Can the non-elect ever be saved?

[Emsmom1]

Obviously not in Calvinism. But what about in other theologies, like those which teach single predestination? I think maybe the Lutherans believe in single predestination (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if God only elects for heaven but not for hell (I'm not saying this IS true, I'm saying IF it's true), is there hope for those not elected to heaven? Otherwise, what is the rationale for single predestination?

 

[HTacianas]

Obviously not in Calvinism. But what about in other theologies, like those which teach single predestination? I think maybe the Lutherans believe in single predestination (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if God only elects for heaven but not for hell (I'm not saying this IS true, I'm saying IF it's true), is there hope for those not elected to heaven? Otherwise, what is the rationale for single predestination?

There is no answer to your question. So the answer is "yes". Anyone responding to the calling of God can be saved.

 

[jasonMalloy1999]

not real we are saved if we confess our sins have a relationship and follow jesus and repent but if not we wil go to hell its our choice to follow jesus and go to heaven or dont obry god and go to hell we got free will if any say other im afriaid its a false gospel

 

[Al Touthentop]

Obviously not in Calvinism. But what about in other theologies, like those which teach single predestination? I think maybe the Lutherans believe in single predestination (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if God only elects for heaven but not for hell (I'm not saying this IS true, I'm saying IF it's true), is there hope for those not elected to heaven? Otherwise, what is the rationale for single predestination?

It was the plan of salvation, not individuals which were predestined.

It's like saying, "If I knew you were coming, I would have baked a cake."

God knew we were coming. The elect are chosen, elected, through their obedience to the gospel.

 

[Deus Vult!]

not real we are saved if we confess our sins have a relationship and follow jesus and repent but if not we wil go to hell its our choice to follow jesus and go to heaven or dont obry god and go to hell we got free will if any say other im afriaid its a false gospel

I believe I can agree with you if you explain when you wrote "we are saved..."
Are you rightly admitting then that it is not fully possible to conclude that one is saved - but should rather be said that we are being saved?

 

[Al Touthentop]

I believe I can agree with you if you explain when you wrote "we are saved..."
Are you rightly admitting then that it is not fully possible to conclude that one is saved - but should rather be said that we are being saved?

It's all in paying attention to the grammar. Every time the word saved is used it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. It would seem that there is an initial salvation (from past sins), an ongoing salvation, and an ultimate salvation. We are saved from our past sins and our relationship to God restored or "made alive again" - regenerated - when we're saved from our past sins.

But there is also the resurrection from the dead - the giving of a new physical glorified body at the 'Last Day' - which we still must strive to attain as Paul writes in Philippians. In fact he says that he didn't consider himself to have apprehended that goal at that time and that Christians must still run the race according to the rules so that they could apprehend.

I think we are permanently saved from our past sins at our baptism and regenerated. But we might commit new sins on our way to attain the resurrection, our ultimate salvation. That's why John tells us that we have to remain in the light and that if we step out of that light, we have to confess our sin and God is faithful to forgive us of any of those too, putting us back in the light or the fellowship of God. And Paul always instructed that we have to refrain from sin. If we're born of God, then we must prove to ourselves and to him by staying obedient to his commands.

 

[Deus Vult!]

It was the plan of salvation, not individuals which were predestined.

It's like saying, "If I knew you were coming, I would have baked a cake."

God knew we were coming. The elect are chosen, elected, through their obedience to the gospel.

It's all in paying attention to the grammar. Every time the word saved is used it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. It would seem that there is an initial salvation (from past sins), an ongoing salvation, and an ultimate salvation. We are saved from our past sins and our relationship to God restored or "made alive again" - regenerated - when we're saved from our past sins.

But there is also the resurrection from the dead - the giving of a new physical glorified body at the 'Last Day' - which we still must strive to attain as Paul writes in Philippians. In fact he says that he didn't consider himself to have apprehended that goal at that time and that Christians must still run the race according to the rules so that they could apprehend.

I think we are permanently saved from our past sins at our baptism and regenerated. But we might commit new sins on our way to attain the resurrection, our ultimate salvation. That's why John tells us that we have to remain in the light and that if we step out of that light, we have to confess our sin and God is faithful to forgive us of any of those too, putting us back in the light or the fellowship of God. And Paul always instructed that we have to refrain from sin. If we're born of God, then we must prove to ourselves and to him by staying obedient to his commands.

I just lightly skimmed through what you wrote.
Yes, humbly I do believe I have a firm Apostolic understanding of the word "saved" in the New Testament. I had posted that in response to somebody else and wanted that person to define what they were saying when they used the word "saved" which can imply past tense salvation that cannot be lost - a grave error common among protestants of the "once saved always saved" camp. An error that basically has them ignore every verse warning the believer that their salvation hangs in the balance of their free will. Which is common sense, but for some not so common.
We must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" -Phil(2:12)

 

[DennisTate]

Obviously not in Calvinism. But what about in other theologies, like those which teach single predestination? I think maybe the Lutherans believe in single predestination (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if God only elects for heaven but not for hell (I'm not saying this IS true, I'm saying IF it's true), is there hope for those not elected to heaven? Otherwise, what is the rationale for single predestination?

This is an exceptionally good question that has bothered me for about fifty four of my sixty years.

I actually got so turned off by a Dr. Billy Graham Hellfire And Brimstone cursade on TV back around 1965 or '66 that I became an Atheist after I was taught Evolutionary Theory in Grade three or four.

At this time I believe that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is willing to initiate new time line after new time line after new time line....... all of which fulfill Ezekiel 37
and in each of these new time lines many of those unsaved in other time lines.... get saved.

I suspect.... but I admit that I could be wrong.... but I do suspect that the testimony of Mr. Bill Wiese may be partly based on not merely a vision..... but an actually vision of himself..... in a previous time line in which he was unsaved...... and ended up in hell.... but in our time line that fulfills Ezekiel 37 and Revelation 20.... (at least to some degree).... he is radically saved and is preaching and warning the lost all over the place?????

My apologies if I am in error and am somehow preaching a false doctrine????

Warning... this is in the Physical and Life Sciences forum where you might meet all kinds of Atheists and Agnostics who wrestle with this type of question as well......

It is my firm belief that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus the Word / Logos will resort to drastic measures to give joy to the Ancient of Days the Father..... who rejoices over even one sinner who repents........


Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.

In my opinion.......
do NOT merely laugh at this man..... he really does fear Messiah Yeshua - Jesus...... and for good reason.... as can be seen in Matthew 5

 

[com7fy8]

is there hope for those not elected to heaven? Otherwise, what is the rationale for single predestination?

I would say I understand what you are saying.

God's primary focus is to have children who are like Jesus > this is the destiny of His elect > Romans 8:29. So, hopefully if anyone believes they are God's elect, their main attention is to submitting to how now God is changing us to be like Jesus and to love like Jesus.

But it does appear how a number of people only give attention to if God destines people or not. But ones on both sides of the issue do not give at least as much attention to how we need to seek God to change our character so we are like His Son.

And in case ones are more concerned about their free will or destiny doctrines, what does this mean???? Why so much attention and time away from how the scriptures feed us for becoming and loving like Christ?

Where is Paul's attention and emphasis?

Colossians 1:28-29

Philippians 2:13-16

1 Timothy 2:1-4

We must "work out our salvation with fear and trembling" -Phil(2:12)

And right after this scripture, we have >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, in case someone worships one's own will as being on its own, this is not submitting to how God works in our will to have us will what He wants.

If you are separate from God, so you can control your own choices in separation from God . . . what does this mean?

If I have trusted in Christ > Ephesians 1:12 > doesn't this mean I have denied myself with my own human will's ability? And, instead, I am trusting Christ and depending on Him . . . not depending on myself and my own ability to get myself to do something.

 

[Albion]

Isn't the answer "yes," anyone else can be saved, and it's "no" only if you believe in double predestination?

 

[DennisTate]

I would say I understand what you are saying.

God's primary focus is to have children who are like Jesus > this is the destiny of His elect > Romans 8:29. So, hopefully if anyone believes they are God's elect, their main attention is to submitting to how now God is changing us to be like Jesus and to love like Jesus.

But it does appear how a number of people only give attention to if God destines people or not. But ones on both sides of the issue do not give at least as much attention to how we need to seek God to change our character so we are like His Son.

And in case ones are more concerned about their free will or destiny doctrines, what does this mean???? Why so much attention and time away from how the scriptures feed us for becoming and loving like Christ?

Where is Paul's attention and emphasis?

Colossians 1:28-29

Philippians 2:13-16

1 Timothy 2:1-4

And right after this scripture, we have >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, in case someone worships one's own will as being on its own, this is not submitting to how God works in our will to have us will what He wants.

If you are separate from God, so you can control your own choices in separation from God . . . what does this mean?

If I have trusted in Christ > Ephesians 1:12 > doesn't this mean I have denied myself with my own human will's ability? And, instead, I am trusting Christ and depending on Him . . . not depending on myself and my own ability to get myself to do something.

My old church the Worldwide Church of God obsessed over doctrines........

and in my opinion it really got us into trouble....... or awfully close to serious trouble at the minimum........????

An apology from a former member of the Worldwide Church of God

 

[LiquidCat]

Obviously not in Calvinism. But what about in other theologies, like those which teach single predestination? I think maybe the Lutherans believe in single predestination (correct me if I'm wrong). So, if God only elects for heaven but not for hell (I'm not saying this IS true, I'm saying IF it's true), is there hope for those not elected to heaven? Otherwise, what is the rationale for single predestination?

Non elect are simply people who are unbelievers .
Jesus was clear only few be there who make it .
That will be one of the questions I would ask God after I die , my question would be " was it worth it to have majority of people damned just so you could have few people left for yourself ? "

 

[Al Touthentop]

Non elect are simply people who are unbelievers .
Jesus was clear only few be there who make it .
That will be one of the questions I would ask God after I die , my question would be " was it worth it to have majority of people damned just so you could have few people left for yourself ? "

He gave everyone a chance though. He didn't chose that so many would disobey. And it's up to us to present our lives such that people want to live as we do. We have a responsibility too.

 

[jasonMalloy1999]

I believe I can agree with you if you explain when you wrote "we are saved..."
Are you rightly admitting then that it is not fully possible to conclude that one is saved - but should rather be said that we are being saved?

i meant if we choose t follow jesus by obeying him and loving hm and having a relationship with him by talking to him as a best friend and repenting from sins the person who does that will be saved

 

[LiquidCat]

He gave everyone a chance though. He didn't chose that so many would disobey. And it's up to us to present our lives such that people want to live as we do. We have a responsibility too.

Not really , many people don't get chance to hear gospel because if they did they wouldn't believe it in first place so therefore their punishment is less than if they would and rejected it.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Not really , many people don't get chance to hear gospel because if they did they wouldn't believe it in first place so therefore their punishment is less than if they would and rejected it.

The entire bible is translated into 648 different languages. The New Testament over 1500. Many hear the gospel. But it is our actions as the church members which also draw people to a Christian life, if indeed we live one.

 

[jasonMalloy1999]

The entire bible is translated into 648 different languages. The New Testament over 1500. Many hear the gospel. But it is our actions as the church members which also draw people to a Christian life, if indeed we live one.

true

 

[renniks]

Isn't the answer "yes," anyone else can be saved, and it's "no" only if you believe in double predestination?

I fail to see how single predestination changes anything. If a select few are destined for heaven, then by default the rest are destined for hell.
I don't believe in either, BTW.

 

[LiquidCat]

The entire bible is translated into 648 different languages. The New Testament over 1500. Many hear the gospel. But it is our actions as the church members which also draw people to a Christian life, if indeed we live one.

I never met person who was drawn to God just cuz they see somebody's Christian life , either people are jelous , they think you think that you are better than them so they don't even bother or they don't believe anything at all and don't want to mention religions in conversations.

What changes mind of most people is suffering or thoughts of dying when they get older age .

 

[Al Touthentop]

I never met person who was drawn to God just cuz they see somebody's Christian life , either people are jelous , they think you think that you are better than them so they don't even bother or they don't believe anything at all and don't want to mention religions in conversations.

What changes mind of most people is suffering or thoughts of dying when they get older age .

Ok, well I have seen people drawn because of the example set by a Christian. That you haven't might have something to do with the sort of life the Christians you know live, or it has happened without your knowledge. Ignorance isn't proof of anything. I mean no offense to you personally. But just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it hasn't happened. We're commanded to live like Jesus. Was Jesus' a person whose life drew people to him? Since we're the body of Christ, and we were commanded to love each other, our neighbors and our enemies, why would this not have a positive effect on somebody witnessing our life, and why do you think this positive effect was not intended?

If a person comes into contact with a Christian and walks away feeling as if the Christian thinks he's better than him, I would suggest that the Christian was not living or acting like a Christian.