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Can someone help me verify if this is an accurate writing?

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by CanIHunt, May 14, 2015.

  1. CanIHunt

    CanIHunt Newbie

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    “In three respects-as Daughter, as Mother, and as Spouse of God-the Holy Virgin is exalted to a certain equality with the Father, to a certain superiority over the Son, to a certain nearness to the Holy Spirit” (“The Immaculate Conception,” Malou, Bishop of Brouges).
     
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  2. GoingByzantine

    GoingByzantine Seeking the Narrow Road Supporter

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    I have got to say that on first glance this sounds like dangerous theology, and a potential affront to the trinity.
     
  3. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic Supporter

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    i would agree that this sounds rather overboard to me.
    respect yes; but not equality or superiority, especially since she refers to herself as the handmaiden of the Lord.
     
  4. LivingWordUnity

    LivingWordUnity Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic

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    I don't know if the quote is authentic. But if it is, how did he go on to explain it? Ontologically, the Virgin Mary, being God's creation, is not superior to God and is not close to having equality with God. But it sounds like the bishop is talking only about relational roles as opposed to ontology. God did exalt Mary and chose her to be His Mother. And Jesus (God) was obedient to His parents (Luke 2:51). These relational roles were chosen by God. He chose to humble Himself to be born to the Virgin Mary and to honor her as His Mother. So the quote would have to be taken in the context of Jesus being true God and also true Man and the Virgin Mary's corresponding relationship to the Holy Trinity in light of this.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2015
  5. stray bullet

    stray bullet God Made Me A Skeptic

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    The quote is misleading and that is why you have found it I guess.

    Mary is not God and is not exalted as God. What this is saying is that Mary, by virtue of her relationship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, has a Triune relationship with the Trinity unique among all living things. In western theology, the persons of the Trinity are known by their relationships to each other: that is, there is the Father, from whom is the Son, and from both is the Holy Spirit.

    Thus, Mary is exalted by her relationship with God... of course this requires an integration of Post-Modern philosophy and Thomastic.
     
  6. LivingWordUnity

    LivingWordUnity Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic

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    I think the quote is probably taken out of context. If it is an authentic quote from a bishop he had to have said more about it than just that one sentence.
     
  7. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    This is found in an Orthodox book written with a false understanding of Roman Catholic teaching, and it spreads their heretical understanding to others, demonstrating our faith in a false light. http://ortodoks.dk/ortodoks-tro-og-...odox-veneration-of-mary-the-birthgiver-of-god.
    Here is the exact quote:


    According to the commentary of the Latin theologians, “Mary is an associate with our Redeemer as Co-Redemptress” (see Lebedev, op. cit. p. 273). “In the act of Redemption, She, in a certain way, helped Christ” (Catechism of Dr. Weimar). “The Mother of God,” writes Dr. Lentz, “bore the burden of Her martyrdom not merely courageously, but also joyfully, even though with a broken heart” (Mariology of Dr. Lentz). For this reason, She is “a complement of the Holy Trinity,” and “just as Her Son is the only Intermediary chosen by God between His offended majesty and sinful men, so also, precisely, –the chief Mediatress placed by Him between His Son and us is the Blessed Virgin.” “In three respects-as Daughter, as Mother, and as Spouse of God-the Holy Virgin is exalted to a certain equality with the Father, to a certain superiority over the Son, to a certain nearness to the Holy Spirit” (“The Immaculate Conception,” Malou, Bishop of Brouges).

    Thus, according to the teaching of the representatives of Latin theology, the Virgin Mary in the work of Redemption is placed side by side with Christ Himself and is exalted to an equality with God. One cannot go farther than this. If all this has not been definitively formulated as a dogma of the Roman church as yet, still the Roman Pope Pius IX, having made the first step in this direction, has shown the direction for the further development of the generally recognized teaching of his church, and has indirectly confirmed the above-cited teaching about the Virgin Mary.

    Thus the Roman church, in its strivings to exalt the Most Holy Virgin, is going on the path of complete deification of Her.

    It is not a true statement, and it was never issued by the Catholic Church.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2015
  8. CanIHunt

    CanIHunt Newbie

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    Thank you but I am a bit confused. Is the excerpt you quoted from "Archbishop John Maximovitch: The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God"? With that excerpt using the original quote as a reference? What about the original quote? (the writing from The Immaculate Conception, by Malou, Bishop of Brouges). Does anyone know if the original quote I posted is real? Or who is the person that wrote it? Appreciate the help.
    Archbishop John Maximovitch: The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God
     
  9. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    It is possible the quote itself is original, but it may have been pulled out of context, as some folks like to do with scripture, while not citing the previous or following comment, nor the source. There are some bishops/clergy who have misquoted the true teachings of the RCC, and they are simply renegades. The alleged teaching regarding Mary in this reference is not what the RCC teaches, despite those efforts of others to falsify the truth of the RCC with innuendos selectively quoted out of context, as "proof" that the RCC is a false religion.. I suggest you read the Marian documents promulgated by the Vatican, and study your catechism, which usually refers to the source material of its teachings.

    You have previously submitted a thread with questions about Mary, which makes me wonder why you are so uninstructed with regard to Catholic doctrine, and why you go to websites that deliberately tear down our teachings, instilling doubt in the reader. ??? (These actions are usually troll material used to downplay our dogmas)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2015
  10. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    One last but important point. When an adversary quotes a bishop, pope or doctrine without giving the source or the surrounding context of his words, he is usually maliciously attacking our doctrine to trump up his own. You can tell by the article and the author's comments against the RCC that this is his agenda. Our Church does not speak in a vacuum through one isolated bishop, but through the unity of the hierarchy with its college of bishops, teaching with continuity over centuries of magisterial documents , the very same truth.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2015
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    It is absolutely not true that Mary is above Jesus or equal with God. I don't know if the quote is true or taken out of context.
     
  12. mark46

    mark46 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The pope could speak out and clearly state that Mary is NOT Co-Mediatrix. I can understand the confusion of our Orthodox brethren.
     
  13. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    The really big problem here is NOT the failing of the RCC, but of this Orthodox author, who is not able to provide anything else but isolated out-of-context quotes by so-called "Latin theologians" and a catechism which has never been authenticated, nor was in use by the Church. As if all of these baneful references and sorry attempts are somehow going to "prove" the RCC Church is heretical.

    Surely you recognize that a "Latin theologian" is NOT the Magisterium, and has no authority whatsoever to make such erroneous judgments or statements in the Church's name. As for the Church speaking out, She did, in Vatican II's Lumen Gentium #67, where she warned,


    But The Church exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

    And we read in Article #62....

    This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but "by her constant intercession" continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2015
  14. CanIHunt

    CanIHunt Newbie

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    Thanks for the help. I will stop reviewing this now. I sense I may have offended with the question. I just want to know the truth, and understand the truth. That is my only motive. I think I need to hear both sides of the story to get to that point.
     
  15. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

    This quote was not used in all the history concerning the Immaculate Conception. I have found in the past things distorted...it depends greatly on what site you found this on.
    Most likely twisted or created.
     
  16. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    Co-redemptrix = she helped bring Him into this world.
    So she helped. [Hence co means with]
    Its not a doctrine - or dogma. Its a pious description of her part.
     
  17. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    Co-mediatrix = she talks to Jesus when we ask her to.
    Co - with.
    Helper.
    Nothing more.
     
  18. AXO

    AXO Latin and Hispano-Mozarabic Rite, Roman Catholic

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    No, I can affirm that the quote is completely fabricated. I'm able to read that book and it appears nowhere.
     
  19. WarriorAngel

    WarriorAngel I close my eyes and see you smile Supporter

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    That happens a lot - which is what i figured in my last posts.
    Some sites - to look authentic and create doubt - change things or just completely fabricate them.
     
  20. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    Ya think? http://www.christianforums.com/thre...al-greek-new-testament.7880337/#post-67520770

    If you call yourself "Catholic" it is imperative that ALL dogmas must be believed. The "Ex Cathedra" proclamation of the Immaculate Conception leaves no wiggle room, if one wishes to remain a Catholic. That pertains as well to all other papal teachings regarding Mary. Faith accepts ALL teachings of the Magisterium, and does not pick and choose which ones are open to personal questioning or doubt.
     
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