Can science continue without a belief in God?

[dad]

Yeah, of course it does. You always get an answer: Yes, No, or Later.

Funnily enough, I get the same answers when I pray to my toaster. And also, isn't it strange how those people who pray for limbs to grow back always get a No answer? Is God not capable of regrowing lost limbs?



You have demonstrated over and over again that you are incapable of recognising evidence or fact.

You have demonstrated that you have no facts to offer. Maybe pray to the toaster more?

 

[Kylie]

You have demonstrated that you have no facts to offer. Maybe pray to the toaster more?

Classic projection.

 

[Astrophile]

Even Richard Dawkins Ph. D. in an interview admitted that he could not rule out the possibility of an alien civilization becoming technologically advanced on another planet...... coming to this earth and perhaps playing a role in human evolution or history.

The fact that such a possibility can't be ruled out doesn't mean that it is at all probable. Show me some evidence that such a thing has happened, and the hypothesis will be worth considering.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

True... but if we know somebody who is struggling with suicidal thoughts the NDE accounts were proven to be an effective therapy in at least one study that, if I remember correctly, was referred to in the book "Transformed By The Light."

Uplifting stories may be effective, as can antidepressants, regular exercise, meditation, social activities such as choral singing, group dancing, or community volunteering. In one case I'm familiar with, retirement relieved a persistent depression. Your point is?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Even Richard Dawkins Ph. D. in an interview admitted that he could not rule out the possibility of an alien civilization becoming technologically advanced on another planet...... coming to this earth and perhaps playing a role in human evolution or history. That admission...... was a good idea on his part but.... as soon as he stated that it was obvious that he is more of an Agnostic than an Atheist. Perhaps labelling himself an Atheist he may be able to sell more books.

That is after the three minute mark in this video.....

Atheism is not having belief in a god or gods. Allowing the possibility that life on Earth is of alien origin doesn't change that; and, as Dawkins himself said, that possibility raises the question of how the alien life got started and evolved.

Personally... I believe that the far more likely scenario.... is for intelligence to come into existence in fundamental energy.... which could roughly correspond with Energy from Quantum Vacuum.


Space Is Not Empty, It’s Actually Full of Energy: The Quantum Vacuum

That article is misleading; vacuum energy cannot be 'used' - the Casimir effect shows an aspect of it, but you can't extract energy from the vacuum any more than you can from the magnetic force. More energy must be expended to set up the effect and to separate the plates once they have come together than you can extract from their attraction.

There is no 'fundamental' energy in physics - the energy of the quantum vacuum is in the random fluctuations of the quantum fields, which all average zero in the vacuum (except the Higgs field). The Casimir effect shows that by excluding longer wavelength particles from between the plates, there is a very weak net force exerted by those particles outside the plates.

 

[Whyayeman]

I think many people get rather misled by the scientific use of the word 'law'. Scientists are merely offering a more or less trustworthy guide to how the material universe behaves, rather than actually 'laying down the law'. These laws are provisional - subject to revision when the observed world appears to diverge from the predictions scientific laws suggest. As Einstein keeps getting mentioned here we might as well start relativity. The relativity laws were posited to explain phenomena which did not quite conform to the predictions of Newtonian physics and came to some surprising conclusions.

It is quite possible that Einstein's work will be superseded when it fails to describe accurately some as yet unknown phenomenon.

If people want to find a place for a God in the universe that is fine with me.

 

[plugh]

It would appear that your truly brilliant Theoretical Physicist either doesn't understand what Atheism and Agnosticism actually are, or he's just misled. I agree that scientists need to be agnostic, but there's no reason why they can't be atheists.

FWIW, this Truly Brilliant Theoretical Physicist - who seems to grow superlatives each time Dennis mentions him - appears to be Dr Chaim Henry Tejman MD.

So if we solve Dennis' equation, and substitute reality for misplaced terms such as "brilliant, physicist, or scientist" the term reduces to: "according to some [religeous] geezer on the internet"

 

[morse86]

Science cannot exist without God because he is what created the foundations of the world.

This is why you have crackpots like Michio Kaka and Neil Hollywood Actor Degrasse with their nonsense rubbish string theory that has nothing to do with real empirical science.

 

[Kylie]

Science cannot exist without God because he is what created the foundations of the world.

Citation required.

 

[morse86]

Citation required.

The nonsense big bang theory is what requires evidence. It violates all the laws of thermodynamics for "half a second" and then magically come into existent? I mean seriously, do you even question the stuff you read in your papers/textbooks?????????

 

[Speedwell]

The nonsense big bang theory is what requires evidence. It violates all the laws of thermodynamics for "half a second" and then magically come into existent? I mean seriously, do you even question the stuff you read in your papers/textbooks?????????

You think your God couldn't do that?

 

[Kylie]

The nonsense big bang theory is what requires evidence. It violates all the laws of thermodynamics for "half a second" and then magically come into existent? I mean seriously, do you even question the stuff you read in your papers/textbooks?????????

What makes you think the laws of thermodynamics operate in a singularity. Our current understanding shows that they do not.

And you STILL haven't provided any evidence for your claim. Question mine does not advance yours.

 

[dms1972]

Gen 1:26

¶
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

I believe that the meeting of the male spermatozoa with the ova was the original meeting of Super Strings with Super Waves...... that began the working and learning process of G-d.


I believe that G-d existed from eternity in the past.... and with the Word / Logos and the Holy Spirit was working and working and inventing.... and even planning and choreographing Big Bang type events.

The following sure sounds like the Cyclic Model of the Universe explained in chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe but.... this version is done by G-d ....

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

I still don't understand how this is God evolving. Perhaps God did create using a evolutionary process, but is that the same as God learning? Perhaps He knew in advance all the stages and how environment would affect the process, not so much learning but guiding the process, till it reached what he had in mind (like a potter with a lump of clay)?

On scripture accounts the first man and woman were not generated, they were created, there has to be one pair male and female that have not been generated, but created. Humans can make things (paintings, sculptures, books etc) from a creative idea in their mind or imagination that they had to begin with, maybe that's a part of being made in God's Image?

 

[DennisTate]

I still don't how this is God evolving. Perhaps God did create using a evolutionary process, but is that the same as God learning? Perhaps He knew in advance all the stages and how environment would affect the process, not so much learning but guiding the process, till it reached what he had in mind (like a potter with a lump of clay)?

On scripture accounts the first man and woman were not generated, they were created, there has to be one pair male and female that have not been generated, but created. Humans can make things (paintings, sculptures, books etc) from a creative idea in their mind or imagination that they had to begin with, maybe that's a part of being made in God's Image?

I agree... the first man and woman were created.....
with adult bodies.......

But for essentially infinite time in the past as G-d worked and worked and experimented and
got better and better at organizing Big Bang type events........ G-d learning could be termed.....
G-d evolving...... because Jesus told us to agree with our adversaries to the degree that they may actually be correct.......

I believe that we Christians are approaching our squabble with scientists in the wrong way....

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

5. The Void

At this point of my near-death experience, I found myself in a profound stillness, beyond all silence. I could see or perceive FOREVER, beyond Infinity. I was in the Void.



I was in pre creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time / the First Word/the First vibration. I was in the Eye of Creation. I felt as if I was touching the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply I was at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness. When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That’s a mind-expanding thought, isn’t it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event that created the Universe. I saw during my life after death experience that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by super computers using fractal geometry equations.

The ancients knew of this. They said God had periodically created new Universes by breathing out, and recreated other Universes by breathing in. These epochs were called Yugas. Modern science called this the Big Bang. I was in absolute, pure consciousness. I could see or perceive all the Big Bangs or Yugas creating and recreating themselves. Instantly I entered into them all simultaneously. I saw that each and every little piece of creation has the power to create. It is very difficult to try to explain this. I am still speechless about this.

 

[DennisTate]

Atheism is not having belief in a god or gods. Allowing the possibility that life on Earth is of alien origin doesn't change that; and, as Dawkins himself said, that possibility raises the question of how the alien life got started and evolved.

That article is misleading; vacuum energy cannot be 'used' - the Casimir effect shows an aspect of it, but you can't extract energy from the vacuum any more than you can from the magnetic force. More energy must be expended to set up the effect and to separate the plates once they have come together than you can extract from their attraction.

There is no 'fundamental' energy in physics - the energy of the quantum vacuum is in the random fluctuations of the quantum fields, which all average zero in the vacuum (except the Higgs field). The Casimir effect shows that by excluding longer wavelength particles from between the plates, there is a very weak net force exerted by those particles outside the plates.

There is some interesting evidence related to all that.....

If you actually want to know what probably has happened in the past... These may help....

Science and the Near-Death Experience

Scientific knowledge is always in a state of flux. New scientific discoveries come along and overthrow long-held hypotheses. A good example of this is the attempt by humanity to explain the phenomenon of light. Before the dawn of science, humanity relied on religious experience and philosophy to understand light and the cosmos. The Bible declares the universe began when God said, "Let there be light." Ancient religious texts throughout history have associated light with divine consciousness - a consciousness from which everything, including all other consciousness, originated. The Bible declares, "God is light." Eminent physicist, David Bohm, viewed all matter as "condensed" or "frozen light." Physicist Stephen Hawking once stated ,"When you break subatomic particles down to their most elemental level, you are left with nothing but pure light." Science discovered light was pervasive at the beginning of the universe. Scientists recently discovered the so-called "God Particle" - the particle which bestows mass upon all other particles. This particle is very crucial to physics because it is our final understanding of the structure of all matter. Albert Einstein's great equation E=mc2 (where E is for energy, m for mass and c is the speed of light) describes the awesome power and energy holding all atoms together. Surprisingly, the Bible supports Einstein's equation when it declares: "God is the invisible power holding all things together." This transcendent view of consciousness is the basis for major world religions. So it shouldn't be surprising why top quantum physicists were influenced by religion. Erwin Schrodinger, for example, studied Hinduism; Werner Heisenberg looked into Plato's theory of the ancient Greeks; Niels Bohr was drawn to the Tao; Wolfgang Pauli to the Kabbalah; and Max Plank to Christianity.


Table of Contents

1. The holistic merger of science and spirituality 12. Black hole physics and the NDE
2. Quantum physics and the NDE 13. Biocentrism and the NDE
3. Quantum interconnectivity and the NDE 14. Subjective experiences and the NDE
4. The holographic universe and the NDE 15. Scientific articles on NDEs and its relationship to physics
5. The holonomic brain and the NDE 16. Scientific discoveries resulting from NDEs
6. Quantum consciousness and the NDE 17. Scientific theories explaining NDEs
7. Nonlocal consciousness and the God spot 18. Near-death studies research conclusions
8. Quantum superposition and the NDE 19. Events which can trigger an OBE or NDE
9. The many-worlds theory and the NDE 20. Scientific discoveries are coming from another dimension
10. The many-minds theory and the NDE 21. Television-like technology exists in the afterlife
11. The zero-point field and the NDE 22. Computer-like technology exists in the afterlife

 

[plugh]

I agree... the first man and woman were created.....
with adult bodies.......

Your "agreeing" with something as absurd and silly as the above, doesn't make it any less daft. If you look around, you'll find plenty of well-educated Christians who have no difficulty keeping their religious beliefs intact in the face of scientific discovery.

But for essentially infinite time in the past as G-d worked and worked and experimented and
got better and better at organizing Big Bang type events........ G-d learning could be termed.....
G-d evolving...... because Jesus told us to agree with our adversaries to the degree that they may actually be correct.......

You appear to be saying this god needed multiple bites at the cherry apple. Why couldn't he get it right the first time? And, aside from just plucking this out of nowhere, why would you say such a thing?

I believe that we Christians are approaching our squabble with scientists in the wrong way....

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's approach appears to be that he bought the Deepak Chopra writing kit with the bonus "1980's website design 101" course, claims to have died from a terminal condition, then lived, whilst simultaneously enjoying a near-death experience.

Were you aware that Mellen-Thomas Benedict was indicted by the State of California for multiple fraudulent business practices related to his Tru-Light Corporation?

http://www.dbo.ca.gov/ENF/pdf/t/Tru-Light_FinalJudgment.pdf

Specifically, many people were ripped off and lost their money due to this light therapy nonsense that he claimed was influenced from the "other side". Offering false hope to desperate people is a pretty low way to make a living.

But hey, he claims he had an NDE so everything he says is true. Why? Well, because he says so. That's why.

It's puzzling, as this suggests you simply sign up for any verbiage that agrees with whatever it is that you want to hear without consideration as to its veracity.

Maybe that's why you're appealing to distinctly dodgy sources in order to maintain your defence of feels vs reals.

 

[Kylie]

There is some interesting evidence related to all that.....

If you actually want to know what probably has happened in the past... These may help....

Science and the Near-Death Experience

NDEs have scientific explanations, and they are not a doorway to some screts about the universe.

Peace of Mind: Near-Death Experiences Now Found to Have Scientific Explanations

https://listverse.com/2015/04/14/10-scientific-explanations-for-near-death-experiences/

The Truth About Near Death Experiences: Scientific Explanations of NDE and OBE

 

[dms1972]

I agree... the first man and woman were created.....
with adult bodies.......

But for essentially infinite time in the past as G-d worked and worked and experimented and
got better and better at organizing Big Bang type events........ G-d learning could be termed.....
G-d evolving...... because Jesus told us to agree with our adversaries to the degree that they may actually be correct.......

I believe that we Christians are approaching our squabble with scientists in the wrong way....

Mellen-Thomas Benedict's Near-Death Experience

Does 'settling matters quickly with an adversary' refer to worldview issues? I thought it was about someone who is suing you or taking you to court?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There is some interesting evidence related to all that.....

If you actually want to know what probably has happened in the past... These may help....

Science and the Near-Death Experience

Not really. The Gish-gallop text you quoted is gibberish.

Saying "God is light" means that God is the visible spectrum of the electromagnetic force. That doesn't help anyone.

Einstein's equation is nothing to do with God or what 'holds all things together'. What holds all things together are the strong nuclear force, the electromagnetic force, and gravity, in order of scale. This has nothing to do with consciousness.

I'd like to see a citation and context for the quote attributed to Hawking, because to a physicist, 'pure' is a meaningless qualifier for light, and he would be well aware that fundamental particles are not made of light.

The Higgs boson was called the 'God Particle' in the title of Leon Lederman's book on the Higgs, by the publisher, and in the face of Lederman's and Peter Higg's objections. It was a provocative title designed to court publicity and sell the book.

 

[durangodawood]

The speed of light is not a ratio....

distance / time ???