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Can Salvation be lost?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Trivalee, Sep 3, 2021.

  1. HIM

    HIM Friend Supporter

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    Verses 19-25 is an exhortation that begins with the writer calling out to brethren which means the writer considers the people he is writing to to be of the faith. He then continues the exhortation in verse 20, and 22 in the first person plural with the word US in connection to the way being consecrated and their hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and bodies washed with pure water. If your hearts are sprinkled and our bodies washed we are saved.
    Then again the writer in verse 23 councils in the 1st person plural that they, including himself should hold fast their profession of faith without wavering because of God's faithfulness. Then continuing in the first person plural He says in verses 24 and 25 that they, including himself should provoke unto love and good works as they see the day approaching.
    These people the writer considers brothers in the consecrated way having their hearts sprinkled from and evil conscience and their bodies washed. They are to profess this faith without wavering. They are to provoke unto love and good works and our counseled not to forsake the assembling together as some do because they see the Day approaching. These people are likeminded believers with writer. They are saved.

    Then Continuing In Verse 26 with the word FOR. Which means what is about to be said is the reason for what was previously stated.
    The writer continues in the 1st person plural continuing to include himself in the admonition. How do we know? He uses the word we. Couple that with Verse 29 when he says that the sinning willfully individual was sanctified.

    TRY actually addressing the points of this post rather then just posting a opinion. PROVE what is being stated here is wrong point by point and we will recant. What is posted in this post are all objective facts. As is the fact that if we are sinning willfully, we whom are sanctified, having the way consecrated before us. Our bodies washed with pure water and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience. We the brethren, if we are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Only a certain fearful looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversary, those whom are sinning willfully.

    And it would fail us not to mention after the admonition in verse 26-30 the writer starts in verse 32 with the word but and then begins to exhort those to whom he is speaking. Calling them illuminated.

    You can't be sanctified, made holy and not be saved. Because you are not sanctified, made holy unless you have been saved.

    Incidentally these sanctified illuminated individuals are counseled to not cast away their confidence in verse 35 and within the same thought they are told that they are in need of patience, cheerful endurance. That after they done the will of God they MIGHT receive the promise. Which implies they MIGHT not receive the promise if they do not cheerfully endure.


    TRY actually addressing the points of this post rather then just posting a opinion. PROVE what is being stated here is wrong point by point and we will recant. What is posted in this post are all objective facts. As is the fact that if we are sinning willfully, we whom are sanctified, having the way consecrated before us. Our bodies washed with pure water and our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience. We the brethren, if we are sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Only a certain fearful looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversary, those whom are sinning willfully.


    Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
    Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
    Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
    Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
    Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)
    Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
    Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
    Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
     
  2. Hammster

    Hammster I’m for peace, but when I speak, They are for war. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    Not necessarily. If he’s a Jew writing to Jews, they’d be his brethren.


    For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
    Romans 9:3
     
  3. HIM

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    Maybe so but these brethren were Sanctified, having their heart sprinkled from an evil conscience and their bodies wash by the pure water. And these brethren were with the writer through the writer were admonished not To be sinning willfully after they received the knowledge of this truth.
     
  4. Trivalee

    Trivalee Member Supporter

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    I was raised studying the KJV Bible, so forgive me for using the word "saved" to describe our state after becoming born-again. In KJV, 'saved' is used interchangeably to denote coming to faith/born-again/salvation (Rom 10:9) and eternal redemption/immortality; vide Matt 24:13.

    And I agree with you!
     
  5. Trivalee

    Trivalee Member Supporter

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    Would please elaborate or clarify the following for me?
    • The difference between "rebirth" and "born again"?
    • And explain why after rebirth, it is impossible to lose salvation?
    • Also, explain what "severe punishment" means for a born-again that chose a lawless lifestyle?
     
  6. Trivalee

    Trivalee Member Supporter

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    I appreciate your diligence and scholarship given your detailed exegesis. You have posited that once saved, it is impossible to lose it. I am glad you made references to Paul's argument in Rom 11 concerning the fate of his people, Israel, in comparison to the Gentiles.

    Given your extensive citations, I can match you with an equal list of scriptures in rebuttal, but that would be superfluous. Instead, I will rely on just one unambiguous passage to show that salvation, being saved or born-again - whichever phrase that works, can be lost if one fails to abide in Christ to the end.

    Please consider the following carefully.
    • Paul explained that Israel (some, not all) was broken off as branches from the olive tree(from Christ) because of unbelief. Rom 11:20
    • Do you agree that an unbeliever, Jew or Gentile will not be grafted into the olive tree, ie Christ?
    • If you agree, then we both concede that the Gentiles grafted in are those that believe. That is, the saved born-again believers according to Rom 11:17.
    • On this premise, kindly share your thoughts on the boldened part of the citation below:
    • Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    If a saved, born-again believer is CUT OFF from Christ for failing to remain in Christ, what does it mean?

    I've read some of the illogical reasons given in support of the "once saved, forever saved" theory which includes among others, that a true born-again cannot fall away from Christ. But this view contradicts what the Bible teaches.

    Look at it this way, if there is zero possibility of a truly saved believer falling away then the numerous exhortations to persevere and abide in Christ to the end would have been redundant and unnecessary, do you not agree?
     
  7. Trivalee

    Trivalee Member Supporter

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    God is immutable, FACT.
    Man is fickle, mutable, inconstant. FACT.

    There is no guarantee that a saved believer may not for reasons known to him, forsake Christ and return to the world. And when he does, God will not stop him. FACT!
     
  8. Trivalee

    Trivalee Member Supporter

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  9. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    I am sorry but I do not believe in OSAS and in my long post I said things like: Paul has also been talking about some that were branches being cut off (this would mean OSAS will not work)
     
  10. Trivalee

    Trivalee Member Supporter

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    You came across as one that diligently studies the holy book and I was hoping for an objective discourse. Rather disappointed that you brusquely dismissed a valid and understandably challenging point; perhaps, it undermines your whole doctrine.

    The accusation of OSAS would have been valid if I'd conjured up a theory lacking scriptural support. Fortunately, all I did was to point to a text you conveniently ignored in the same chapter you cited. Should we not take the instructions in scripture as a whole or should we pick and choose only the bits that give us the feel-good factor?
     
  11. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When God intends to draw a soul, there is nothing that will stop Him. His Soveriegn will cannot be striven against and overcome. He will keep that convert by the power of His Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth. Anyone who is truly born again will never forsake Christ.
     
  12. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First, someone who is truly born again won’t, in my opinion choose a lawless lifestyle. When you understand the punishment, you choose to stay away from it. Born again and rebirth are the same things in my mind. Once your sealed, you stay sealed until the day of your redemption. I hope these simple answers are helpful.
     
  13. Trivalee

    Trivalee Member Supporter

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    Thank you so much for the clarity. I appreciate your candour in that you confirmed that your position is based on "your opinion" and not necessarily what the bible teaches.

    I disagree with your view of course, but nonetheless, I wish you well in your bible studies.
     
  14. Trivalee

    Trivalee Member Supporter

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    Your argument would be logical if we are discussing philosophy where sound rhetoric wins. Unfortunately, this is a bible discussion and an argument devoid of scriptural backing is no more than a conjecture and your reader(s) has no obligation to accept it.

    If you can perhaps, come back with scripture to back your case, I will use the passage for my rebuttal. But without scripture, I refuse to accept your personal speculation as scriptural truth.
     
  15. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jeremiah 32:40
    Romans 8:30
     
  16. Trivalee

    Trivalee Member Supporter

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    I will not respond to abstract citations. When you quote scripture, explain how it ties into your case because the same scriptures could be used to make a different argument.
     
  17. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You asked for scriptures about preserverence of the saints, which was my position, that true saints will be preserved by God. I gave you some. You refuse to interact with them. Here are some more:

    Psalms 37:28
    John 10:27-28
    John 6:37
     
  18. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Yes, "Once Saved, Always Saved".

    As for the questions your pose, many can be answered by the basic principle that the saved endure to the end.

    John writes, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

    Thus John would evaluate those who fall away as not having been saved in the first place.

    Furthermore John writes, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

    Thus those who point out verses which correlate salvation with behavior fail to take into account that principle. The nature of regeneration is such that those born of God do not continue in sin.

    And that pretty much covers all the anti-Eternal security objections.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe Jeremiah 32:40 is written to the Jew and this will be fulfilled for them in the Millennium or 1,000 year reign of Christ (after the Lord Jesus returns here upon this Earth).

    Quoting this verse is like with the situation with the Canaanite woman. Jesus told her that it’s not fit (not meet, or not proper) to cast the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. The Canaanite woman could have walked away thinking Jesus was making a definitive truth that had no other exceptions. But the Canaanite woman said that even the dogs eat the crumbs from the master’s table. Jesus did not rebuke her but he said great was her faith.

    In other words, if Romans 8:30 was the only verse in the Bible, you might be on to something. But it is not. There are plenty of other truths in Scripture that teach that believers can fall away from the faith, and or die spiritually by abiding in unrepentant or unconfessed grievous sin (or major sin that leads to spiritual death).

    Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

    Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

    Hebrews 3:12-14
    Hebrews 4:11
    Hebrews 6:4-9
    Hebrews 10:26-30
    Hebrews 12:15
    1 Timothy 1:18-20
    1 Timothy 4:1-7
    Galatians 5:2-4
    2 Peter 2:20-22
    2 Peter 3:17
    Luke 8:11-15
    1 Corinthians 10:12
    2 Thessalonians 2:3


    Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

    Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

    Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
    Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
    The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
    Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Matthew 10:1, Matthew 10:16) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
    Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
    Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
    Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
    Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
    Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
    Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


    And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

    The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
    Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
    The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
    Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
    Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
    Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
    Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
    Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
    Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
    The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
    (James 5:19-20)

    For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).


    Actually, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

    1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).

    2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).

    3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).

    4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).

    5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).

    6. God will destroy those believers who defile their temples by sin (See: 1 Corinthians 3:3, and 1 Corinthians 3:17; Also see Galatians 5:19-21).

    7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).

    8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).

    9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).

    10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2021 at 11:41 AM
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Anyways, so what about Romans 8:30?
    How do I explain it?

    Well, I believe it is referring to those believers who loved God in this life (See: Romans 8:28).

    But Paul does not negate the possibility that a believer (in the present tense) can live after the flesh and die. For in context…

    Romans 8:13 says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”


    Side Note:

    Romans 8:13 is referring to spiritual death because it is contrasted with everlasting life.
     
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