN), "Your faith "has saved" you; go in peace." (NOW!)

'Saved' here is again the perfect active indicative, showing that it is an ongoing state -starting- from that first moment of faith.

It bears repeating that salvation is one of the 'already and not yet' concepts in scripture. Different verses say we 'have been' saved (I Cor 6:11, Tit 3:4-5, etc.), that we are 'being saved' (II Cor 2:15, I Pet 1:8-9, Phil 2:12-13, etc.) and yet others that we 'will be' saved (Rom 5:9-10, I Thess 5:8, I Cor 3:15, I Cor 5:5, etc.)

And as Jn 3:16 and many other passages show, this salvation is for those who believe (continuously) and hence is by faith from first to last. Unbelief cannot save. Temporary belief that later rejects saving faith cannot save.

Ephesians 2: 4-5,8-10:

The gift of God is salvation, by grace and through faith. The gift of God isn't 'faith to get salvation' - it's salvation itself. The gift of Christ revealed, gift of the Spirit to convict the world regarding sin, gift of signs, gift of evidence from nature, the gift of salvation being offered through faith at all, etc.

See: What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?

Also see:
ttp://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/a/10348/15588

"...However, the neuter gender is used for the pronoun. This is the common gender used when a phrase or clause is the antecedent. So "this" refers to the whole previous clause, "By grace ye have been saved through faith."" - Scott S.


'Have been saved' in Eph 2:5 is again the perfect passive indicative. We have salvation from the moment we first believe, we hold it as we believe, and believers will receive salvation at the Ressurection and judgment. 'Quicken' is an aorist active infinitive, which doesn't say whether the action is only one-time or an ongoing state, but we know from parallel passages that this is an ongoing reality for believers (Gal 2:20, Rom 6:11, etc.)

Romans 8:24 ...For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

This verse clarifies that believers currently have the hope of final salvation, though it hasn't been fully realized for them yet. We have not yet received our new spiritual bodies, for example. The verse before, Rom 8:23, also shows that those who (actively) hold the Spirit 'wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies' - we do not have this currently. What we have is the assurance of it - the guarantee that God will fulfill all His promises to those who believe. And in scripture, the assurance by God of something is as good as it already having happened! However, that assurance is only to those with abiding faith - not to anyone else regardless of whether they once believed or not.

FAITH / BELIEF...spirit-led BEFORE and AFTER salvation

The Greek 'pistis' (noun - faith) means belief or trust (due to persuasion) Basically, it is the inborn persuasion that something is true - not on sight, but on secondary evidence such as testimony, authority, etc. It is the assurance of things hoped for; the conviction of things unseen. The Greek pisteuó (verb - believe) means to be persuaded that something is true; it is the continued confidence that what we think is true is, in fact, true, regardless of sight.

As scripture says, 'faith comes by hearing.' (Rom 10:17) Without Jesus revealing Himself to man, the gospel spread to man, the Spirit convicting man, etc. no person would ever come to faith. Faith is our response to the evidence God has given in the person of Christ. Without faith, however, it is impossible to please God. (Heb 11:6)

John 1:12 (NASB)
...But as many as RECEIVED Him (spiritually!), to them He gave the right to become children of God ,
even to those who BELIEVE (G4100) in His NAME,...

"But as many as received (aorist active indicative) Him, to them He gave the right to become (second aorist middle) children of God - to those who believe (present active participle - ongoing!) in His name."

Those who abide in faith (not had temporary faith) are those who have the right to become children of God.

Romans 10:9,13-15 (NASB)
...that IF you confess (agree with God) with your mouth (mind) Jesus as LORD, AND
BELIEVE (G4100) in your heart (spirit) that God (the Father) raised Him (God the Son) from the dead,
you will be (certain to be) SAVED (from eternal estrangement);
....for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE (certain to be) SAVED."
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not BELIEVED? How will they BELIEVE in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent?

(Remember that aorists do not give information on whether something is once-for-all, ongoing, repeated, etc. Further context must be used.)

"If you confess (aorist active subjunctive) with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe (aorist active subjunctive) in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (future passive indicative), for with the heart a person believes (present active indicative - ongoing!) into righteousness, moreover with the mouth he acknowledges (present active indicative - ongoing profession!) into salvation. For the scripture says, whoever believes (present active participle - ongoing faith!) in Him will not be put to shame (future passive indicative)....for whoever will call (aorist middle subjunctive) on the name of the Lord will be saved (future passive indicative.)" Rom 10:9-13

The passage is very clear that belief must be continual to be saved. Abiding faith guarantees the Lord will save; temporary belief that becomes unbelief does not guarantee salvation. Whosoever believes will not perish, but have eternal life (Jn 3:16).

The CONDITION(S) for SALVATION...

Salvation is conditioned solely on FAITH / (BELIEF) in Jesus The Christ.("repentance" may be a SYNONYM when understood to be a "re-thinking and a "turning around")

This is very true. But does someone who started in faith but did not continue have any more faith than someone who never even began in faith? No! If you reject faith, you reject all the promises of God (including salvation). Salvation is by faith from first to last. Those who reject faith can't later claim salvation.

Romans 3: 21-32...Justification by Faith
...22 even the (imputed) righteousness of God
through FAITH in Jesus Christ
for all those who BELIEVE; for there is no distinction;

Who is the righteousness of God through faith for? All those who believe (present active participle). It's not for former believers.

1 Peter 1: ...who through Him are believers (present active participle) in God...

Without Christ, we would have no one to believe in and no promise of Salvation through Him. We still have to believe!

See also:
Can a Christian 'give back' salvation?
Does Hebrews 10:26 mean that a believer can lose salvation?
Can a Christian lose salvation?
Can a Christian 'give back' salvation?
http://ebible.com/answers/29040?ori=167400
http://ebible.com/answers/7716?ori=167400
http://ebible.com/answers/17319?ori=167400
http://ebible.com/answers/14614?ori=167400
http://ebible.com/answers/27255?ori=167400
http://ebible.com/answers/24715?ori=167400

 

[ToBeLoved]

How does one determine if they TRULY believe in God's Son? Just by 'saying some magic words'? or By FOLLOWING in 'truth and spirit'?

Someone who is not in Christ cannot even please God.
Furthermore, does not have the Holy Spirit, so following Christ in spirit would have been impossible. And Truth without the Holy Spirit is impossible.

So magic words and a true heart are belief and faith.

Why do some Christians make it so difficult. It's all right there in the Bible.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Untrue. Christ lists MANY conditions of Salvation HIMSELF. Faith without WORKS is dead. That one line destroys your stance. It cannot be 'faith alone' is faith without WORKS is dead.

It doesn't destroy my stance at all. First, salvation is not a work. To do a work, someone must work for something. There is no work in faith.

Second, what James is saying is that if we have the Holy Spirit that His conviction in all of our hearts is going to make some difference, we will not be the same as before, even if we are tretorous and evil. The Holy Spirit will change all of us who are saved.

If you knew James was talking about faith that is 'alive' as in used and part of God's people and who are obedient to God, will display the fruit of the spirit in some way.

Versus 'dead' faith that is not alive in the person.

So no, you are not right at all.