Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?

[anna ~ grace]

Protestants seem to be comfortable being "reasonably certain" about a lot of things...

I'm just uncomfortable.

Keep searching, keep asking.

 

[Tree of Life]

Also, Jesus is 100% God. Jesus is 100% perfect. But that does not mean He revealed the truth that He was God to all people. Jesus did not hover above the ground and crush people from far away by using the clenching of his fists (with everyone seeing that). So just because truth is not revealed clearly to people, does not mean that something is not perfect. In fact, Jesus even deflected away from the truth that He was God to certain Pharisees by quoting OT Scripture that, "ye are gods" so as to protect His mission in going to the cross.

Do you believe that, as an English translation, the KJV could never be improved upon in any place?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Scripture is divinely inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16-17). They are as if they are the very words of God because of this fact or truth. We can see evidences proving that God's Word is holy and unlike any other book out there. Traditions, history, and other so called holy books cannot make the same claim as the Bible when it comes to the evidences in it being truly holy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you believe that, as an English translation, the KJV could never be improved upon in any place?

Of course, but just because something is not clear does not mean something is not perfect as I have already illustrated in two examples already. So you are bringing up a moot point here, my friend.

 

[Mary Meg]

But which Greek text are you using?

FWIW, this is what I usually use:

SBL Greek New Testament

I also have a copy of the NA28:

Nestle Aland Novum Testamentum Graece :: Read NA28 online

Are you using Westcott and Hort's New Testament Greek text whereby all the Modern Translations come from?

No. That's very 19th century, and not where "all the modern translations come from."

 

[Tree of Life]

Of course, but just because something is not clear does not mean something is not perfect as I have already illustrated in two examples already.

"Perfect" means that is it complete and could not have been done any better. "Perfect" means that it could not be improved upon. If the KJV could be improved upon, then it is not perfect.

 

[Tree of Life]

Jason perhaps you believe that the KJV is superior - that it is the best English translation that we have and that it is based on the most faithful textual tradition. That's fine. But that's very different from saying that it is perfect and that the KJV is God's infallible word.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"Perfect" means that is it complete and could not have been done any better. "Perfect" means that it could not be improved upon. If the KJV could be improved upon, then it is not perfect.

So you think the parables are not perfect because they do not clarify information to all?
Do you think the parables needed to be explained to everyone?

Do you think Jesus (Who is perfect) should have revealed to all in that He was God?

Again, my improvement upon the text for clarity does not mean God wants it to be clarified for all people. If He does want it to be clarified, then that His choice. But clarity does not = perfection.

 

[Tree of Life]

So you think the parables are not perfect because they do not clarify information to all?
Do you think the parables needed to be explained to everyone?

Do you think Jesus (Who is perfect) should have revealed to all in that He was God?

Again, my improvement upon the text for clarity does not mean God wants it to be clarified for all people. If He does want it to be clarified, then that His choice. But clarity does not = perfection.

If God wants something to be unclear, then it can be both unclear and perfect. In that case, any unclarity in the KJV would be exactly as it should be. Any "improvement" to make it more clear would actually be something of a corruption if God intended for it to be unclear.

So let me ask again, could the KJV as an English translation ever be improved upon in any place?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If God wants something to be unclear, then it can be both unclear and perfect. In that case, any unclarity in the KJV would be exactly as it should be. Any "improvement" to make it more clear would actually be something of a corruption if God intended for it to be unclear.

So let me ask again, could the KJV as an English translation ever be improved upon in any place?

How do you know God wants it to be improved upon in order for it be perfect?
As you already pointed out, God can intend for something to be unclear and yet still perfect.
Just because I may think it needs to be clarified does not mean it is not perfect (as I have already illustrate with two examples). In other words, "clarity" does not = "perfection." God is perfect, and yet we do not know all things about what God is currently doing. Our lack of understanding does not make something imperfect. We look through a glass darkly.

Sometimes knowledge can puff up certain people and make them feel superior to others.

 

[Tree of Life]

The Catholic church from the time of Jerome believed that the Latin Vulgate was God's official, infallible word. Latin, after all, was the world language at the time. For this reason, they believed that they could neglect the study of the original languages like Hebrew and Greek and these studies fell into disuse until the Renaissance period. During that time when people like Erasmus began to return to the Greek and Hebrew, they noticed that there were several Catholic teachings which were based on the Latin Vulgate, but had no basis in the Greek manuscripts. They pushed a return to the Greek and wanted to produce new translations. This was resisted and condemned for a long time by the Catholic church.

If the KJV is God's infallible word, may we dispense with the Hebrew and Greek? If we translate the Bible into another language, should we use the KJV as the basis of our translation like the Vulgate was used?

 

[Not David]

Prefiero el Reina-Valera de 1808, porque Reina era Luterano, como es Dios, por supuesto.

Uso la versión de 1960.

 

[Not David]

You've been thinking about this issue ever since you were 1?

I was raised that way, so technically yes

 

[Tree of Life]

How do you know God wants it to be improved upon in order for it be perfect?

I simply don't believe that any human translation can ever be perfect. I'm wondering why you think the KJV can never be improved upon.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Catholic church from the time of Jerome believed that the Latin Vulgate was God's official, infallible word. Latin, after all, was the world language at the time. For this reason, they believed that they could neglect the study of the original languages like Hebrew and Greek and these studies fell into disuse until the Renaissance period. During that time when people like Erasmus began to return to the Greek and Hebrew, they noticed that there were several Catholic teachings which were based on the Latin Vulgate, but had no basis in the Greek manuscripts. They pushed a return to the Greek and wanted to produce new translations. This was resisted and condemned for a long time by the Catholic church.

We do not have a time machine to confirm all facts in history. People can write history to color their own agenda. You could also be reading history from a person's biased opinion, as well. KJV advocates (Although, I am not as die hard as them in saying you have to read the KJV alone) also have a history involving the Catholic church and the preservation of God's Word. I would encourage you to read their version of history. Granted, I am not telling you to believe their version of history. But if history really matters to you, then you should look at both sides of history from both perspectives. I really do not believe in putting much stock in what men say because men can lie. You have to think that any religious history is the most likely to be corrupted to color a person's particular religious agenda. I would believe secular history more over religious history. Also, History is not God's Word and is infallible. I prefer Observable Science and not Historical Science. I only find Historical Science useful when it happens to align with what the Bible says. I do not use Historical Science as my lens or worldview. The Bible is my lens first. I do not look to some guy in the past and study his teachings and latch on to them and then try to enforce them into the bible. I just read and believe the Bible.

If the KJV is God's infallible word, may we dispense with the Hebrew and Greek? If we translate the Bible into another language, should we use the KJV as the basis of our translation like the Vulgate was used?

From my experience, I have discovered that there are two wrong extremes on this topic. One wrong extreme says the KJV is evil and to even use it is to be a part of a cult (That teaches that one must worship a book - Which is simply not true). The other wrong extreme says the same thing. For I have found that many KJV-Onlyists believe that you should only read the King James. Many other KJV-Onlyists will also say that the King James is not all that hard to understand, too. However, I disagree with both of these conclusions, though.

Anyways, while I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired Word of God, I do not think one should stick to just reading it alone. For I have found Modern Translations to be very helpful in updating the language (From 1600's English); However, I do not put my entire trust in Modern Translations because the devil has placed his name all over them and key doctrines have been watered down and important messages within God's Word have been neutered.

In other words, I read Modern Translations as if I am panning for gold. I have to sift thru the dirt or the garbage in order to get to the gold of the passage that lines up with the King James (and the original Hebrew and Greek).

This gold that is found within the dirt of the translations can be very useful because it reflects what is in the King James. This is the gold that people hear and are saved when they hear the gospel message. For someone can be saved just by hearing a few Bible verses about the gospel message of Jesus Christ. This gold shines thru and penetrates their heart.

Like the Parable of the Sower. Believers receive the Word of God into their heart from those passages that are talking about salvation. Words that line up with the King James. These words are sown in their heart. And if they let this Word take root in their heart by continually reading the Word of God, then they will have hidden His Word in their heart so they will not sin against Him. It will have taken root and they will not fall away due to persecution or the trials of this life.

For it only takes a few Bible verses to get someone saved. However, washing yourself with the water of the Word is going to be a lot more effective if you use the pure Word of God.

 

[A Realist]

I simply don't believe that any human translation can ever be perfect. I'm wondering why you think the KJV can never be improved upon.

I find it amusing that there's folks out there who actually believe it's (King Jimmy's Version) perfect. I've even heard some whackadoodles insist that the KJV actually corrects the manuscripts used for its translation.

 

[Tone]

No. I intentionally did not use that word. Because the Bible is not the Helper (or the Comforter). The Comforter is the Holy Spirit, who is God. The Bible is not God, and is not a person. The Bible is an inanimate collection of texts. That is not to say that the Bible is lifeless -- but the Bible is lifeless apart from the ministry of the Holy Spirit. The Bible "speaks," but only as the Holy Spirit speaks to us.

Well, yeah...it's His work. Why do you believe that creation speaks of Him as well? Could the Church exist without the creation?

*In the sense that you are your work, so too, the Bible is He...of course He Speaks through it.

 

[Tone]

So they're the foundation of the Church. They're even more so the Church than mere members.

The Church are the Ecclesia (called out ones)...Abraham is a member; one reason why the "Old Testament" is the Bible (the Writings). All those in Hebrews 11 (the "Faith" chapter) are the Church as well, which is why we have their stories in our Bibles. The Bible is the work of Elohim, through men...men filled with the Ruach ha Kodesh...The Holy Breath of Yah, just like the Scriptures testify--they are "God-Breathed".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I simply don't believe that any human translation can ever be perfect. I'm wondering why you think the KJV can never be improved upon.

If this is the case, then Catholic's fight against Sola Scriptura has won. For they believe "they" (i.e. the church) are the interpreters of Scripture. Well, they believe that you cannot disagree with their special elite holy men. They are the sole arbiters of truth. The Bible is not the authority, but they are the authority (At least that is the impression I get when I hear some of them argue). If the Bible is not perfect, then you also have to be the authority and determine what is true and not true. The Bible ceases to be the authority when a man decides what is true or not true in the Bible (seeing he thinks there is no perfect Bible). We can just make a "Choose Your Own Adventure" type Bible. WE get to decide instead of us submitting to the whole of what God's Word says.

For if God's Word truly comes from God, then it cannot be in error because the words are directly a result from God (From their creation to it's preservation). The Bible even says that His Word is pure. Unless you want to change what the Bible says in it's plain meaning, you have to keep changing it to fit what you believe the Bible should really say instead of what it plainly says.

If there is no perfect Bible, then what makes me trust some words over others? Who gets to decide what is true and what is false?

I find it a bit presumptuous for men to think that they can correct God's Word, when they should let God's Word correct them instead.

I mean, you have to stop and think for a moment. If God holds all things together within the creation pin point precision and clock work order, and yet God does not have the power to perfectly preserve His Word? I mean His Word even says that it is perfect or pure.

 

[Tone]

Bible eradication would be an incredible task these days.

Creation itself would have to be destroyed...