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Can someone be saved and deny Jesus being God

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Ultimate, Jun 24, 2002.

  1. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

    +125
    Christian
    Married
    that's right!    If you want God, then take Jesus for all who he is. If you cannot take Jesus for all that he is and said he was, then drop the whole God thing, because it won't work!  Tell your friend that he is wasting his life without faith in Christ. His eternity does not lie in the hands of the father if he rejects Jesus as God. Jesus being God is the core to belief.

    John 3:36
    Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
     
  2. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
     
  3. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Jesus claimed to be God.  So He was either a liar, or He was truly God.  He said, "before Abraham was, I Am."   I Am is God and that is the name God gave to Moses.

    Thomas proclaimed, "My Lord and my God."

    Jesus also said, "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father."

     
     
  4. Autumn

    Autumn Member

    190
    +0
    Here is something to think about.  The Holy Spirit, which is in you, glorifies Jesus.  When you pray you should be praying through the Spirit, which will glorify Jesus.  Jesus glorifies God.  They all willingly put themselves below eachother even though they are all one and the same. 

     
     
  5. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
     
  6. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +2
    Ed...

    Jesus and God are one...you could never say "if you have seen me you have seen my father", (even if you looked like him)and be truthful because it would be untrue... because you are not the same...but with Jesus it is true...reason why: their Spirit is the same... and that's why He could proclaim truthfully and simply...

    Your argument about Jesus not correcting Thomas is futile as well...this is all in my opinion of course...
     
  7. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

    +125
    Christian
    Married
     

    Dude, I was not using the verse in that way. If you re-read it, you will follow my logic. Jesus being God IS THE foundation to faith. Anyone can believe he was a nice guy, even my atheist brother believes that!!!!

    If Jesus being God is the foundation to faith in the first place, then the verse applies. I was not looking for verses to support that Jesus is God, because that is OFF TOPIC.

    The bottom line is that guy's friend is gonna spend an eternity away from God if he does not believe in Jesus. Why would anyone believe he was the only way to heaven if he was  not God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    My Aunt who is "catholic" told me one time that it is easy for her to believe in Mary (mother of God) and to pray to Mary. She did not feel comfortable praying to Jesus, nor did she see why she should pray to him. Then I brought it to her attention that Mary is  NOTHING if Jesus was not God. 

    You see, it is the divinity of Christ that makes him anything.  It is essential to faith that one recognized that Jesus IS God.
     
  8. A Sheep

    A Sheep Stop the suffering in Iraq

    +1
    First things first... why did Jesus have to die?  The answer is because of God's law stating that in order for God to forgive a person(or persons) blood had to be shed. 

    So for forgiveness in the OT times, once a year the head priest would go into the temple and sacrifice a lamb, to "forgive" the Jews sins.  (The word forgive is in parenthesis because the shedding of blood never redeemed anyone, it was faith that made them rightous (in the eyes of God), but we never new this clearly until Jesus came).  So why did the head priest have to go into the temple and sacrifice a lamb every year?  Why not just sacrifice one lamb and have the Jews remember the lamb's sacrifice and be forgiven?  Because the lamb was not God-in-the-flesh. 

    So in order for one sacrifice to be an event that people in all generations could be forgiven by just asking for forgiveness and believing in the death and resurrection, the sacrifice would have to be completely without sin, and also be born without a sin nature.  So God came in the flesh born through the Holy Spirit and into a virgin.  That way the sacrifice would have no sin nature (because of the virgin conception) and would last for more than one year because it was not an animal or just a fallen human it was God-in-the-flesh!

    A few quick points:

    -Why would the Holy Spirit go unto a virgin and cause her to have a child without a sin nature for?  If it wasn't God-in-the-flesh and only an average human being born then why did the Holy Spirit have to get involved?   I would think that the Holy Spirit would only go unto a virgin if it was God being manifesting in the flesh.  Does that make sense to you?

    -Remember Jesus said that He was laying down His life at His own accord and that He Himself would raise His body on the third day, now isn't a resurrection only something that God can do?

    -Also remember John1:1, other parts of John, Hebrews6:19-7:3, and in Revelation where He says that He is the Beginning(Alpha) and the End(Omega).

    -How could a human dying on a crucifix redeem someone 1000-3000 years in the future?

    -The only answer is the Trinity, Three persons, One God, all three equal and Eternal, never being created.

    -The Bible never actually uses the specific word "Trinity", but it is written all over the OT and NT.
     
  9. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +2
    Hey Ed,

    Read 1John if you want to see how the Bible deals with people who don't believe the Son is of the Father...What does the Bible call them? And for all you dispy's this also answers one of your "sign's of the times" questions...just wanted to throw that in there and definitely do not want this thread heading in that direction...Ha Ha...
     
  10. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

    +125
    Christian
    Married
      

     
     
    ===========================================================

    John 1:29-34

    The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
    Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."



    =======================================================



    John 4:25-26

    The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."
    Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

    42

    They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."




    ========================================================


    John 7:40-43

    On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is the Prophet." Others said, "He is the Christ." Still others asked, "How can the Christ come from Galilee? Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David's family and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?" Thus the people were divided because of Jesus



    ========================================================



    John 8 :12-30

    When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
    Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me." Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"
    "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
    Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."
    This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?" But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
    "Who are you?" they asked. "Just what I have been claiming all along,"
    Jesus replied. "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world." They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.



    =====  note the next verse in relation to the last bold ..  ===============



    Matthew 27:54

    When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, "Surely he was the Son of God!"

    (JUST AS JESUS SAID, THEY KNEW HE WAS GOD!!!)



    =======================================================

    John 8: 54-58

    Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"



    =======================================================

    John 10:30

    I and the Father are one.



    =======================================================

     

    READ THIS !! 

    I spent a little time in the gospel of John to show you that Jesus made the claim. I could go on much further, but I won't. If this guy wants to know why he should believe that Jesus is God, have him carefully examine the gospel of John. He will see the truth.
     
  11. Zico

    Zico Alhamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen

    241
    +1
    Muslim
    Single
    US-Republican
    72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

    73. They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

    74. Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.

    75. Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

    76. Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."

    77. Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.

    The Noble Quran, Surah 5 The Table, (The Table Spread)
     
  12. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +152
    Christian
    Single
    ha ha ha hahahahah ha ha hahah haha ha ha ha

    This guy is so funny . ha ha ha ha hahahahahahahah .
     
  13. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +152
    Christian
    Single
    Go for it Zico . ha ha ha ha hahahah ah ha . Give it to em . ha ha ha ha ha haah ha . Do you own thing man ! . hahahahaahahha ha ha ha ha
     
  14. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    I would think you were insane. So, either Jesus was insane, or he was actually God. Which do YOU believe Ed?

    Have you never heard of a partnership? Two people run the same business together?

    My fiance owns a business with his brothers. There are THREE heads of the business. They don't make any major decisions without each other. They are looking to relocate the business, and their corporation agreement calls for 100% agreement between them before they do it.

    Why would that be so puzzling to you Ed?
     
  15. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +2
    lambslove,

    I really like your reply to Ed's first argument, but your second I would like to add on if I may...I believe Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit have the same thoughts at the same time so, unlike a business, there would not need to be a meeting of the minds...because they all have the same mind...as well as the same Spirit...the mind and Spirit of God...
     
  16. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    Isaiah 43:10


    Isaiah 43
    10 "You are my witnesses," declares the Lord ,
    "and my servant whom I have chosen,
    so that you may know and believe me
    and understand that I am he.
    Before me no god was formed,
    nor will there be one after me.


    Where does it say that the speaker was Jesus?
     
  17. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    Zico, do you know anything about Mohammed? Did he have the lifestyle and attributes of a prophet? Was he ever given to fits of uncontained anger? Did he ever engage in wholesale murder? Are there any contradictions evident in his life?

    Now contrast with Jesus. Mohammed never claimed to BE God, Jesus DID. Did Jesus have the attributes and lifestyle of a "man-of-God"? Were there contradictions in Him? Was He believable?

    Why do you quote from the Kuran on a Christian message board? Do you seek validation? An argument? Did I just give you what you sought? The two great principles in Islam are "serve God, and jihad". The two great principles in Christianity, are "love God with all that you are, and love each other". In major Moslem countries, mentioning Jesus will get you JAILED, if not KILLED. In Christian countries, mentioning Mohammed, carries no consequence. Which system sounds more consistent with an omnipotent, loving God? And which is not? Which system exhibits fruit of goodness, which system spawns evil and terrorism? (hcarttc...)

    "Can someone be saved and deny Jesus being God"?

    Jesus is God. No beginning, no end. To deny Jesus' diety, is to deny Jesus HIMSELF. There is no salvation among those who deny Jesus...
     
  18. Chris†opher Paul

    Chris†opher Paul Based on a True Story

    +4
    How would the people that lived before Jesus be saved then?  ;)  How would a very "good" Hindu be saved?
     
  19. ATAT

    ATAT New Member

    43
    +1
    Jesus said to forgive others to be saved.

    (ref Luke 6:37 & Mat 6 and many other places)

     

    He did not claim to be God at John 8 & John 10.

     

    That's where he tried to make it clear he was 'sent' by God as a man mediator to speak on God's behalf like any other prophet.

     

     
     
  20. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

    +125
    Christian
    Married
    Oh man, we have a bunch of blind people who post here!

    This should have been a one page thread, and that's it.

    This is a very easy point to see that Jesus Christ made the claim he was God, then he proved it with his life and death.
     
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