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Can Salvation be lost?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Trivalee, Sep 3, 2021.

  1. Trivalee

    Trivalee New Member Supporter

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    There are differing views on salvation.

    Some Christians believe that once saved, one cannot lose salvation. IOW, they believe that eternal life is guaranteed. On the flip side, there are those that believe that even though we are saved, we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life.

    What is your position on this topic? Kindly support your case with relevant scriptures.
     
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  2. .Jeremiah.

    .Jeremiah. Active Member

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    Great question

    My position:
    Once “saved”, I can’t see how it could be lost, since it would require an active effort of the person to abandon the Lord.

    But, then, one must ask the question:
    What does it mean to be “saved”?
     
  3. Tolworth John

    Tolworth John Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who saves/ Is it our efforts, or is it all of God?

    Because if it is God who saves us we cannot, by our efforts loose what he has given us.
     
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  4. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Well-Known Member

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    Depends on your definition of being "saved." For relevance to those of us still living, I call it being in a state of grace, if you die not in that state you will be damned and if you die in that state you will be eternally saved. It is possible to go into a state of grace (obviously) but one can lose it again, as in the verses Galatians 1:6, Ezekiel 18:24, and so on. Gifts can be rejected.
     
  5. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    For me based on what you said "we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life". Theres truth in what you said yet also not written. Well where did this kind of thought come from? Yeah not from God. It has doubt worry fear in it. Salvation is a gift.. try to give back ANY gift God gave you. He does not take them back. Some love to use "sheep and goats" as proof yet.. Christ will say to those there " I never knew you".

    So.. does Christ know you now? Or is He like man and.. "I once knew you but.. wow over time It seems I never knew you." No He is not.. He says I never knew you. They were never saved. Another thing here is some seem to think those saved can use the name of Jesus. :) Jesus said ANYONE that comes to me I will not cast out. Jesus said we are in the Fathers hands. Yes I know that "but I can still leave if I want to".. leave what? That there makes you wonder if they ever knew Him at all.

    So me? I am right now living forever. He still talks to me.. man there are times that all I see is sin in my life yet.. He has not changed what so ever. Loves me talks to me.. as He did when I was very young in the lord. Some things going on in my life where seems a WHERE ARE YOU? I LOVE LOVE LOVE Music.. that gives HIM all the glory and praise so not feeling good this is knowing we walk by faith not feelings. Asked to give me a song something I have older, something I have not heard of in a while.

    So what happens? I woke up singing a David Meece song "you were the reason that He gave His life you were the reason He suffered and died". Now if you know the song its "WE" are the reason. I remember in collage walking one night singing "soon and very soon we are going to see the king"... He just told me to change we to I am. He is a personal God. We forget this. Hes GOD so yeah YOU were on His mind when He came.. when He died.. He can look you in the eyes and say YOU were the reason I came and died. And you KNOW its just YOU no one else.. You alone were the reason.. yet you also know He does this for each one of us.. HOW I don't know.. so wonderful the love He has for us.

    So.. why worry think about a day you were never promised.. fall away? I think I will stay in this moment. And as if when you fall miss it I WANT OUT what ever.. as if that one moment in TIME is all He looked at? That NEW man can not be undone.. go for it.. try to UNDO what ONLY a GOD can do.
     
  6. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    Can salvation be lost? God doesn't lose anything. Does He find a couple of lost sheep? Or does He find and rescue every lost sheep and then abandon them? Is every person around you on Sunday mornings a sheep?

    Psalm 23 KJV

    Philippians 4:19 And my God will supply all your needs according to His glorious riches in Christ Jesus.

    John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.
     
  7. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    Not "lost," but willfully forsaken.
    1. Everyone who [still] wants to be Saved can be.
    2. Anyone who has gone past the "point of no return" will lose the desire to be Saved (and any fear of Judgment) because the Holy Spirit no longer convicts them.
    3. It is God Who decides where that point is (in each life), not us.
    4. The intrusive thoughts of OCD ARE NOT the "unforgivable sin!"
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2021
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It means to be saved from an eternity in Hell. Hell is the place where those who refuse to repent and believe the Gospel live on under the eternal wrath of God for their sins.

    Just saying the sinner's prayer is not enough. The Scripture says "He who endures to the end will be saved". Being saved involves knowing that we are bad in the presence of a good God, knowing that our good God has not alternative but to punish bad people, and that because of our badness we deserve to go to Hell. But Jesus suffered and died on the cross to take the wrath of God upon Himself for our sin and badness, and exchanged it for His righteousness so we can stand in the presence of God without guilt, shame or fear of punishment. But we cannot stay there. We need to repent of our sinful ways, believe the Gospel and be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and be open to Him to form the fruit of repentance in us, because "without holiness no one will see the Lord".

    We have to make a life-time commitment to Christ and continue walking in the Spirit until the day we die. If we give up and go back to the world anywhere along the way, we depart from Christ and He is no longer of any benefit to us. There will be many who walked away from Christ after saying the sinner's prayer who will wake up in Hell, thinking they were saved when because of their departure back into the world, it proved that they never were. John says, "They went from us because they were never of us. If they were of us, they would never have gone from us."

    We need to continually examine ourselves daily to make sure that we are in the faith and are remaining in it.
     
  9. Dave G.

    Dave G. Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 2:8-9. The whole chapter is good, So is Ephesians 1 because there it speaks of our guarantee. 1 Peter 3 1:3-4 follows: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah!a]">[a] Because of his great mercy he has granted us a new birth, resulting in an immortal hope through the resurrection of Jesus, the Messiah,b]">[b] from the dead 4 and to an inheritance kept in heaven for you that can’t be destroyed, corrupted, or changed.
     
  10. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The short answer is in the Scripture, "He who endures to the end will be saved". The person who does not endure to the end in following Christ and showing the fruit of repentance will not be saved. We receive the promise of salvation when we repent and believe the Gospel, but the final confirmation of salvation is when the books are opened at the Judgment and our names are written there.
     
  11. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    We must not forget that there are conditions. "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord". Salvation is promised but not confirmed or given until we stand before God in the Judgment and see our names written in the Book of Life.
     
  12. Basil the Great

    Basil the Great Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is little evidence, if any, that the Early Church Fathers believed in "Once Saved, Always Saved". Hence, we might ask ourselves that if the doctrine is valid, why was it not taught and believed in the days of the Early Church?
     
  13. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    No a believer who has trusted in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Can never lose God's Eternal Life, that God has gifted to the believer.

    They could stop believing and become an atheist, muslim, new age, criminal, etc..... but they would never lose their Eternal Life.

    Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

    “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

    And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

    I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
     
  14. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Jer 32:40 is a clear promise concerning the New Covenant which was prophesied to come.

    "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me...."

    The 'Fear of God' seals our salvation if we are truely born again.

    This is one of the seven aspects of God's spirit which we receive as the gift of His indwelling presence mentioned in Isaiah 11:2
     
  15. lsume

    lsume Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The truth is that once Christ carries you through the rebirth, you can’t lose your salvation. However, if someone who is born again and starts to live a lawless life, the punishment is severe.
     
  16. rebornfree

    rebornfree Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Jesus showed us in Matthew 5 that sin isn't just an action, such as adultery or murder, but the heart attitude behind it. I doubt that any of us are going to be perfect on our deathbeds; we will probably have some attitude or thought which isn't quite right. Therefore if it is possible to lose our salvation it seems to me that we would all lose it, which is clearly not the case. But we don't go to Heaven because of what we have done, we go because of accepting what Christ has done for us. So I tend to believe once saved always saved, because the Lord sees us with Christ's righteousness not our fallenness.
     
  17. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For myself, it really comes down to this. Is God, in His omniscience, going to change His mind about someone He sends the Holy Ghost to be with? It says the comforter will abide with us forever. John 14:16. For God to change His mind once He would cease to be immutable and unchanging. We know He is unchanging. We know He will not leave nor forsake. When someone is born, how can they be unborn? In reference to being born again? He has the power to keep us and bring us through all tribulations. So will He not exercise this power when it comes to the security of His spiritual children? I believe He will. If we could lose our salvation then we probably would. If we could lose our salvation then it wouldn't be Eternal it would only be temporary. I trust that my heavenly Father will keep me. For Jesus Christ's sake, if nothing else.
     
  18. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God. Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

    Starting with the verses you gave concerning “gift”.

    Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.

    The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

    Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone stile it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

    The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

    We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.


    3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus

    Justification is a gift.

    6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    We now own eternal life in heaven, but we are not in heaven yet, so it is like a birthright to go to heaven is what we own.


    11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


    This takes some really heavy study of the context found in Ro. chps. 9, 10 and 11, but briefly:

    Paul in Ro. 11:25… Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

    28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    Paul is talking about the Israelites, that were under the promise given Abraham, but just got through saying: Ro. 11:4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

    Paul is seems to be saying that all Jews “they are enemies” (yet the elect in that they are Jews by birth), have been given the gift of being God’s select people, but in verse 5 Paul talks about only a remnant being saved?

    Paul has also been talking about some that were branches being cut off (this would mean OSAS will not work).

    This is out of Ro. 11:


    13 I am talking to you Gentiles…. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    Paul is not talking to nonbelieving Gentile, since they are not being addressed and would not be reading his letter, but this section is to gentile Christians, whom Paul warns can be “cut off” and said “…provided that you continue in his kindness”.



    Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

    Can Christians quench the Holy Spirit?

    If you through the Spirit out do you also throughout your seal of eternal life?


    And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).


    1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

    1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

    4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


    OK, if the Spirit is no longer with you, you can know you will not receive redemption at the time of Judgement?


    Third, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).


    5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    This “death” here seems to be physical death since Jesus goes on to say: 28… for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.

    People that have done good will rise to life, but this is the judgment day so there is not changing after (lose of salvation) the person is dead.


    10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

    I fully agree “no one” can take you from God and God will not forsake you, but that does not mean God will not allow you to walk away; God is not a kidnapper nor will God hold you against your own will.

    If a former Christian will not go when Jesus calls he is no longer on of Christ’s sheep.

    Do you believe God would hold a person against their will?

    If God changes the will of the person is that new will really their will or is it God’s will in them?

    The question is: can a sheep of the Shepherd intentionally go off (like the prodigal son did) and not be forced to return to the flock (like in the prodigal son story)?


    Fourth, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober from drunkenness.


    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;

    5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

    6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.

    7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.

    8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.

    9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.


    Analysis of this passage:

    v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"

    v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).

    v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).

    v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.

    v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.

    v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation

    v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.


    This is all about existing Christian, but it does not say you cannot turn to the darkness and in fact Paul warns them and tells them what the “need” to do; “we need to be sober” if it were not possible for them to get drunk Paul should have said “you are sober”.


    Fifth, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.


    The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

    “How people are saved” is not addressing the fact after you are saved you can give up your eternal life in heaven.


    Sixth, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

    Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

    Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

    Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

    As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.
     
  19. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    If we abide in Him, God will never let go of us, but we are always free to let go of Him, to stop abiding whenever we please.

    By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked (1 John 2:3–6).

    When we have an abiding trust in Jesus, we can know that we are a child of God and that He will finish what He began in your life. “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6). How do we complete the race that we began when we first accepted the Savior? “Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2).

    We can have the assurance of salvation if we keep our eyes on Christ and hold fast to His Word. We can know that we have eternal life when we continue to walk in God’s ways by faith.

    But if we believe that once we accept Jesus we can turn away from Him and still be saved, we are swallowing an artificial gospel that could leave us with great disappointment.

    One can choose to walk away from Christ .... God does not force Himself on anyone.

    One can forfeit their salvation ... one always has freedom of choice.
     
  20. Dave G.

    Dave G. Well-Known Member

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    1 John 2:19 from the Amp:
    AMP
    They went out from us [seeming at first to be Christians], but they were not really of us [because they were not truly born again and spiritually transformed]; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out [teaching false doctrine], so that it would be clearly shown that none of them are of us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2021
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