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Can someone be saved and deny Jesus being God

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Ultimate, Jun 24, 2002.

  1. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    souljah,
    you say "How would the people that lived before Jesus be saved then?" I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not...but no one lived before Jesus...

    ATAT,
    Jesus said I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH, and THE LIFE.......NO ONE comes to the Father but through me...perty bold for a just a human prophet...
    Also the beginning of John clearly shows the diety of Jesus Christ...

    but since you enjoy picking and choosing I doubt you agree....
     
  2. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
    +1
    Muslim
    Single
    US-Republican
    So why is the bad rating?????

    I'm exactly like u all in here, I'd kill myself for Jesus and if i live long enough to witness the glory of his second coming and how the Anti-Christ is going to melt down like salt in water when he see's Christ as stated by Muhammad peace be on them both but does it really make any sense to say that God is a man or has a son made of human flesh? The answer is no. And no dogma can convince you or myself that this is true. The ultimate truth is Universal. It applies to everyone at any point in time. Remember there is no compulsion in religion as the Quran states, "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error; whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things". Quran 2-256 Consider Islam with an open heart and an open mind. If you consider Islam to be true than accept and practice it, if not at least respect it.

    The only way that you can justify rejecting Islam is to say that it is a false religion. Know one thing: if Islam is a false religion, then so is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Joseph, John, Mary, and yes, Jesus. Why? Simple: they all taught the same concepts, namely the Oneness of God, and they all worshipped God alone without making any association between Him and others. They knew that their Creator stood high above all of His creations. That concept alone is the first step to correct guidance. There is God alone, the Creator, then there are creations, which no matter how numerous or powerful they may seem to us, have no power at all, because all power is with God.
     
  3. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    And, just WHICH of us do you believe are willing to kill ourselves for Jesus? The God WE serve does not demand suicide. If we face persecution, we are unafraid to die. But JESUS did not preach a gospel of death.

    The thief comes to steal and kill and destroy; I came that you may have life, and have it in abundance.Jn10:10

    But Mohammed was not a prophet. One attribute of a prophet is that he is 100% accurate. And why will Jesus' return be special for you? Jesus' return will herald the beginning of His REIGN-ON-EARTH.
    What WE say is irrelevant. In a legal sense, the Bible is an accurate record of Jesus' own words.

    God did not have a Son. God did not give birth to a Human.

    God BECAME Human. Jesus with no beginning, Jesus "God-man", Jesus Immanuel "God-with-us".

    By denying His own words, you call Jesus, a LIAR.

    Tell me again, which belief system preaches life, and which belief system preaches death?

    002-091: "And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with
    you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

    004.089: "They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

    004.091You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.


    And it denies the Crucifixion, 004-157: "And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus) son of Marium (Mary), the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. "

    "And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain, and your faith also is in vain". 1Cor15:14

    I do not believe the Kuran ("Qu'ran") endorses living in peace and love. An Islam state is a
    totalitarian rulership. I think we should be aware of this in our dealings with terrorist governments...
     
  4. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
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    Muslim
    Single
    US-Republican
    Ben : First of all, from where did you get this 2.91 ???? 2.91 is this When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us:" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say: "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?"

    and secondly , why don't u read what's before and after that

    4.88. Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.

    4.89. They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

    4.90. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

    4.91. Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.

    4.92. Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath all knowledge and all wisdom.

    4.93. If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

    4.94. O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation: "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with Allah are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves before, till Allah conferred on you His favours: Therefore carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware of all that ye do.

    and for last.. don't be afraid, Jews and Chistians are not the Hypocrites in here they are the ones which calif Omar said to them (if u woship Muhammad then he is dead, But if u worship god then he is alive and never dies) then they went to to worship the tree which Muhammad used to sit below it's shades.

    P.S.: From where did u get these verses ,,, CNN ??
     
  5. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    Hi-

    Of course, Jesus is eternal...but I was refering to those that didn't know about Him...like those living before 1 A.D.
     
  6. SimpleChristian

    SimpleChristian Member

    194
    +0
    zico...I believe you are mistaken about some of the concepts of judaism and especially Christianity.

    First the falseness of Islam has absolutely no bearing on the truthfulness of Christianity. Yes, Islam does mention Christ as a prophet, but that is it. Jesus was much more and is more then that. Jesus is God (refer to John 1:1-30). Mohammad was a guy, a man...that's it (and, if history is any record he was not that nice of a guy or a good role model).

    Also, how can you say that Islam is 'tolerant' when the Quaran calls for any follower of Islam to KILL a person who leaves the faith? That just does not sound very tolerant to me.
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +58
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "The only way that you can justify rejecting Islam is to say that it is a false religion. Know one thing: if Islam is a false religion, then so is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Joseph, John, Mary, and yes, Jesus. "

    Noo....at NO time does Christ say it is okay to kill people. Islam does :) The God of those people you mentioned in this quote is God, not Allah. They are very different.
     
  8. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
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    Muslim
    Single
    US-Republican
    Happy Birthday SimpleChristian (I also did congratulate u on the other thread) :)

    Let me please tell u why Muhammad is only a man.

    This is from the book ( What did Jesus really say? ). This is the link to the book, Please try to read it if u have time <http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/contents.html>


    6.7: Moses foretells of Muhammad's coming

    I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

    Deuteronomy 18:18


    There are many verses in the Old Testament that predict the coming of Jesus (pbuh). This one, however, is not one of them. This can be clearly seen from the following four points:


    a) Like unto moses

    Muslims believe in all of the previous prophets. They make no distinction between them, nor do they place one above the others in piety. However, they are all human, and as humans they differ from one another in their characteristics. Let us compare these characteristics:

    1) Both Christians and Muslims agree that both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) had fathers and mothers. They both also believe that Jesus (pbuh) had only a mother and no father. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    2) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) married and begat children. Jesus (pbuh) never married nor had any offspring. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    3) Moses (pbuh) was accepted by the Jews and to this day, as a nation, they accept him as their prophet. Muhammad (pbuh) was accepted by his people, and as a nation, over one billion Muslims around the world accept him as the prophet of Allah. Jesus (pbuh), however, was rejected by his people (the Jews) as stated in the Christian's own Bible: "He (Jesus) came unto his own, but his own received him not" (John 1:11) Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    4) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) were kings on Earth in the sense that they had the ultimate power of government, the power to inflict capital punishment. When the Jews brought before Moses (pbuh) the Israelite who had been caught collecting firewood on the Sabbath, Moses had him stoned to death (Numbers 15:36). Muhammad (pbuh) had similar authority. When a woman came before him confessing (with no witnesses) to having committed adultery, he gave her a chance to consider the severity of her claim and the punishment she would receive. When she insisted, he ordered her stoned to death and ordered his companions to respect her for her sincere repentance. Jesus (pbuh), however, explicitly refuted the claim that he had a kingdom on earth. When he was dragged before the Roman Governor Pontious Pilate with a charge of sedition he said: (John 18:36) "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Jesus (pbuh) would not resort to lying to save his skin. Thus, he had no earthly kingdom. Further, in John 8:1-7 we read the story of the woman who was taken in adultery by the Jews and brought before Jesus (pbuh). They were hoping to trap him by either having him contradict the laws of Moses (pbuh) by not stoning her, or by placing him in a bad position with the Roman empire by taking the law into his own hands and ordering her stoned. Jesus cleverly extracted himself from this predicament by commanding them: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." So the woman was set free. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    5) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) came with a new and comprehensive set of laws for their people. The law brought by prophet Moses was named the Judaic Law, and the law brought by prophet Muhammad was named the Shari'ah. Jesus (pbuh) however, as witnessed by Matthew, claimed to have not introduced any new laws, but to have come to renew the law of Moses (pbuh) and to have neither added nor subtracted from it. In Matthew 5:17-18 we read: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    6) Moses lead his people in a secret mass exodus from their hometown to Median in an attempt to flee the persecution of their enemies. Muhammad (pbut) too emigrated with his followers from their home town to Madinah in secret in order to flee the torture of their enemies. Jesus, however, never led his followers in a any sort of mass exodus from their hometowns . Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    7) Moses was victorious over his enemies both morally as well as physically. Pharaoh was defeated by Moses and all of his army were drowned in the sea. Muhammad (pbuh) too met his enemies in battle and defeated them all. This too was a moral as well as a physical victory. Jesus (pbuh) on the other hand is claimed in the Bible to have been crucified by his enemies. Thus, his victory was only a moral one. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    8) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh), is claimed by the Christians to have died violently on the cross. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    9) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbut) lie buried in the ground. Jesus (pbuh), however, is claimed by the Christians to abide in heaven. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    10) Most Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) is God. No Christian or Muslim, however, claims that Moses or Muhammad (pbut) was God. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    11) Both Moses and Muhammad (pbuh) began their prophetic missions at the age of forty. The Bible tells us that Jesus (pbuh) began at thirty. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    12) Christians claim that Jesus (pbuh) was resurrected after his death. Neither Muslims nor Christians claim that Moses or Muhammad was resurrected. Therefore, Muhammad is like Moses, but Jesus is unlike Moses.

    There are many additional points that could be mentioned but we will suffice with these for now.


    b) Cannot be a Jew

    Well, is Muhammad (pbuh) the only prophet who is "Like unto Moses"? For example, what about Jesus (pbuh)? Well, we should then notice that Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew,


    "Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou (Jesus), being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria?"

    John 4:9

    and the Bible specifically denies that this awaited prophet will be a Jew. We are told that in Deuteronomy:


    "And there arose NOT a prophet since in Israel LIKE unto Moses."

    Deuteronomy 34:10


    This awaited prophet, however, must be "LIKE unto thee (Moses)." So he will come from OUTSIDE of Israel.


    c) Is from the BRETHREN of the Jews

    If this prophet can not be a Jew, then what is left? In this verse, God speaks to Moses (pbuh) about the Jews as a racial entity. The awaited prophet is claimed to not be "from the Jews" or "from among themselves" but rather "from among their (the Jew's) brethren." Who are the brethren of the Jewish nation? The Jews are the sons Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham. Isaac's older brother was Ishmael, the father of the Arabs. Thus, the brethren of the Jewish nation is the nation of the Arabs. This statement is further reinforced by the following definition of "Brethren" in the Hebrew Dictionary of the Bible:


    "personification of a group of tribes who were regarded as near kinsmen of the Israelites."

    Muhammad in the Bible, Jamal Badawi, p. 16


    Please compare this expression with that of the Qur'an:


    "Indeed Allah has conferred a great favor upon the believers (Muslims) when He sent among them a messenger from among themselves, reciting unto them His verses, purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom; although before that they were in manifest error."

    The noble Qur'an, Aal-Umran(3):164


    There has come unto you (O Muslims) a messenger from among yourselves (Muhammad, pbuh). It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty, full of concern for you, for the believers [he is] full of pity, kind and merciful.

    The noble Qur'an, Al-Tawba(9):128



    d) Put my words in his mouth

    If we were to read the Qur'an we would find that it contains many verses stating "I am your Lord, so worship Me" (Al-Anbia: 92, Al-Muminoon: 52), "Verily, I am Allah" (Taha: 14, Al-Namil: 9, Al-Qasas: 30), "I am thy Lord" (Taha: 19). These verses are not preceded by "I heard God say.....," or "And God said....," or similar statements which would be the words of a man transmitting the words of God, rather, their form is that of the first person who speaks of himself. Neither Muhammad (pbuh) nor any Muslim ever claimed that Muhammad (pbuh) was God, therefore, Muhammad (pbuh) was speaking with his mouth the words of God. Similarly, we can find in the Qur'an more than four hundred verses of the form "Say (O Muhammad) : ........" In other words God Almighty is putting His words into Muhammad's (pbuh) mouth and commanding him to speak them.


    We also find in the Qur'an verses which command Muhammad (pbuh) to perform a certain action, such as the opening verses of Al-Muzzamil(73), or which even go so far as to reproach Muhammad (pbuh), such as the chapter of Al-Tahreem(66) or the chapter of Abasa(80).


    Christians claim that the Bible has many "authors," and that while the "inspiration" is from God, still, the words are those of mortal men.


    Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible institute, Chicago, says on page 17 of his book "It is human, yet divine":


    "...Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."


    Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says on page 277 of his book, "The call of the minaret":


    ".....Not so the New testament....... There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history....."


    (Both quotes have been obtained from the books of Ahmed Deedat)


    The Qur'an, however, is the book of God in both word and meaning. An example of this is a teacher who sends two students to teach what they have learned from him. The first is told to "teach them what I taught you." While the second is given a textbook written by this teacher and told to read verbatim from this book and say nothing of his own accord. The first will convey the thoughts of the teacher. The second will convey both his thoughts and his words.


    Sir William Muir says:

    "There is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries (at the time of this quote) with so pure a text"

    Life of Muhammad from original sources, Sir William Muir, Edinburough, J. Grant, p. xxii-xxiii


    This matter becomes clearer when studying for example the personal greetings and salutations of Paul and his friends at the ends of Titus (3:15), 2 Timothy (4:19), 1 Thessalonians (5:26) ..... etc. These words are not the word of God but the personal greetings of Paul and his friends. There are many such examples to be found in the Bible. The Qur'an contains no such verses from Muhammad (pbuh). The words of Muhammad (pbuh) are collected in a completely separate reference from the Qur'an called "The Sunnah" (or the "Hadeeth"). We notice from all this that even the Church itself does not claim that the Bible is the actual word of God, but His "inspiration" (his teachings) through the words of men. The Qur'an, however, is the actual word of God.


    "And (remember) when Abraham and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House (the Ka'aba in Makkah), [praying]: Our Lord! Accept from us [this service]. Verily! You, [only You,] are the Hearer, the Knower. Our Lord! And make us submissive unto You and of our offspring a nation submissive unto You, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Verily! You, [only You,] are the Relenting, the Merciful. Our Lord! And send among them a messenger from among them who shall recite unto them Your verses, and shall instruct them in the Book and in wisdom and shall purify them. Verily! You, [only You,] are the Mighty, the Wise. And who desires other than the path of Abraham except he who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world, and Verily! In the Hereafter he shall be among the righteous. When his Lord said unto him: Surrender! (literally: 'Be a Muslim!') he said: I have surrendered (Literally: 'I have become a Muslim') to the Lord of creation."

    The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqarah(2):127-131



    e) Grave Warnings for all who do not follow him:

    So what shall we say to those who say: "Jesus has redeemed us. We have no need to follow any future prophets."? After the above verse of Deuteronomy, God himself threatens severe retribution against all those who do not follow this awaited prophet. In Deuteronomy we read:


    "And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him." (in some translations: "I will be the Revenger")

    Deuteronomy 18:19



    Well, do Muslims read the word of God (The Qur'an) in His name? The answer is: Yes. Muhammad (pbuh) never in his lifetime claimed that the Qur'an was his words, but the words of God it is only the West which claims that it is his words. Further, when a Muslim reads a verse or chapter of the Qur'an, you will find that they have been taught to always start their recitation with the words: "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful." The Qur'an contains 114 Chapters. If we were to follow them on down we would find that the first chapter, second chapter, third chapter, and so on all begin with the words "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful." (there is one exception). So not only Muhammad (pbuh), but all Muslims in general recite the words of God in His name. Indeed, the Qur'an does even confirm this same warning of Deuteronomy:


    "And whosoever seeks other than Islam as their religion it will not be accepted from him, and he shall be in the hereafter among those who have lost"

    The noble Qur'an, A'al Umran(3):85
     
  9. berean_315

    berean_315 New Member

    35
    +0
    SimpleChristian wrote:

    Also, how can you say that Islam is 'tolerant' when the Quaran calls for any follower of Islam to KILL a person who leaves the faith? That just does not sound very tolerant to me.

    Islam is an exclusive religion just as Christianity. According to Muslims, Christians follow a corrupted Bible and thus do not have the latest truth as revelaed to Mohammad (who Christians do not believe is a prophet and thus reject the "shahada"). Zico mentioned the book "What Did Jesus Really Say?", and as you can guess from the title its purpose is to try to point out the many false beliefs that Christians have, and in the book there is a table outling the many differences between what Christians and Muslims believe. Thus to Muslims Christians do not have the truth, Islam has the truth. Since Truth by its definition is exclusive; exclusive of error according to Muslims Christians do not have the truth.

    For Christians who believe in the Triune nature of God and do not repent of this egregious sin of "shirk", according to the Qur'an we're destined for everlasting punishment in the Hellfire.

    The Book "What DId Jesus Says" states the following as its goal:

    The goal of this book is simple: To exhibit considerable tangible evidence that the Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) underwent a series of major revisions and alterations after his departure to the point that his original message to mankind was all but totally lost.&nbsp; Six hundred years later (Fourteen hundred years ago), the holy book of the Muslims, the Qur'an, was sent down upon the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by God informing him of this fact.&nbsp; It has taken close to two thousand years for Christianity to recognize this as a known fact.&nbsp; Today, you would be hard pressed to find a single reputable scholar of Christianity who, to one degree or another, does not readily acknowledge this as a true accepted fact (A minority of the most adamant conservatives will always be the exception).&nbsp; The evidence is simply too overwhelming to ignore.

    In this book it will be demonstrated (by God's will), through the words of the Bible and some of history's most eminent conservative Biblical scholars and references only, how most of the founding beliefs of Christianity today were indeed inserted by mankind into the message of Jesus long after his departure. Jesus (pbuh) himself never had anything whatsoever to do with them.


    The following statements are made in the book:

    1) "Muslims are told that the previous scriptures were tampered with by mankind and the Bible should only be accepted in as far as it is confirmed by the Qur'an. It is to be treated with respect, however any statements which clearly oppose those of the Qur'an are to be rejected as the work of mankind".

    2) "Jesus was sent specifically to the Jews, and only to the Jews.&nbsp; It shall be demonstrated how one of the most fundamental reasons which led up to the loss of his message was that those who came after him attempted to preach it to those for whom it was never intended, namely, the Gentiles.&nbsp; The Gentiles eventually managed to introduce into the message of Jesus many aspects of their own beliefs which ultimately led up to the loss of the message of Jesus."

    3) "Jesus was not forsaken to the Jews to be abused and killed, however, it was "made to appear so to them." God saved Jesus by raising him up unto Himself." [i.e. Jesus was not crucified on the cross]

    4) "There is no such thing" [as original sin].

    5) "Adam "atoned" for his sin by saying "My Lord I have sinned and if you do not forgive me and have mercy upon me then I shall indeed have lost." So God forgave him..."

    The "Answering Islam" website at http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Al-Kadhi/index.html&nbsp;provides Christian&nbsp;rebuttals to what Misha'al Ibn Abdullah Al-Kadhi writes in his book "What Did Jesus Really Say"

    berean_315
     
  10. The Simpleton

    The Simpleton New Member

    65
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    Wow!&nbsp;:eek: I started going through this thread but I finally had to give up when you started debating the merits of Islam. Zico, do you really think anyone is going to read all your religious fanatical, longwinded gibberish?&nbsp; :sleep:

    I for one have much better things to do.

    Fellow Christian brothers and sisters, pick your battles better. This isn't one that's worth fighting. You have a much better chance of convincing Donald Trump that he should give all his possessions to charity and follow Christ than you do of converting Zico. After Ben’s first response, Zico should have been ignored. He's not worth the time. Zico completely derailed a thread that had nothing to do with Christianity vs. Islam. :mad:

    As for me, I was quite interested in the original topic, which by the way WAS NOT whether Jesus Christ was God. There are many other threads to debate that. But why is it that no one want's to talk about the original topic??? I think it was a worthy subject to tackle.
     
  11. berean_315

    berean_315 New Member

    35
    +0
    Hello Simpleton,

    I guess we did get somewhat sidetracked, and agree that we probably don't have much chance in changing Zico's mind, but I there is some relevance to the original subject.

    Can someone be saved and deny Jesus Being God? No.

    Since Muslims deny that Jesus is God, and believe that equating Jesus with God is a sin that Allah will never forgive, then I would have to say that Muslims cannot be saved if they believe this.

    berean_315
     
  12. The Simpleton

    The Simpleton New Member

    65
    +0
    First off let me say that I do know that Jesus Christ is God. The Holy Spirit led me to this conclusion during my personal Bible studies independently of any human guidence. Just one lonely soul seeking truth, my bible and the Holy Spirit. I stake my life on the Deity of Jesus Christ. Let there be no mistake where I stand on this issue.

    Now for the million dollar question: Can someone be saved and deny Jesus being God.

    First off, let me state that I don’t know the answer for sure but here is my opinion.

    I believe that if a person 1) Believes that Jesus is the true son of God 2) Believes that he was born from an immaculet conception 3) Believes that we are only washed clean of our sins through the Blood of Christ, …. and for good messure I’ll throw in 4) This person has forgiven those who have sinned against them AND asked God for forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ, then I have to think that this person can have salvation IN SPITE OF THE FACT that this person may never quite grasp the concept of Jesus Christ as being God. Yes, Christ’s Deity may be as clear to you as it is to me but it is not clear to everyone. Just ask Ed. I don’t believe that God is going to cast into hell so many otherwise faithful souls who are honering God the best way that they know how. My common sense tells me this. God is after all loving and merciful. If I were God, I wouldn’t lock souls out of Heaven just because they couldn’t wrap their minds around this one concept yet in all other ways were loving and honoring me. How much more merciful and loving is God than I. SoulJah made a great point that was quickly cast aside. How were those who died before Christ was nailed to a Cross saved. They didn’t know that Christ was God.

    OK, so I’ve made my case. One thing and one thing only will convince me that I am wrong. Show me where in the scriptures it says that if a Christian faithfully believes that Jesus is the sinless Lamb of God, born from an Immaculate Conception, and faithfully believing that only by the blood of Christ can they have salvation, where does it say in the scriptures that that's not enough, the Christian must also fully comprehend the Deity of Christ or they are bound for Hell. This simpleton need’s to know where in the scriptures you are drawing this from. My mind is open and I'm willing to embrace your rather unmerciful point of view but until I see the scripture to back it up, I will continue to believe that these less enlightened folks&nbsp;can receive salvation.

    I&nbsp;am sure&nbsp;glad that it is Christ who is going to&nbsp;be the judge and not some of you here. I&nbsp;am sure that he will be more merciful than some of you seem to be.&nbsp;:p
     
  13. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +58
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "The Qur'an, however, is the book of God in both word and meaning."

    No, its not. It is not of God at all.
     
  14. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    John 8 & John 10 are cases of Jesus trying to make it clear he was not actually God, but Jesus is claiming to have been 'sent' by God and he is acting as a person through whom God spoke.
     
  15. heydeerman

    heydeerman "Bow Huntin' Fool"

    143
    +0
    Jenlu,

    Jesus is not the Holy Spirit or the Father. You must be a oneness Pentecostal or a Modalist of some kind. You are wrong.

    If jesus is not God then the Bible is wrong on all accounts and salvation is not valid. Jesus said the Father desires worshippers who worship Him in spirit and TRUTH. The truth about the diety if Christ is a necessity. We cannot be wrong on this one. Unfortunately the Church is lacking in quality teaching on this subject and overflowing in "love" and acceptance for those of differing views. If we are to accept those who hold to the view that Christ is not God then we might as well accept the Watchtower and Modalists into the Church. there is too much junk taught out there and its time the Church learns what has been taught down the centuries and holds to TRUTH. Too much tolerence has got the Church in a weakened state.
     
  16. The Simpleton

    The Simpleton New Member

    65
    +0
    All right, I give up on the first question, let’s go on to the second question, is Christ God? There are so many scriptures to quote to make the case that Jesus spirit was indeed part of Gods spirit. It amazes me that it is not clear to all but none the less that is the case. Here are a few that maybe are not quoted so much.

    Question, What is the source of Jesus Christ’s Spirit?

    Answer, John 1:18 Jesus was taken from the bosom of God. Jesus is Gods heart.

    I've also heard some quote this next verse as proof that Christ isn't God...

    Luke 18

    18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

    19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

    But Christ didn't say here that he was not God. He is really pointing out the irony of what this man was saying. In light of what Christ said here about God alone being good, how do you explain these verses...

    John 10:

    11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

    14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    For once friend, get out of the debate mode and open up your mind and heart to the true nature of God. Allow yourself to know the Good Shepherd who laid down his life for you. Don't believe because I say it or anyone else. Pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you. It will not lie. It is incapable of it.

    John 4:24; God is spirit. Christ said so. He is not a muscular senior in the sky pointing across the clouds at something for the Angels to look at. He is spirit and he is vast and powerful. Don't put your human limitations on him. He was in Christ and Christ was in him (John 10;30) He was in Heaven looking down while Christ was down here in the flesh. His Spirit is that big and awesome!

    The words Christ spoke were not his own but Father God speaking through him (John 14:10).

    Now think about this for a second. Your hand is part of your body. It is part of you. You are in your hand and your hand is in you. Your hand is only doing the things your brain asks it to but your hand is none the less part of your body and as such is you. GET IT???? I could go on for pages like this but I have a breakfast to go and eat.

    I will pray that God reveals his true nature to you.
    :pray:

    &nbsp;:wave:
     
  17. mambutuu

    mambutuu Member

    100
    +0
    Yo man, that ain't cool. Be cool to Zico. That isn't very nice to call what he wrote fanatical gibberish. Don't flame.
     
  18. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
    +1
    Muslim
    Single
    US-Republican
    Thanks mambutuu.


    In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful

    256. Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.


    The Glorios Qur'an: Surah 2. The Cow.
     
  19. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +147
    Christian
    Single
    I fail to see where Allah was compassionate and mercifull on sept 11&nbsp; .&nbsp;&nbsp;

    Go away zico&nbsp; ,&nbsp; your like a dag on a sheeps butt ,&nbsp; and your attracting the flies&nbsp; .
     
  20. The Simpleton

    The Simpleton New Member

    65
    +0
    &nbsp;

    Quote from Mambutuu

    Yo man, that ain't cool. Be cool to Zico. That isn't very nice to call what he wrote fanatical gibberish. Don't flame.

    Mambutuu and Zico, I apologize for being rude and I mean that. :sorry:

    However, I didn’t think it was polite for you Zico to attempt to hijack this discussion that had nothing to do with how Islam views Jesus&nbsp;the Christ, or whether Islam is superior to Christianity. Zico, if you want to have an intelligent conversation with Christians concerning this sort of discussion matter, why don’t you go start your own thread?? But when you just barge into a discussion the way you did, you should expect some hostility. Overall, you will find that people here are very polite but you have to play by the rules.

    Zico, I have a simple question that shouldn’t require a 1000-word response. Why are you here? You’re a Muslim on a Christian board. What’s up with that?? My guess is to throw out your Islamic rhetoric and rile up some Christians, and then have a good laugh, which is time you could spend better, but I could be wrong about your motives. So you tell me, why oh why are you here Zico???? :confused: :scratch:
    &nbsp;
     
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