Can someone explain this logic to me?

[Inviolable]

I'm sure...just as I wouldn't want to be hit on by a straight man. Myself and my gay friends would never hit on a straight person, there would be no point and it would be major awkward.


I think there are people out there that fear gays and lesbians will be more accepted if same sex marriage is legalized. Yeah...I don't think culture was the word you were looking for but I think I understand what you're saying.

How would their rights change?

I think many of us understand. But I think they are incredibly immature if they want to deny someone rights based on the idea that gay sex is "icky". But I understand what you mean when you say we have to understand why the other side thinks the way they do in order to successfully confront it.

I think the only way certain people will accept homosexuality, is when they realize that we are no different. Its true. When a person has a gay friend or relative, there is a human face on the matter.

Man...
Another "icky" word person.
And culture was the word I was looking for, are you saying there is no gay culture? I thought gays were adopting and raising children of their own. I also understood that gay communities were actively taking a role in the gay rights movement. I know theres an entire town in Mass, where people fear to go because of the way homosexuals treat them there. Rather nasty comments and so fourth.
I remember when I stopped there for directions a lesbian couple was calling me a breeder in a conversation they were having behind me.

That was funny.

 

[naotmaa]

Man...
Another "icky" word person.

For some people..thats exactly why they don't like it. I wasn't really talking about christians in that case, they have other reasons.

And culture was the word I was looking for, are you saying there is no gay culture?

Yeah there is, but it wouldn't be accepted by straight people because it wouldn't need to be.
The majority will always be straight, and gay culture really doesn't mean much to them, since it doesn't apply to them. BTW I define culture as a group of people that share, in this case, the same sexual orientation and thus similar beliefs, ideas, interests, etc.

I thought gays were adopting and raising children of their own. I also understood that gay communities were actively taking a role in the gay rights movement.

They are. And I suppose you're right that they are apart of our culture.But maybe we have different definitons of what culture means.

I know theres an entire town in Mass, where people fear to go because of the way homosexuals treat them there. Rather nasty comments and so fourth.

lol! That Provincetown! And thats completely untrue! Straight people go down their all the time. Its a resort town. I've been there every summer for many years and everyone is nice to everyone. Also there may be a lot of gay people there, but they are still not the majority that live there. The incident you are referring to I think was when a few drunk gay people called a few straight people "breeders" at a bar on July 4th last year. It was an isolated incident. Wow. Do people outside of MA really think that there are people afraid to go there? Crazyiness.

I remember when I stopped there for directions a lesbian couple was calling me a breeder in a conversation they were having behind me.

That was funny.

For real? I've never heard of anyone having any issues down there. wow. You just got really unlucky. heh.

 

[TheOutsider]

I've said it before in an earlier post.
Allowing homosexuals to get married will help cement the acceptability of homosexuality.

What's wrong with accepting homosexuals?

At present homosexuals aren't admitting that they understand heterosexuals find gay sex to be disturbing. Even if homosexuals know exactly why they're gay or lesbian people dont clearly understand that they know.

I think that homosexuals know that straight people aren't gay.

 

[Inviolable]

For some people..thats exactly why they don't like it. I wasn't really talking about christians in that case, they have other reasons.

Yeah there is, but it wouldn't be accepted by straight people because it wouldn't need to be.
The majority will always be straight, and gay culture really doesn't mean much to them, since it doesn't apply to them. BTW I define culture as a group of people that share, in this case, the same sexual orientation and thus similar beliefs, ideas, interests, etc.

They are. And I suppose you're right that they are apart of our culture.But maybe we have different definitons of what culture means.

lol! That Provincetown! And thats completely untrue! Straight people go down their all the time. Its a resort town. I've been there every summer for many years and everyone is nice to everyone. Also there may be a lot of gay people there, but they are still not the majority that live there. The incident you are referring to I think was when a few drunk gay people called a few straight people "breeders" at a bar on July 4th last year. It was an isolated incident. Wow. Do people outside of MA really think that there are people afraid to go there? Crazyiness.

For real? I've never heard of anyone having any issues down there. wow. You just got really unlucky. heh.

Well some people find it "icky" but I have been pointing out that it isnt simply "icky to a large amount of heteros. It's more then that.
And the word "icky" is getting in the way. Christians dont have to be the focus of that. Its far reaching the Christians in protest against gay marriage.


Wasn't Provincetown that I know of. Is Provencetown on the water? My sister lives in West Cummington Mass. In the hills. We were heading to a place just past Hatfield Mass to some kind of famous bread shop. Still inland.
I thought the pizza bread was cool.
Theres a town inbetween those two towns that we stopped at for directions. I guess my sister and brother in law were a little weary because the mayor was a lesbian and the town was predominately homosexual and known for its rude behavior. I cant remember the name, it was 4 years ago and a quick stop.

 

[naotmaa]

Well some people find it "icky" but I have been pointing out that it isnt simply "icky to a large amount of heteros. It's more then that.
And the word "icky" is getting in the way. Christians dont have to be the focus of that. Its far reaching the Christians in protest against gay marriage.

Mmm. Still.

Wasn't Provincetown that I know of. Is Provencetown on the water? My sister lives in West Cummington Mass. In the hills. We were heading to a place just past Hatfield Mass to some kind of famous bread shop. Still inland.

Yeah Ptown..is on the very tip of the Cape.
I thought the pizza bread was cool.

heres a town inbetween those two towns that we stopped at for directions. I guess my sister and brother in law were a little weary because the mayor was a lesbian and the town was predominately homosexual and known for its rude behavior. I cant remember the name, it was 4 years ago and a quick stop.

You must be talking about Northampton. Really pretty town. It has a lot of lesbians. I have never heard of any issues there. Wow. My friend goes to school there so I should ask her.

 

[Inviolable]

Mmm. Still.


Yeah Ptown..is on the very tip of the Cape.
I thought the pizza bread was cool.

You must be talking about Northampton. Really pretty town. It has a lot of lesbians. I have never heard of any issues there. Wow. My friend goes to school there so I should ask her.

Hey, I think that is it. There was a school there. Those pedestrian walkways across the street really messed me up. Not use to people just crossing the street like that.

 

[MrPirate]

Nope, but I dont see what that has to do with anything.

Reference your post #58
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=39065930&postcount=58

you just answered your own question.

 

[IzzyPop]

It's about a mind set. How people think. Quite a few hetero people
just dont want to be hit on by gay people. I'm not syaing that it will or wont happen. The issue isnt what we think in a debate forum and if the few of us here believe homosexuals will or wont make a pass at every person they see.

the issue is in peoples fear of what will happen once the gay and lesbian culture is widely accepted and making marriage legal will only cement the thinking that gay culture will be widely accepted.

People simply want to be assured that when that happens their rights will be protected as well.
Because sex is such a big deal its the heart of the issue. Understanding how people see gay sex and their response to it can make all the difference.

I've said it before in an earlier post.
Allowing homosexuals to get married will help cement the acceptability of homosexuality. At present homosexuals aren't admitting that they understand heterosexuals find gay sex to be disturbing. Even if homosexuals know exactly why they're gay or lesbian people dont clearly understand that they know.

You really dont understand do you? I'm sorry but I cant do this with you any more.
You either really cant understand or you wish to remain ignorant.
Either way this conversation isnt doing you any good and you are plainly not understanding what I am actually trying to do.

Well some people find it "icky" but I have been pointing out that it isnt simply "icky to a large amount of heteros. It's more then that.
And the word "icky" is getting in the way. Christians dont have to be the focus of that. Its far reaching the Christians in protest against gay marriage.


Wasn't Provincetown that I know of. Is Provencetown on the water? My sister lives in West Cummington Mass. In the hills. We were heading to a place just past Hatfield Mass to some kind of famous bread shop. Still inland.
I thought the pizza bread was cool.
Theres a town inbetween those two towns that we stopped at for directions. I guess my sister and brother in law were a little weary because the mayor was a lesbian and the town was predominately homosexual and known for its rude behavior. I cant remember the name, it was 4 years ago and a quick stop.

I have quoted all of these because there seems to be a common thread. It seems that you are saying that the reason it is okay to discriminate against homosexuals has to do with the large numbers of people that find gay sex to be disturbing. A few questions.

1. Does this mean that I can discriminate against against people that enjoy water sports? I personally find that to be repulsive.

2. How does that explain discrimination against lesbians? I have found tons of people that have no issues with lesbian sex. In fact, it seems to be desirable. Check the local adult video store. A good chunk of their shelves are devoted towards girl/girl.

3. How is being hit on by someone of the same sex any different than being hit on by someone of the opposite sex that you have no desire for? Should we discriminate against the ugly people since they might hit on someone and make that person uncomfortable?

4. What is so frightening about 'the gay culture' that makes it so bad to be accepted? Do you not see the parallels between this and 'black culture' or 'Buddhist culture' or any 'insert -your-minority-group culture'?

 

[MrPirate]

In your eyes.

If the Christian right presented false witness about Jews and worked for legalized discrimination against Jews as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

If the Christian right presented false witness about blacks and worked for legalized discrimination against blacks as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

If the Christian right presented false witness about Muslims and worked for legalized discrimination against Muslims as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

If the Christian right presented false witness about the handicapped and worked for legalized discrimination against handicapped as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

If the Christian right presented false witness about Hispanics and worked for legalized discrimination against Hispanics as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

Bigotry doesn’t magically become something else just because it is being practiced by the religious right

What? You mean all those babies that have been born since the beginning of time isnt evidence enough?
Maybe you mean besides the fact that there would be no human race with out the ability to reproduce?
Could you be wondering what sperm is for?
How about where a fetus comes from? That isnt puzzling you is it?

If you cannot provide evidence to back up your claims then just say so.

Look I'm not racist and I dont "hate" homosexuals.
I'm pointing out what people dont agree with when it comes to homosexuality.

I never said you were a racist or made any comment about your feelings about homosexuals.

The fact remains you are justifying your own personal prejudice against one minority by using the term “icky” and using the logical fallacy that since you can show other people have this same prejudice (because they think a minority is ‘icky) then it is acceptable for you to do the same. the question posed remains. Is it morally acceptable for someone else to justify racism by using the exact same arguments you use to justify your own personal prejudices. your offence seems to indicate that it is not morally acceptable for a racist to use your arguments. The question becomes why is it wrong for someone to use this line of reasoning to justify prejudice against a minority but not wrong to use this line of reasoning to justify prejudice against a different minority?

If you cant accept it, then that makes you just as ignorant as anyone else may be when it comes to bigotry and just as close minded.

Name calling is not a response to the points I have made

I'd have to say, everyone who finds it disturbing doesn't have to be a bigot. Some hetero pro gay people have admitted to thinking it's disturbing as well. It's sex that is out of the norm nothing wrong with admitting that.

You didn’t answer the question: Does the fact that “every single hetero person I have talked to and yes I have said that several times” make bigotry morally acceptable

As for the point you are trying to make here….interracial coupling is out of the “norm” does that make discrimination against such couples morally acceptable?

Its stupidity that gets in the way. Like someone saying, if the shoe fits. Why not just figure out why Christians do what they do and see if you can fix it.

“Fixing” that comes in the form of confronting hatred when it appeares

Because it's universal, its every hetero, not just Christians. So you might want to think about finding out why people think the way they do so you can work on easing their mind. So you can be closer to having rights.
Thats what.

the hate and prejudice you are trying to justify is not universal…no matter how much you might wish it to be.

Probably because people were unable to see the issue from both sides, so it took that long for understanding to sink in..

You blamed homophobia and the legalization of discrimination on the gays and lesbians themselves claiming they have scarred law makers.
The question remains does this reasoning stand up for other minorities?

I like how you keep bringing up the black thing, it's funny. Doesn't help your issue so its funny.

Discrimination and bigotry are never funny no matter who they are directed against.

Some what and through the example you have set here it's been made a little clearer has to why that is.

 

[Inviolable]

I have quoted all of these because there seems to be a common thread. It seems that you are saying that the reason it is okay to discriminate against homosexuals has to do with the large numbers of people that find gay sex to be disturbing. A few questions.

No, thats not what I am saying, but your narrow vision is helping to make my point very clear. Thank you.

I am saying that is exactly why people do discriminate against them.
It also happens to be true. If the gay community simply said they were aware of this, people wouldnt have a reason to discriminate against them any longer.

Sadly people like yourself let it get in the way.

 

[Inviolable]

[/font]
If the Christian right presented false witness about Jews and worked for legalized discrimination against Jews as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

If the Christian right presented false witness about blacks and worked for legalized discrimination against blacks as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

If the Christian right presented false witness about Muslims and worked for legalized discrimination against Muslims as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

If the Christian right presented false witness about the handicapped and worked for legalized discrimination against handicapped as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

If the Christian right presented false witness about Hispanics and worked for legalized discrimination against Hispanics as they are for homosexuals it would be called hate.

Bigotry doesn’t magically become something else just because it is being practiced by the religious right
[/size]



If you cannot provide evidence to back up your claims then just say so.

Babies dont make for physical evidence?
That has to be the most one sided form of an argument I have ever seen and I'm a Christian.
The fact that you point out every single thing you think Christians are responsible for and the fact that you're trying to deny that sex is to reproduce, leads me to believe anything I say will not be accepted by you.
I could say the grass is green. And some how I get the feeling you would argue the gay community wants it to be blue, so its more blue then green.
Then I'd have to bring up proof and then you'd say something to the proof that just seemed silly. Suddenly we're arguing grass when all I wanted to do was make everyone happy with grass.


Grass is green! There I said it! Now what!!!

 

[TheOutsider]

No, thats not what I am saying, but your narrow vision is helping to make my point very clear. Thank you.

I am saying that is exactly why people do discriminate against them.
It also happens to be true. If the gay community simply said they were aware of this, people wouldnt have a reason to discriminate against them any longer.

I somehow doubt that. People would find a different reason to discriminate against them.

 

[naotmaa]

No, thats not what I am saying, but your narrow vision is helping to make my point very clear. Thank you.

I am saying that is exactly why people do discriminate against them.
It also happens to be true. If the gay community simply said they were aware of this, people wouldnt have a reason to discriminate against them any longer.

Sadly people like yourself let it get in the way.

If only it were that easy. People will still not like gay sex whether we say we are aware of this or not. I can't really follow your reasoning.

Two questions:
How would the gay community say that we are aware that people don't like gay sex? Take an ad out of the paper?
It seems self evident that we are aware of this...many people like to make their opinion on the matter very clear.

And

Why would they have no reason to discriminate after we admit to this? (Although I'm still a little confused on what we are admitting to)

 

[fanatiquefou]

Yes, it is disturbing and not just icky. I feel I have to clarify because someone will step in an effort to tone down the word disturbing by replacing it with the word icky. When in fact disturbing is what it is to every single hetero person I have talked to and yes I have said that several times.

Then you obviously haven't talked to me, my friends, and many other heterosexuals I know, because none of us are disturbed by gay sex. I'm straight, and I personally can't imagine being with someone of the same sex, but I'm not grossed out by it, and I don't find gays and lesbians in the least bit disturbing.

 

[MrPirate]

No, thats not what I am saying, but your narrow vision is helping to make my point very clear. Thank you.

I am saying that is exactly why people do discriminate against them.
It also happens to be true. If the gay community simply said they were aware of this, people wouldnt have a reason to discriminate against them any longer.

Sadly people like yourself let it get in the way.

So Izzyop is correct this is in fact what you are saying.

 

[MrPirate]

Babies dont make for physical evidence?
That has to be the most one sided form of an argument I have ever seen and I'm a Christian.
The fact that you point out every single thing you think Christians are responsible for and the fact that you're trying to deny that sex is to reproduce, leads me to believe anything I say will not be accepted by you.
I could say the grass is green. And some how I get the feeling you would argue the gay community wants it to be blue, so its more blue then green.
Then I'd have to bring up proof and then you'd say something to the proof that just seemed silly. Suddenly we're arguing grass when all I wanted to do was make everyone happy with grass.


Grass is green! There I said it! Now what!!!

Its painfully obvious you didn’t even bother to read what was posted

 

[IzzyPop]

No, thats not what I am saying, but your narrow vision is helping to make my point very clear. Thank you.

I am saying that is exactly why people do discriminate against them.
It also happens to be true. If the gay community simply said they were aware of this, people wouldnt have a reason to discriminate against them any longer.

Sadly people like yourself let it get in the way.

I understand that you are not saying it is okay to discriminate, but these are justifications that others use. The questions I asked still apply. I think that you are mistaken as to the why of discrimination. It has more to do with our society's views on gender roles than the sex issue. That is why male/male sex is not acceptable while female/female is. That is where your concern over being hit on by a gay man comes from. That is why you do not see the same widespread condemnation against furries or other fetishists. And that is why some people have a hard time seeing the comparison to the racial equality issues. Once you realize that a gay man is not less of a man, the rest is all down hill.

 

[DrFate]

Statement: Many gay people live promiscuous lives.
Conclusion: Therefore, we cannot allow gay people to participate in a declaration of commitment to one another.

you are missing some intermediate premises and supports for the conclusion. You have not presented a logical problem.

 

[Inviolable]

So Izzyop is correct this is in fact what you are saying.

No Izzy is in fact incorrect, he said I was saying something that made discrimination ok. When in fact I was pointing out what would stop it. Grass is green!

 

[djbcrawford]

Statement: Many gay people live promiscuous lives.
Conclusion: Therefore, we cannot allow gay people to participate in a declaration of commitment to one another.

How can you still be talking about this obviously illogical statement 10 pages on. Oh hold on - by people like me posting a reply..DOH!