Can the President Pardon Himself?

mark46

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How about you read the part where I talk about how the LEGAL SYSTEM LOVES ITS OWN DEFINITIONS!? Can you not read that part?

OK.

Of course, the legal system has its own definitions! What difference does not make if some dictionary has a definition of legal terms that differs from that passed by the people as law. This is true for almost every legal term. What is murder? What is assault?

What is the alternative? Pick a dictionary and use it as the legal definition?
 
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TLK Valentine

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I don't think that's true - Ford pardoned Nixon before he was impeached or even charged with anything.

From Wikipedia:
A presidential pardon of Richard Nixon (Proclamation 4311) was issued on September 8, 1974, by President of the United States Gerald Ford, which granted former president Richard Nixon a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes he might have committed against the United States while president.[1][2] In a televised broadcast to the nation, Ford, who succeeded to the presidency upon Nixon's resignation, explained that he felt the pardon was in the best interests of the country, and that the Nixon family's situation was "a tragedy in which we all have played a part. It could go on and on and on, or someone must write the end to it. I have concluded that only I can do that, and if I can, I must."[3] (Full text )​

It doesn't require an actual conviction, but in Burdick v. US (1915), the Supreme Court ruled that a pardon could be refused by the would-be recipient because accepting it constitutes an admission of guilt.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I believe that the president has the unlimited right to pardon anyone including himself.

For all intents and purposes, that would put the President above the law.

"Hey, I just committed a felony! I'm pardoned..."
"Ut-oh! Another felony! Pardoned..."
"Whoops! I did it again! Pardon me.... if you know what I mean..."

Donald can keep a stack of self-pardons in he pocket; just pull one out, date and sign it as needed.

However, as another poster has indicated, pardoning himself would likely lead to impeachment, probably by Republicans not even bothering to wait until 2019.

Impeachment for what? Whatever high crime or misdemeanor he may have committed, he's already been pardoned for it.
 
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Maren

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Impeachment for what? Whatever high crime or misdemeanor he may have committed, he's already been pardoned for it.

I think the easy answer is, for obstructing justice. Additionally, while a pardon prevents you from being prosecuted and punished (or punished further) by law enforcement and the courts, I doubt (though this might be debated by Constitutional experts) that it shields those in office from "prosecution" of their misdeeds by Congress. At least part of the reason Congress would not be stopped by a Presidential Pardon is to prevent the scenario talked about in the post before yours, where a President just keeps pardoning himself for crimes he commits (and has committed); it would defeat the separation of powers if the President could prevent Congress, though a pardon, from impeaching him.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I think the easy answer is, for obstructing justice. Additionally, while a pardon prevents you from being prosecuted and punished (or punished further) by law enforcement and the courts, I doubt (though this might be debated by Constitutional experts) that it shields those in office from "prosecution" of their misdeeds by Congress. At least part of the reason Congress would not be stopped by a Presidential Pardon is to prevent the scenario talked about in the post before yours, where a President just keeps pardoning himself for crimes he commits (and has committed); it would defeat the separation of powers if the President could prevent Congress, though a pardon, from impeaching him.

Thankfully, the Constitution does state that a pardon can't stop an impeachment... worst case scenario: Donald gets booted out of office, but pardons himself out of prison at the last minute.
 
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mark46

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It doesn't require an actual conviction, but in Burdick v. US (1915), the Supreme Court ruled that a pardon could be refused by the would-be recipient because accepting it constitutes an admission of guilt.
hmmm

When filling out any forms, a pardoned individual is able to say that they have never been convicted of a crime.
 
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mark46

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not ABOVE the law

If Trump pardons Flynn, doesn't that put him and Flynn above the law?

The "checks and balances" provided with regard to the president is impeachment, not conviction of a crime, which can be pardoned by himself or by Pence of Trump is impeached.

For all intents and purposes, that would put the President above the law.

"Hey, I just committed a felony! I'm pardoned..."
"Ut-oh! Another felony! Pardoned..."
"Whoops! I did it again! Pardon me.... if you know what I mean..."

Donald can keep a stack of self-pardons in he pocket; just pull one out, date and sign it as needed.



Impeachment for what? Whatever high crime or misdemeanor he may have committed, he's already been pardoned for it.
 
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DaisyDay

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It doesn't require an actual conviction, but in Burdick v. US (1915), the Supreme Court ruled that a pardon could be refused by the would-be recipient because accepting it constitutes an admission of guilt.
That would be an odd spectacle, Donald refusing a pardon from himself, but I wouldn't necessarily put it past him.
 
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hislegacy

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The President's reply is also part of the story.
 
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TLK Valentine

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That would be an odd spectacle, Donald refusing a pardon from himself, but I wouldn't necessarily put it past him.

The salient point is that if Donald pardons himself, it assumes that he committed an offense that needed a Presidential pardon... He can't just say, "I'm innocent, but I'm pardoning myself just in case..."

Well, he could, and his followers will probably parrot it ad infinitum...
 
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hislegacy

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The salient point is that if Donald pardons himself, it assumes that he committed an offense that needed a Presidential pardon... He can't just say, "I'm innocent, but I'm pardoning myself just in case..."

Well, he could, and his followers will probably parrot it ad infinitum...

Respectfully disagree:

The salient point is that this interesting assumption isn't coming from anything the President has done or said, and when he heard about it, he called it out. It's another report from MSM casting worst case scenarios and not based in any real life event.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Respectfully disagree:

The salient point is that this interesting assumption isn't coming from anything the President has done or said, and when he heard about it, he called it out. It's another report from MSM casting worst case scenarios and not based in any real life event.

This is Donald we're talking about -- we've come to expect the worst.
 
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mark46

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The salient point is that if Donald pardons himself, it assumes that he committed an offense that needed a Presidential pardon... He can't just say, "I'm innocent, but I'm pardoning myself just in case..."

Well, he could, and his followers will probably parrot it ad infinitum...

I believe that Trump can do just that. "innocence" is not a legal term. After being pardoned, Trump couldn't be found guilty.

The president (and most of his team) believe that the
Mueller's investigate of Trump is a witch hunt. One way to make any hunt for crimes by his team irrelevant is to pardon everyone on his team, including himself. In theory, that would move Mueller's focus to Russian actions, rather than Trump team actions, since no action by a member of a Trump team member could be brought to trial.

The primary problem with this is the political problem. The optics are terrible. The Senate and House investigations would continue, asking for the same information that Mueller was asking for. And, of course, pardoning everyone could be considered "abuse of power", something previously found to be an impeachable offense, but not necessarily involving any illegal actions.
 
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hislegacy

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One way to make any hunt for crimes by his team irrelevant is to pardon everyone on his team, including himself

But the President is not proposing nor considering that - the media is, but the President is not.
 
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