Can the law or religion save you?

EmSw

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Really. Then do what Jesus said to do in that passage. Sell all your possessions and go follow Him.

Well now, have you drunk His literal blood and eaten His literal flesh? If not, you are not a partaker of His eternal life. Since you want literal, worldly interpretations of His Word, and you have't drunk His blood nor eaten His flesh, why are you even arguing Heavenly things with me?
 
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EmSw

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Did the apostles not teach what Jesus taught?

Are you referring to what John the apostle wrote?

1 John 2:4
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Do you keep His commandments, or are you a liar?

The two sentences in bold above are contradicting each other.

Not if one knows the spiritual, inner meaning of what Jesus said.
 
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redleghunter

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Well now, have you drunk His literal blood and eaten His literal flesh? If not, you are not a partaker of His eternal life. Since you want literal, worldly interpretations of His Word, and you have't drunk His blood nor eaten His flesh, why are you even arguing Heavenly things with me?
It was actually your claim not mine.

We are not told to exegete anything; we are told to believe and do them.

“Believe and do them.” Which for your theology whatever device you are using to post here, sell it and use the proceeds to feed the poor.
 
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HatGuy

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Are you referring to what John the apostle wrote?

1 John 2:4
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Do you keep His commandments, or are you a liar?
Well I'm glad you brought 1 John 2:4 up. In the very next chapter, John very kindly qualifies what he means.

1 John 3
23 Now this is his commandment: that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he gave us the commandment. 24 And the person who keeps his commandments resides in God, and God in him. Now by this we know that God resides in us: by the Spirit he has given us.

The commandment of Jesus is to first believe and then to love. THAT is his command. Not to follow the Law.

This is why salvation is by faith and not by works of the Law.

Not if one knows the spiritual, inner meaning of what Jesus said.
No, you are literally contradicting yourself in those two paragraphs.
 
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EmSw

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It was actually your claim not mine.

Have you drunk His literal blood? Yes or no? If not, why are you wanting the cup the disciples drank to be His literal blood?

“Believe and do them.” Which for your theology whatever device you are using to post here, sell it and use the proceeds to feed the poor.

What good is selling physical, worldly things, and keeping evil in one's heart? I assure you, it is much better to rid your heart of sin. Then and only then are you able to be perfect.
 
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redleghunter

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Have you drunk His literal blood? Yes or no? If not, why are you wanting the cup the disciples drank to be His literal blood?
Again this is your issue to resolve as you don’t exegete Holy Scriptures. I do and the passage on the Lords Supper is easily explained.

Yet you plucked one verse out of context where Christ engages a rich young man.

You plucked out “keep the commandments” as if that one statement was isolated from the full context. Which ends later in the chapter.

You are treating the words of Christ as if they are a red letter haikus.

What good is selling physical, worldly things, and keeping evil in one's heart? I assure you, it is much better to rid your heart of sin. Then and only then are you able to be perfect.
Again a problem for your pluck a verse from the Gospels hermeneutics.
 
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EmSw

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Again this is your issue to resolve as you don’t exegete Holy Scriptures. I do and the passage on the Lords Supper is easily explained.

Yet you plucked one verse out of context where Christ engages a rich young man.

You plucked out “keep the commandments” as if that one statement was isolated from the full context. Which ends later in the chapter.

You are treating the words of Christ as if they are a red letter haikus.


Again a problem for your pluck a verse from the Gospels hermeneutics.

I treat Jesus' words as the words of life. You treat them like they are just ink on paper.
 
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redleghunter

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I treat Jesus' words as the words of life. You treat them like they are just ink on paper.
You are entitled to your opinion. I tend to take in the whole council of God and not clippings here and there.
 
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EmSw

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You are entitled to your opinion. I tend to take in the whole council of God and not clippings here and there.

However, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments, is not something you take seriously. You seem to take it with a grain of salt.

Now, have you drunk His literal blood? As I said before, if you haven't, you don't have eternal life. Also, have you washed your garments in His literal blood? Did the disciples drink His literal blood at the last supper?
 
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EmSw

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Again this is your issue to resolve as you don’t exegete Holy Scriptures. I do and the passage on the Lords Supper is easily explained.

Yet you plucked one verse out of context where Christ engages a rich young man.

You plucked out “keep the commandments” as if that one statement was isolated from the full context. Which ends later in the chapter.

You are treating the words of Christ as if they are a red letter haikus.

Again a problem for your pluck a verse from the Gospels hermeneutics.

I have plucked one verse out of context, huh? Let's see, I really wonder if you know the word.

Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

John 14:15
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandmentsand abide in His love.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 John 2:3
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1 John 2:4
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 3:22
and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

What have you been reading? Do you see all these instances of 'keeping His commandments'? It's not some isolated passage in Matthew 19:17. After reading all these passages, do you think we should keep His commandments? Tell me why we shouldn't keep them.

Here is why we should keep them -
1 we enter life by keeping them
2 we love Him by keeping them
3 Jesus will manifest Himself by keeping them
4 we abide in His love by keeping them
5 what matters is keeping them
6 we come to know Him by keeping them
7 we are a liar by not keeping them
8 we receive what we ask by keeping them
9 we abide in Him by keeping them
10 His commandments are not burdensome (so no excuse about "can't keep them")
11 we persevere by keeping them

Now redleghunter, prove to me why we shouldn't keep them.
 
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redleghunter

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However, if you want to enter life, keep the commandments, is not something you take seriously. You seem to take it with a grain of salt.
Of course the statement was quite serious. Jesus was challenging the young man by presenting the law of Sinai. And as such the young man must answer he had to keep them perfectly to have life. It’s what comes next which tells us the rest of the story. The man claimed to keep the commandments Jesus listed but then finds out the man is beholden to idolatry. His money and possessions were more valuable to him than selling all and following Jesus.

When the apostles heard not even a rich man can make it to heaven (the Mosaic law taught that if one kept the commandments of God they would prosper here on earth) they exclaimed “Then who can be saved.” Jesus answers. “What is impossible for man is not for God.” Which immediately points us to Mt Zion and the Cross and empty tomb for our Hope. Not the law which is our tutor and exposes our sin.



Now, have you drunk His literal blood? As I said before, if you haven't, you don't have eternal life. Also, have you washed your garments in His literal blood? Did the disciples drink His literal blood at the last supper?
Again that is your problem for picking verses out of context and running with them.

At the Last Supper Jesus was teaching the disciples what His soon to be sacrifice represented. And by eating or believing and drinking deeply of this Truth in faith we have eternal life. We know this from the context and multitude of teaching on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ throughout the OT and especially the NT.
 
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redleghunter

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I have plucked one verse out of context, huh? Let's see, I really wonder if you know the word.

Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

John 14:15
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandmentsand abide in His love.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 John 2:3
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1 John 2:4
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 3:22
and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

What have you been reading? Do you see all these instances of 'keeping His commandments'? It's not some isolated passage in Matthew 19:17. After reading all these passages, do you think we should keep His commandments? Tell me why we shouldn't keep them.

Here is why we should keep them -
1 we enter life by keeping them
2 we love Him by keeping them
3 Jesus will manifest Himself by keeping them
4 we abide in His love by keeping them
5 what matters is keeping them
6 we come to know Him by keeping them
7 we are a liar by not keeping them
8 we receive what we ask by keeping them
9 we abide in Him by keeping them
10 His commandments are not burdensome (so no excuse about "can't keep them")
11 we persevere by keeping them

Now that’s just plucking several verses out of context to meet your presupposition.

Now redleghunter, prove to me why we shouldn't keep them.
I never said we should not. Those are words you put in your own imagination.

I pointed out no one can follow the commandments perfectly other than Christ Jesus. What happens when one commandment is broken and the remainder are broken too based on the one transgression. Your theology does not have an atonement where the purpose of the life of Christ was born to be crucified and risen.

How are your sins atoned for as there is no longer a Temple Day of Atonement?
 
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EmSw

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Of course the statement was quite serious. Jesus was challenging the young man by presenting the law of Sinai. And as such the young man must answer he had to keep them perfectly to have life. It’s what comes next which tells us the rest of the story. The man claimed to keep the commandments Jesus listed but then finds out the man is beholden to idolatry. His money and possessions were more valuable to him than selling all and following Jesus.

Jesus is challenging you also. What will you say to Him? And Jesus did not challenge the man with the law of Sinai; He only told the man about the ten commandments. You need to read more carefully.

What's more important to you - keeping all your money, or giving it all up and following Him? Tell me why you are different than the young man. Why are you exempt from Jesus' words of life?

When the apostles heard not even a rich man can make it to heaven (the Mosaic law taught that if one kept the commandments of God they would prosper here on earth) they exclaimed “Then who can be saved.” Jesus answers. “What is impossible for man is not for God.” Which immediately points us to Mt Zion and the Cross and empty tomb for our Hope. Not the law which is our tutor and exposes our sin.

I've never said could save himself. He is only saved by keeping the words of life from the Savior.

'What is impossible for man is not for God' does not point to the cross and empty tomb. You are adding your personal opinion.

Again that is your problem for picking verses out of context and running with them.

At the Last Supper Jesus was teaching the disciples what His soon to be sacrifice represented. And by eating or believing and drinking deeply of this Truth in faith we have eternal life. We know this from the context and multitude of teaching on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ throughout the OT and especially the NT.

So what do you do with this verse?

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Do you dismiss it? Do you believe in order to have life, you must eat His flesh and drink His blood? How is it you will eat and drink His literal flesh and blood?

Jesus said nothing about a sacrifice at the last supper. This is something you are adding. You keep wanting it to be His literal blood, but then you say it is His Truth. Which is it?
 
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EmSw

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Now that’s just plucking several verses out of context to meet your presupposition.

I'm sorry if giving you passages from the Bible troubles you.

I never said we should not. Those are words you put in your own imagination.

I pointed out no one can follow the commandments perfectly other than Christ Jesus. What happens when one commandment is broken and the remainder are broken too based on the one transgression. Your theology does not have an atonement where the purpose of the life of Christ was born to be crucified and risen.

How are your sins atoned for as there is no longer a Temple Day of Atonement?

No one is told to keep them 'perfectly'. Where did you get this? Why are you adding to the word of God?

Jesus never said He was born to be crucified. Again, you are adding words to the Bible. You have been listening to man, and not God.

Sins are atoned by repentance and forgiveness. Study what forgiveness means. It may surprise you what it means.
 
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redleghunter

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Jesus is challenging you also. What will you say to Him? And Jesus did not challenge the man with the law of Sinai; He only told the man about the ten commandments. You need to read more carefully.
The challenge is to all of us as well. Which is what commands do we break or ignore in our damned and destitute lives without the Grace of God. Jesus is exposing the man’s sinful life as He is doing to all who read or hear the account.

And yes the Decalogue was given on Sinai.

Exodus 31:18 (KJV)
And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.


What's more important to you - keeping all your money, or giving it all up and following Him? Tell me why you are different than the young man. Why are you exempt from Jesus' words of life?

We are all damned and destitute sinners in need of the gift of salvation.

I've never said could save himself. He is only saved by keeping the words of life from the Savior.
Which he wasn’t and which we all fall short.
'What is impossible for man is not for God' does not point to the cross and empty tomb. You are adding your personal opinion.
What did Jesus do for us to give us eternal life? What is the Promise ?

So what do you do with this verse?

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Do you dismiss it? Do you believe in order to have life, you must eat His flesh and drink His blood? How is it you will eat and drink His literal flesh and blood?
No dismissal. However if you notice I already explained this:

At the Last Supper Jesus was teaching the disciples what His soon to be sacrifice represented. And by eating or believing and drinking deeply of this Truth in faith we have eternal life. We know this from the context and multitude of teaching on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ throughout the OT and especially the NT.

Jesus said nothing about a sacrifice at the last supper. This is something you are adding. You keep wanting it to be His literal blood, but then you say it is His Truth. Which is it?
Well let’s look at it.

They were celebrating the Passover meal and Jesus tells them His Body and His Blood is this new Covenant in His Blood poured out for them(Luke 22:20).

He was also called the Lamb of God. Lambs were killed for the covering of sins. Especially on the Day of Atonement.

So yes Jesus poured out His literal Blood for our sins when He was crucified. The day before he explains what will happen to him the next day and celebrated the ushering in of the New Passover or Covenant in His Blood which was not shed yet. Akin to the Passover meal which began before the lambs were slaughtered and their blood smeared on the door posts.
 
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redleghunter

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I'm sorry if giving you passages from the Bible troubles you.
Not troubling at all. Great verses by the way. It’s your application out of context and not employing the full Biblical revelation of God which concerns me.

No one is told to keep them 'perfectly'. Where did you get this? Why are you adding to the word of God?
Not adding. At the end of the sermon on the mount where Jesus teaches what we are to be like as Kingdom citizens, He qualifies the entire discourse with the following:

Matthew 5: NASB
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

There it is. The standard is we live perfect lives to enter His Kingdom.

Other than Jesus who do you know of living or has lived a perfect life?

Yes only Jesus Who sacrificed His perfect life for us.


Jesus never said He was born to be crucified. Again, you are adding words to the Bible. You have been listening to man, and not God.
Isaiah 53 is the prophecy of the suffering servant. Is this not a prophecy of the coming Messiah Jesus Christ. That He would suffer for our sins?

Sins are atoned by repentance and forgiveness. Study what forgiveness means. It may surprise you what it means.

The term Atonement comes from the Day of Atonement where there were sacrifices performed to forgive the sins of Israel and her people (See Leviticus 16). And in the book of Hebrews picking up on this teaches:

Hebrews 9: NASB

11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committedunder the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.”21And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;(NASB)


So basically saying to God forgive me for falling short of your perfection does not cut it with a Holy God. For what basis are you asking for forgiveness and according to the New Covenant what is available to atone for your sins if the Blood of Jesus Christ does not forgive our sins?

The Beloved Apostle explains where we receive forgiveness:

1 John 1: NASB

5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
 
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HatGuy

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I have plucked one verse out of context, huh? Let's see, I really wonder if you know the word.

Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

John 14:15
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandmentsand abide in His love.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 John 2:3
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1 John 2:4
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 John 3:22
and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

1 John 3:24
The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Revelation 12:17
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

What have you been reading? Do you see all these instances of 'keeping His commandments'? It's not some isolated passage in Matthew 19:17. After reading all these passages, do you think we should keep His commandments? Tell me why we shouldn't keep them.

Here is why we should keep them -
1 we enter life by keeping them
2 we love Him by keeping them
3 Jesus will manifest Himself by keeping them
4 we abide in His love by keeping them
5 what matters is keeping them
6 we come to know Him by keeping them
7 we are a liar by not keeping them
8 we receive what we ask by keeping them
9 we abide in Him by keeping them
10 His commandments are not burdensome (so no excuse about "can't keep them")
11 we persevere by keeping them

Now redleghunter, prove to me why we shouldn't keep them.
1 John 3:23 left out. Why?

You quote vs 22, and then vs 24. But why do you leave out vs 23?
 
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EmSw

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The challenge is to all of us as well. Which is what commands do we break or ignore in our damned and destitute lives without the Grace of God. Jesus is exposing the man’s sinful life as He is doing to all who read or hear the account.

Isn't that what Paul said the law does? Just as the law gives the remedy for sin, so does Jesus.

And yes the Decalogue was given on Sinai.

Exodus 31:18 (KJV)
And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Well, well, well, so Jesus told us to keep the commandments given upon Mount Sinai, in order to enter life. Do you think OT saints entered life the same way?

We are all damned and destitute sinners in need of the gift of salvation.

Very true, and Jesus gave us the remedy in keeping His commandments.

Which he wasn’t and which we all fall short.

If you fall short, why not listen and heed the words of life from the Savior? If you don't do it the way He says, you will always fall short. It's very simple, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'.

What did Jesus do for us to give us eternal life? What is the Promise ?

He gave His words of life. 'If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.' If a man has a penitent heart, and humbles himself before God, why wouldn't he want to listen to and obey the Savior? Something is missing if he dismisses, neglects, or finds excuses not to do what Jesus says about entering life.

No dismissal. However if you notice I already explained this:

At the Last Supper Jesus was teaching the disciples what His soon to be sacrifice represented. And by eating or believing and drinking deeply of this Truth in faith we have eternal life. We know this from the context and multitude of teaching on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ throughout the OT and especially the NT.

So, eating and drinking of this 'Truth', man has eternal life. Do you not see His blood signifies Truth, all Truth? It's not His literal, physical blood which man must drink to have eternal life. Here is the Truth Jesus gave us about having eternal life - 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'.

It is those who believe Jesus and His words of Life, who have everlasting life (John 3:16). Eternal life is given the same way in every generation, during OT times, during Jesus' time, and in our time.

Well let’s look at it.

They were celebrating the Passover meal and Jesus tells them His Body and His Blood is this new Covenant in His Blood poured out for them(Luke 22:20).

He was also called the Lamb of God. Lambs were killed for the covering of sins. Especially on the Day of Atonement.

So yes Jesus poured out His literal Blood for our sins when He was crucified. The day before he explains what will happen to him the next day and celebrated the ushering in of the New Passover or Covenant in His Blood which was not shed yet. Akin to the Passover meal which began before the lambs were slaughtered and their blood smeared on the door posts.

He said His body was bread, and His blood was the cup. If you are going to take it literally, why not hang some bread on the cross and pour some wine on the ground? You can't have it both ways; either Jesus was talking literally, or He wasn't. Which is it?

Now as far as atonement is concerned, let's see what Jesus said to His disciples after He rose from the dead.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

As we can see, there was no forgiveness of sins on the cross. If so, these words of Jesus were useless. But if we look at the meaning of 'remission', we get a picture of atonement. Here is what Strong's says about 'remission' -
  1. release from bondage or imprisonment

  2. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
Do you see what 'remission' is? I will enumerate them for you.
1. release from bondage
2. release from imprisonment
3. forgiveness or pardon of sins
4. letting sins go as if they were never committed
5. finally, remission of the penalty

So, what do you say atonement is? Is atonement included in any of the above meanings? No mention of physical blood is involved, nor any sacrifice, nor any death on a cross.

What is involved is repentance. If you want to get into what repentance involves, we can do that. Besides, Jesus forgave many people without any shedding of physical blood, nor any death on a cross.

Please tell me what else is needed when a man repents and is forgiven?
 
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EmSw

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Not troubling at all. Great verses by the way. It’s your application out of context and not employing the full Biblical revelation of God which concerns me.

I find it concerning when you accuse me of taking a verse out of context, when you do the very thing below. I will point it out when we get there.

Not adding. At the end of the sermon on the mount where Jesus teaches what we are to be like as Kingdom citizens, He qualifies the entire discourse with the following:

Matthew 5: NASB
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

There it is. The standard is we live perfect lives to enter His Kingdom.

Other than Jesus who do you know of living or has lived a perfect life?

Yes only Jesus Who sacrificed His perfect life for us.

Okay, we are here. You say keeping the law perfectly is given in Matthew 5:48. If only you would have read the previous verses, you would see it isn't talking about the law at all. You have taken that verse OUT OF CONTEXT. Is it okay for you to do that after you accuse me of it?

If you would like to get into what Jesus said about being perfect, we can do that if you like. But I think you can read all the verses yourself and know it isn't talking about keeping His commandments perfectly.

So I stand by my previous statement, that you have added to the word of God.

Isaiah 53 is the prophecy of the suffering servant. Is this not a prophecy of the coming Messiah Jesus Christ. That He would suffer for our sins?

For which of your sins did He suffer? Please be specific. Tell me what sins did you commit during Jesus' time on earth. Did you lie before you were born? Did you even know you committed sin before actually committing them?

The term Atonement comes from the Day of Atonement where there were sacrifices performed to forgive the sins of Israel and her people (See Leviticus 16).

See my post #98 concerning 'atonement'. Tell me how 'remission' of sins does not include 'atonement'.

So basically saying to God forgive me for falling short of your perfection does not cut it with a Holy God. For what basis are you asking for forgiveness and according to the New Covenant what is available to atone for your sins if the Blood of Jesus Christ does not forgive our sins?

Why does it not cut it with God when I ask for forgiveness for falling short? I don't understand this logic.

The basis of asking for forgiveness comes from the words of Jesus Himself. Jesus forgave many before the New Covenant was in effect. He forgave many without any physical blood, nor any death on a cross. So many people put their trust in physical blood for spiritual problems. It takes a spiritual solution for spiritual problems.

That's where His truth He gave us, comes into effect. The spiritual truth of His spiritual word gives the remedy for the spiritual sin problem. Here, I will give it again.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The remission of sins comes from repentance, a spiritual solution for a spiritual problem. As I said, look in post #98, and you will find what 'remission' is. Tell me what is involved in repentance for the remission of sins, that you want to put at the cross. What do you propose happened at the cross that isn't involved in repentance for the remission of sins?

The Beloved Apostle explains where we receive forgiveness:

1 John 1: NASB

5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

So, John says walking in the Light, cleanses us from all sin. What is walking in the Light? Is it shedding blood and dying on a cross? NO! Walking in the Light is living according to His Truth. And what is confessing our sins but repentance?
 
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EmSw

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1 John 3:23 left out. Why?

You quote vs 22, and then vs 24. But why do you leave out vs 23?

Is that all you have to say? What about all the verses which say 'keep His commandments'?

But if you like, I will include verse 23 for you; it doesn't change anything about 'keeping His commandments'.

1 John 3:23
And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Are you happy? Do you see it isn't just believing? It's also loving one another. How does a person love another? How do you see it?
 
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