Can Traditional Denominations explain this?

[Vesper_Jaye✝️]

“One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:39-43‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This criminal isn’t baptized, but Jesus tells him that he will be with Him in paradise. This implies that you don’t need baptism to be saved, or at least, don’t need it in certain cases, and that he didn’t need to go to Purgatory first, or at least, not for very long. Can more traditional denominations that believe in baptism being necessary for salvation and denominations that believe in purgatory explain this? Thanks in advance

 

[Taodeching]

Can more traditional denominations that believe in baptism being necessary for salvation and denominations that believe in purgatory explain this?

The good thief is an exception in that he would have been baptized if he could. It is called the Baptism of Desire. The norm for Salvation is Baptism for everyone else.

 

[sandman]

The good thief is an exception

(thief on cross)

I believe that was one of the malefactors and not a thief that asked Jesus to remember him...


Matt 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

 

[Gundy22]

malefactor - thief - same-same

 

[klutedavid]

“One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:39-43‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This criminal isn’t baptized, but Jesus tells him that he will be with Him in paradise. This implies that you don’t need baptism to be saved, or at least, don’t need it in certain cases, and that he didn’t need to go to Purgatory first, or at least, not for very long. Can more traditional denominations that believe in baptism being necessary for salvation and denominations that believe in purgatory explain this? Thanks in advance

I would read the baptism of John, as a shadow, of the future baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:11
As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

How do you read it?

 

[HTacianas]

“One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:39-43‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This criminal isn’t baptized, but Jesus tells him that he will be with Him in paradise. This implies that you don’t need baptism to be saved, or at least, don’t need it in certain cases, and that he didn’t need to go to Purgatory first, or at least, not for very long. Can more traditional denominations that believe in baptism being necessary for salvation and denominations that believe in purgatory explain this? Thanks in advance

The thief on the cross died under the old covenant. And he was given a special dispensation by Christ.

 

[sandman]

malefactor - thief - same-same

2 thieves = (dyo lēstēs)
2 malefactors = dyo kakourgos

 

[Gundy22]

Mat 27:38

Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Mat 27:44

The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.


Mar 15:32

Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Luk 23:33

And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

John 19:18

Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst

Luk 23:42

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.


Two guys - call them thieves or malefactors - both at first deride Jesus - one repents - hence THE REPENTANT THIEF

 

[SamInNi]

The good thief is an exception in that he would have been baptized if he could. It is called the Baptism of Desire. The norm for Salvation is Baptism for everyone else.

Is the Baptism of Desire taught by the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church?

“[The Council of Trent] infallibly defined that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation, with no exceptions mentioned. Since baptism of desire is not the Sacrament of Baptism, as even the supporters of baptism of desire admit, this canon contradicts the idea that anyone can be saved by baptism of desire…

“If baptism of desire and blood were true doctrines, they would be taught as instrumental causes of first justification – but they’re not, not in Trent or anywhere in the infallible teaching of the Church” (vaticancatholic.com).

 

[GreekOrthodox]

At least in the EO, if a catechumen dies before they are baptized, they are given an Orthodox burial.

There are some instances of saints who died such as St. Varus:
Saint Varus (died ca. 307, Alexandria, Egypt) was an early Christian saint, soldier and martyr.

According to his generally reliable and authentic Acts, he was a soldier stationed in Upper Egypt who had the task of guarding a group of monks awaiting execution. When one of the monks died while incarcerated, Varus embraced the Christian faith and asked to be able to fill the place of the deceased. He was taken and hanged from a tree.

He is venerated, especially in the Russian Orthodox Church, as the patron of those died unbaptized.

 

[fhansen]

“One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:39-43‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This criminal isn’t baptized, but Jesus tells him that he will be with Him in paradise. This implies that you don’t need baptism to be saved, or at least, don’t need it in certain cases, and that he didn’t need to go to Purgatory first, or at least, not for very long. Can more traditional denominations that believe in baptism being necessary for salvation and denominations that believe in purgatory explain this? Thanks in advance

God is infinitely fair and just. The thief did the best He could with what he knew and had, with what he’d been given. If he was allowed to come down from the cross and live longer instead, then more would’ve been expected of him. More will be expected from those given more; reference Luke 12:48 for that principle.

You and I have the privilege of knowing more, and being capable of doing more because of revelation, grace, time, and opportunity. So we, also, are called to do the best we can with what we’ve been given, to do Gods will to the extent we know it and are capable of carrying it out.

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe Luke is the only Gospel-writer who tells of a "repentant thief". Other gospels just leave it that Christ's fellow-sufferers railed at Him - only Luke says one was repentant and asked Jesus to remember him

At least one other gospel writer tells us that Simon Peter cut a guy's ear off when they came to arrest Jesus. Only Luke, the doctor, tells us that Jesus put it back on.

Welcome to traditional theology! It’s good to have another Methodist with us. Speaking of St. Luke, are you familiar with the UMC’s first religious or monastic order, the Order of St. Luke?

 

[The Liturgist]

At least in the EO, if a catechumen dies before they are baptized, they are given an Orthodox burial.

There are some instances of saints who died such as St. Varus:
Saint Varus (died ca. 307, Alexandria, Egypt) was an early Christian saint, soldier and martyr.

According to his generally reliable and authentic Acts, he was a soldier stationed in Upper Egypt who had the task of guarding a group of monks awaiting execution. When one of the monks died while incarcerated, Varus embraced the Christian faith and asked to be able to fill the place of the deceased. He was taken and hanged from a tree.

He is venerated, especially in the Russian Orthodox Church, as the patron of those died unbaptized.

“One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:39-43‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This criminal isn’t baptized, but Jesus tells him that he will be with Him in paradise. This implies that you don’t need baptism to be saved, or at least, don’t need it in certain cases, and that he didn’t need to go to Purgatory first, or at least, not for very long. Can more traditional denominations that believe in baptism being necessary for salvation and denominations that believe in purgatory explain this? Thanks in advance

As @GreekOrthodox shows us with the example of St. Varus, when someone is martyred before receiving baptism but confesses Christ, this is traditionally called the Baptism of Blood.

We can, following traditional theological models, say The Good Thief was saved in this way, or via a special act of mercy on the part of our Lord, who did after all declare “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy.”

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

“One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:39-43‬ ‭ESV‬‬

This criminal isn’t baptized, but Jesus tells him that he will be with Him in paradise. This implies that you don’t need baptism to be saved, or at least, don’t need it in certain cases, and that he didn’t need to go to Purgatory first, or at least, not for very long. Can more traditional denominations that believe in baptism being necessary for salvation and denominations that believe in purgatory explain this? Thanks in advance

Faith saves you.

Baptism, the Eucharist, Confession and Absolution are all means of Grace that Jesus Christ instituted for the forgiveness of sins.

While we are justified through Christ's sacrifice, Sanctification is an on going process. Even though salvation is through faith, we must not shun our Lords commands regarding the other means of grace given for us, for the forgiveness of sins.

The good thief is a real-life version of the parable of the vineyard. Those who came to work at the 11th hour receive the same wage as those who labored all day. Faithful repentance is what saves us; the gifts of the Word and Sacraments are to help us along the way.

To reject these gifts because we think we don't need them is a grave sin in and of itself.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Faith saves you.

Baptism, the Eucharist, Confession and Absolution are all means of Grace that Jesus Christ instituted for the forgiveness of sins.

While we are justified through Christ's sacrifice, Sanctification is an on going process. Even though salvation is through faith, we must not shun our Lords commands regarding the other means of grace given for us, for the forgiveness of sins.

To follow up on Mark's post, traditional churches all believe that the various sacraments, which can vary in number depending on the definition of "sacrament", are all physical means of how God works in the church. God Himself is not limited, but instituted these for our benefit.

 

[The Liturgist]

To follow up on Mark's post, traditional churches all believe that the various sacraments, which can vary in number depending on the definition of "sacrament", are all physical means of how God works in the church. God Himself is not limited, but instituted these for our benefit.

Indeed, I would say this belief along with strict adherence to the creed and a pattern of liturgical prayer is an important “distinctive” of traditional churches.

 

[dzheremi]

From the Coptic Orthodox Church perspective:

How was the Penitent Thief saved without baptism?

When we reply to this question we say that this thief received the best baptism after whose example we all wish to be baptised. What is baptism but dying with Christ, as our teacher St. Paul says (Rom.6)? The Penitent Thief actually died with Christ and his death became a baptism. Similarly is the baptism by blood attributed to the martyrs who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and were killed at the time of persecution before they had received the grace of baptism by water. Their death became a baptism because they died with Christ like the Penitent Thief.

-- HH Pope Shenouda III of thrice-blessed memory, from his book Comparative Theology

Relatedly, there is a story preserved in the Coptic synaxarium (I can't remember which day) of a woman who was bringing her child to Alexandria to be baptized when the ship they were on encountered violent waters. Worried that the boat would sink and her baby would perish without being baptized, she baptized the baby herself in the name of the Holy Trinity. As God would have it, the boat did not sink and she was able to disembark with her baby and go to the church. Once there, the priest attempted to baptize the baby, but when it came time for the baby to be immersed (as triple immersion is our custom), the water miraculously turned hard as stone, preventing the baby's immersion. Confused, the priest asked the woman if anything had happened with the child that might explain this. The woman then confessed that she had performed the emergency baptism upon her child while en route to the church, for fear that the child would die in the storm. The priest then reminded her that there is one baptism for the remission of sins, and as the baptism had already been done (by her, in the boat), this was a sign from God that it had been accepted, and hence her baby could not be baptized again.

This story tells us of the miracles which God performs in the lives of those of great faith, but it doesn't tell us that we don't need to have our children brought to the Church to be baptized according to the normative rule and practice of the Church since time immemorial. To quote my once-bishop, HG Bishop Youssef of the Southern United States, on the example of the right-hand thief, "This thief was not physically baptized by water but he was washed (baptized) with the Blood of our Lord who died in front of him on the Holy Cross. Besides, the thief had no chance to be baptized. This was an exceptional case, and we cannot take exceptions and make them a general rule." (Emphasis mine)

 

[The Liturgist]

From the Coptic Orthodox Church perspective:

How was the Penitent Thief saved without baptism?

When we reply to this question we say that this thief received the best baptism after whose example we all wish to be baptised. What is baptism but dying with Christ, as our teacher St. Paul says (Rom.6)? The Penitent Thief actually died with Christ and his death became a baptism. Similarly is the baptism by blood attributed to the martyrs who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and were killed at the time of persecution before they had received the grace of baptism by water. Their death became a baptism because they died with Christ like the Penitent Thief.

-- HH Pope Shenouda III of thrice-blessed memory, from his book Comparative Theology

Relatedly, there is a story preserved in the Coptic synaxarium (I can't remember which day) of a woman who was bringing her child to Alexandria to be baptized when the ship they were on encountered violent waters. Worried that the boat would sink and her baby would perish without being baptized, she baptized the baby herself in the name of the Holy Trinity. As God would have it, the boat did not sink and she was able to disembark with her baby and go to the church. Once there, the priest attempted to baptize the baby, but when it came time for the baby to be immersed (as triple immersion is our custom), the water miraculously turned hard as stone, preventing the baby's immersion. Confused, the priest asked the woman if anything had happened with the child that might explain this. The woman then confessed that she had performed the emergency baptism upon her child while en route to the church, for fear that the child would die in the storm. The priest then reminded her that there is one baptism for the remission of sins, and as the baptism had already been done (by her, in the boat), this was a sign from God that it had been accepted, and hence her baby could not be baptized again.

This story tells us of the miracles which God performs in the lives of those of great faith, but it doesn't tell us that we don't need to have our children brought to the Church to be baptized according to the normative rule and practice of the Church since time immemorial. To quote my once-bishop, HG Bishop Youssef of the Southern United States, on the example of the right-hand thief, "This thief was not physically baptized by water but he was washed (baptized) with the Blood of our Lord who died in front of him on the Holy Cross. Besides, the thief had no chance to be baptized. This was an exceptional case, and we cannot take exceptions and make them a general rule." (Emphasis mine)

Merry Christmas, by the way.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This specific passage (in the NIV) is one of the two things I was taught at church that prove baptism is no more than a public display of your faith. The other is word order in verses like this one:

Acts 8:13

13 Simon himself believed and was baptized.

Baptism, the Eucharist, Confession and Absolution are means of grace given to us by Jesus Christ; the forgiveness found in these three sacraments are given not by magic, not by the piety or worthiness of those who administer them, but are imparted by Jesus Christ alone. Certainly Christ forgave this man who was saved by through his faith without Baptism, Eucharist and Absolution; but by denying the efficacy of these sacraments you are stating that there are limits on the grace and forgiveness of Christ even though he commanded us to do these things.

 

[GodLovesCats]

You could also mention Cornelius and his household from Acts ch 10. They were filled with the Spirit as the disciples were at Pentecost and spoke in tongues before they were baptized in water. Can unsaved people receive the Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues?

This is what I read Pentecostals believe: Salvation is receiving the Holy Spirit and when it happens, a new Christian will speak in tongues; after this happens, they can be baptized in water. But I have no idea what the Pentecost has to do with it.