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Featured Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, May 1, 2019.

  1. Yes.

    17 vote(s)
    43.6%
  2. No.

    22 vote(s)
    56.4%
  1. Jonathan Mathews

    Jonathan Mathews Well-Known Member

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    The Word says "Apart from Me, you can do nothing" (John 15:5). And it says "no branch can bear fruit on it's own"(John 15:4). Without the Water of the Word, the branch withers, bears no fruit, and dies.
     
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    English is the world language. You can Google it to read a bunch of articles about it. But here is a Wikipedia article explaining it, if you are interested:

    World language - Wikipedia

    Anyways, in the English: The Bible went through a purification process. There was no standardization of grammar yet. There was no perfection of the printing process yet (so typing errors were common). The English language was not closer to becoming a global language, which was by world war 2 (1939-1945) (Note: By World War 1, English was on the rise of becoming the world language; God was one step ahead of mankind).

    Biblical reasons why I believe the KJV (Cambridge Edition - circa 1900)
    is the divinely inspired perfect Word:


    #1. God's Word claims that it is perfect:
    God's Word claims that it is perfect (Psalms 12:6) (Psalms 119:140) (Proverbs 30:5) and that it will be preserved for all generations (Psalms 12:7) and it will stand forever (Isaiah 40:8) (1 Peter 1:25). Therefore, seeing Scripture plainly states these facts, it then becomes an issue of a test of your faith in God's Word (See the test the devil gave to Eve in Genesis 3:1); For the Bereans were more noble because they compared the spoken Word of God with the written Word of God (Acts of the Apostles 17:11). In other words, if the Bereans thought the written Word was corrupt in some way they would have no way of really knowing if the spoken Word of God was true or not.

    #2. KJV vs. Modern Translations:
    A simple side by side comparison of the KJV vs Modern Translations shows us that the devil tries to place his name in the Modern Versions. Have no idea what I am talking about?

    Well, many Bible versions say that it is the dragon who is standing on the sea shore in Revelation. This is just evil and wrong.

    See Parallel Version for Revelation 13:1 here...

    Revelation 13:1 The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

    See, if you know anything about Bible language, standing on something means that you "own it"; And the devil wants to own you. In the King James, John is standing on the seashore. Yet in many Bible versions the dragon (i.e. the devil) is standing on the seashore.

    Why is this a problem?

    Let's look at...

    Genesis 22:17
    "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"

    Did you catch that? God says to Abraham that He will multiply his seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore where he will then possess the gate of his enemies (i.e. the devil and his kingdom). The apostle John who wrote Revelation was Jewish and he was the promised seed of Genesis 22 standing on the seashore in Revelation 13. It was not the dragon or the devil standing on the seashore.

    For certain Modern Versions eliminate the part of the passage in Revelation 13:1 that says that John is standing on the seashore (When he refers to himself as "I").

    Also, the devil tries to take out key points in important discussions within the Bible (Which can affect doctrine). For example: In Romans 7 Paul talks from the Jew's perspective in keeping the Old Testament Law (Which leads to problems), and he gives us the climax or heart of his message as a solution in Romans 8:1. Now, certain modern translations have eliminated "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Eliminating this passage destroys the whole thrust of Paul's argument. Walking in the Spirit is the key to being in Christ Jesus. You eliminate that and you destroy Paul's argument. Also, 1 John 5:7 is the only verse in the Bible that is the clearest and most concise teaching on the Godhead (i.e. the Trinity).

    To learn more on this study, click on the following spoiler button:

    In fact, this is not the only time the devil has tried to place his name in the Bible in exchange for something that is supposed to be sacred or holy. We see the devil tries to place his name in Modern Translations in Daniel 3.

    In Daniel 3, the Babylonian king says there is one like the "Son of God" in the fiery furnace along with Daniel's three friends. This is Jesus! Yet, in the Modern Translations it says the "son of the gods." In many false religions we can see how certain gods had mated with human females and created a hybrid. This is popular even in Greek mythology. So who saved Daniel's friends? Jesus or some hybrid like Hercules?

    Nebuchadnezzar thought this was an angel of God (singular and not plural).

    "Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God." (Daniel 3:28).

    This was not the "son of the gods (plural) (little "g")!!!

    No way Hosea! I mean, "No way José!"

    Nebuchadnezzar clearly was referencing the most high God.

    The Bible says (even something similar in your Modern Version),

    "Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, came forth of the midst of the fire." (Daniel 3:26).

    Angels are called the: "sons of God" in Job.

    The fourth person in the fire was still Jesus! The son of God. The Scriptures were still correct in their inspiration by God when they say, "and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." While Nebuchadnezzar did not know it was the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity, the Lord our God who inspired Scripture surely would have glorified the name of the Son of God (Jesus) in this instance. For it was Jesus who was in the fire with Daniel's three friends!

    Also, please check out this thread here, as well. It will help to explain this situation a little better, too.

    Jesus is the Messenger of the Lord in the Old Testament.
    (Please take note: I do not believe Jesus is an angelic being; I believe Jesus is the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity and that He is fully 100% God who took on the flesh of man).

    In Isaiah 14:12, the devil's name "Lucifer" is replaced with "Day Star" or the "Morning Star."

    Yes, I am aware that "morning stars" are angels in the book of Job.

    But Modern Translations also say this is the Shining Star or the Son of the Dawn. Why?

    Jesus says,
    "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Revelation 22:16).

    So Jesus is the BRIGHT and MORNING star!

    Yet, the individual in Isaiah 14:12 in Modern Translations is called the shining (bright) and morning star or the Day Star, etc.

    So the devil is trying to be like the most high here. He is taking a similar sounding title of Jesus in Isaiah 14:12.

    For where is the bright and morning star up in the sky?

    It is the sun.

    That is why He is called the bright and morning star because the sun is bright and rises in the morning.

    Also, Lucifer means "light bearer."

    Scripture tells us this is what it means.

    "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." (2 Corinthians 11:14).

    The word "angel" also means "messenger." So 2 Corinthians 11:14 is saying that Satan is a light messenger or light bearer. In fact, when Satan is described with having all kinds of jewelry on him, it was symbolic of who he was. Certain gemstones refract light. They are not light themselves, but they merely reflect whatever light is in existence. Gemstones are like little light bearers. So how fitting the name "Lucifer" is for the devil. Yet, Modern Translations seek to give the devil a name that is similar to Jesus. This is wrong (of course).

    #3. Biblical Numerics:
    Bible Numbers that glorify God and His Word. (Note: These are not equidistant letter sequences or numbers that attempt to get one to have a special dream, or to divine the future in some way - Striving to foretell the future is forbidden in the Bible). Numbers are something that we deal with in our everyday life and all things glorify God. So obviously the numbers in God's Word would naturally glorify Him in some way. What am I talking about? Check out this video on Numbers & the Greek New Testament.

    Sevens in the Bible - Chuck Missler:



    Also, here is a video series by Mike Hoggard that talks about the number 7 in the King James.

    King James Code - Number 7 - Mike Hoggard (Part 1):



    King James Code - Number 7 - Mike Hoggard (Part 2):



    Now, while I may not agree with Mike and Chuck on everything they teach in the Bible nor on the way they teach the Bible, but their teaching on Biblical numerics are amazing; I have found that they have made some startling discoveries. Discoveries that do not appear in the modern translations but only in the original languages (Chuck) and only in the King James (Mike).

    #4. Men have lost their voice for tampering with God's Word:
    The Bible warns us not to add to God's Word, otherwise the plagues that are written in this book (the Bible) will be added to us.

    "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18).

    Many have said that this is only talking about the book of Revelation. But men have lost their voice for adding to God's Word (Which is a plague in another part of the Bible and not Revelation).

    Check out these articles here:

    Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
    Bible Correctors lose Voice


    Concluding thoughts on the KJV vs. the Modern Translations:

    I believe the Cambridge Edition (circa 1900) is the Word of God for our world language (English) today (See this short article here). In 1611, the printing process was not perfected yet and there was no set standard in spelling yet, either. English was not close to be a world language, either.

    From my experience, I have discovered that there are two wrong extremes on this topic. One wrong extreme says the KJV is evil and to even use it is to be a part of a cult (That teaches that one must worship a book - Which is simply not true). The other wrong extreme says the same thing. For I have found that many KJV-Onlyists believe that you should only read the King James. Many other KJV-Onlyists will also say that the King James is not all that hard to understand, too. However, I disagree with both of these conclusions, though.

    Anyways, while I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired Word of God, I do not think one should stick to just reading it alone. For I have found Modern Translations to be very helpful in updating the language (From Old English); However, I do not put my entire trust in Modern Translations because the devil has placed his name all over them and key doctrines have been watered down and important messages within God's Word have been neutered.

    In other words, I read Modern Translations as if I am panning for gold. I have to sift thru the dirt or the garbage in order to get to the gold of the passage that lines up with the King James (and the original Hebrew and Greek).

    This gold that is found within the dirt of the translations can be very useful because it reflects what is in the King James. This is the gold that people hear and are saved when they hear the gospel message. For someone can be saved just by hearing a few Bible verses about the gospel message of Jesus Christ. This gold shines thru and penetrates their heart.

    Like the Parable of the Sower. Believers receive the Word of God into their heart from those passages that are talking about salvation. Words that line up with the King James. These words are sown in their heart. And if they let this Word take root in their heart by continually reading the Word of God, then they will have hidden His Word in their heart so they will not sin against Him. It will have taken root and they will not fall away due to persecution or the trials of this life.

    For it only takes a few Bible verses to get someone saved. However, washing yourself with the water of the Word is going to be a lot more effective if you use the pure Word of God.

    I hope this helps, and may God bless you.

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  3. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?" Supporter

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    I think you are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because there is potential uncertainty about the canon doesn't mean we can't be reasonably certain about many of the books.
     
  4. Mary Meg

    Mary Meg Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Protestants seem to be comfortable being "reasonably certain" about a lot of things... :confused2:

    I'm just uncomfortable.
     
  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?" Supporter

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    Unreasonable certainty doesn't exactly have a good track record throughout history.

    I wouldn't exactly say I am "comfortable", I just see that as realistic. We have to, after all, work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We still must live in the real world, enduring what Luther called tentatio or trials. Unreasonable certainty precludes that possibility altogether, therefore I am dubious it is real theology and not merely an overwrought, needlessly totalizing human ideology devoid of real spirituality.
     
  6. Mary Meg

    Mary Meg Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am struggling just to find answers that seem like real answers... :(
     
  7. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 "Excuse me... what does God need with a starship?" Supporter

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    The answer is that Christ died for you and for his sake, God forgivess you all your sins. That's basic John 3:16 stuff. You don't need to be a Bible scholar to know that. Now, as to what you do with that is between you and God. That's where tentatio enters in as you live out your calling.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I edited my previous post to you to add the following, but you may have missed it.

    English is the world language. You can Google it to read a bunch of articles about it. But here is a Wikipedia article explaining it, if you are interested:

    World language - Wikipedia
     
  9. Mary Meg

    Mary Meg Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'm sure this is very consoling to the many people who lack the educational opportunities to learn it.
     
  10. Mary Meg

    Mary Meg Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From the linked article:

    In addition to 370 million native speakers, English is estimated to have over 610 million second-language speakers
    By recent estimates, the population of earth is 7.5 billion.

    So, say roughly 1 billion people on earth can speak English. That leaves about 87% of the world's population without access to the "perfect" Scriptures, in your terms.
     
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  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Well, I never discount the poor person on the street who can serve the Lord. They are said to be rich in faith (according to the Bible). In fact, this truth would disprove pretty much the majority of scholars and super wealthy church organizations out there that hoard billions and millions of dollars. Men who dress up in fancy holy clothing, and are in multi million dollar big church buildings, with fancy relics, statues that also equal in the millions, etc.

    Anyways, nobody said they need a perfect Word of God to be saved or to even live a godly life. But the point here is that it is a promise of God keeping His Word. The point here is that there can be only ONE Word of God for our world language today. For the world as a whole does not speak biblical Hebrew, and biblical Greek. Yet, God says His Word would be preserved for all generations. God says His Word is pure. If Rick spit in a bottle of water and gave it to Bob, that bottle of water is no longer pure but it would be defiled. God's Word is pure and undefiled (Meaning it has no errors within it). Of course, this takes faith. Faith to believe God's Word is pure (as it says it is). Logic dictates that not all bibles say exactly the same thing. They are close, but they are not perfectly always saying the same thing word for word. So only one of them can be the pure Word of God in our world language today.
     
  12. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    It's also possible that none of the translations are perfect. Do you believe that the KJV could never be improved upon in terms of its translation choices?
     
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  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Obviously you didn't catch the part of the beginning of the article that says this:

    "A world language is characterized not only by the total number of speakers (native and second language speakers), but also by its geographical distribution, as well as use in international organizations and diplomatic relations."​

    Source:
    World language - Wikipedia

    English being the world language (or global language) is pretty basic knowledge. Please Google it, and there are tons of articles explaining this even more.
     
  14. Mary Meg

    Mary Meg Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As somebody who can read Greek and a little Hebrew, and knows a bit about translating languages, I don't find the KJV -- or any English translation -- all that "perfect." No translation can ever fully capture all the meaning and nuance of the original language. Hebrew in particular is a very nuanced language, with connotations buried in the words and grammar that simply can't be expressed in English without an awkwardly verbose paraphrase. Greek is the same -- even translating it into Latin, let alone to an entirely different language family like English. So much is "lost in translation." So no, there's nothing "perfect" about any translation.
     
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  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    ...
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  16. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hide The Pain

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    Do you believe that, as an English translation, the KJV could never be improved upon in any place?
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But which Greek text are you using? Are you using Westcott and Hort's New Testament Greek text (i.e. the Critical Text) whereby all the Modern Translations come from? Or are you using the line of Greek text that aligns with the KJV (King James) (i.e. the Textus Receptus). Please take note that Westcott and Hort were into the occult, and they denied certain key Christian doctrines. It just so happens (coincidentally) that their heresies just so happened to line up with older Greek texts they thought were superior and just so happened to line up with their cultic un-Christian beliefs. Modern Translations attack (waters down) the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, holiness, the blood atonement, etc.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Lack of clarity in what is said does not mean something is not perfect. Jesus spoke in parables because the mysteries of the Kingdom were not for everyone. I also believe that God allowed for Modern Translations to exist because they can be helpful to update the 1600's English at certain times. But in many places there is an attack upon God's Word. So we have to be careful to put our trust in the right Bible. For not all bibles say exactly the same thing.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Also, Jesus is 100% God. Jesus is 100% perfect. But that does not mean He revealed the truth that He was God to all people. Jesus did not hover above the ground and crush people from far away by using the clenching of his fists (with everyone seeing that). So just because truth is not revealed clearly to people, does not mean that something is not perfect. In fact, Jesus even deflected away from the truth that He was God to certain Pharisees by quoting OT Scripture that, "ye are gods" so as to protect His mission in going to the cross.
     
  20. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    True, but there is no contradiction there.

    The Word first lived in the Apostles, before they committed the sayings and doings of Christ to paper.
     
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