Can non-Calvinists be saved

[WarEagle]

In a recent thread, a poster named "Stumpjumper" claims that Calvinists believe that all non-Calvinists are unsaved, simply by virtue of the fact that they're not Calvinists.

Now, obviously I know that this is stupid and untrue, but, in the interests of fairness, I wanted you all to have an opportunity to speak for yourselves.

So, how about it? Is there anybody here who agrees with Stumpjumper?

 

[mlqurgw]

In a recent thread, a poster named "Stumpjumper" claims that Calvinists believe that all non-Calvinists are unsaved, simply by virtue of the fact that they're not Calvinists.

Now, obviously I know that this is stupid and untrue, but, in the interests of fairness, I wanted you all to have an opportunity to speak for yourselves.

So, how about it? Is there anybody here who agrees with Stumpjumper?

Without the actual quote in its context it is impossible to say whether I agree or not. Suffice to say that Calvinism is not salvation. I have, and still do, know many who are dead Calvinists. They have the doctrine but not the life. Still, no one who believes in a free-will salvation have yet learned who God is or who they are. God saves out of religion not in religion. He simply leaves none of His own in darkness. They don't come to Calvinism, as it is a broad umbrella that encompasses many heresies, but to truth.
When God saves a sinner He gives them the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2Cor. 4:6 He brings them out of themselves and into the knowledge of Christ.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

No one who had even a modicum of familiarity with Reformed theology would say that. It is by grace we are saved, through faith! Not through adhering to a certain theology, but by receiving and resting in the righteousness of Christ who died and rose again for our sake.

However, I do believe that if everyone who calls on the name of Christ would be consistent with their confession, they would come to be Calvinists.

The Heidelberg Catechism teaches us:

20. Are all men, then, saved by Christ as they have perished in Adam?
No, only those who by true faith are ingrafted into Him and receive all His benefits.[1]
[1] Ps 2:12; Mt 7:14; Jn 1:12-13, 3:16, 18, 36; Rom. 11:16-21; 1 Cor 15:22; Heb 4:2-3, 10:39


21. What is true faith?
True faith is not only a sure knowledge whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in His Word,[1] but also a hearty trust,[2] which the Holy Spirit[3] works in me by the Gospel,[4] that not only to others, but to me also,[5] forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness, and salvation are freely given by God,[6] merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ’s merits.[7]
[1] Jn 17:3, 17; Heb 11:1-3; Jas 1:6, 2:19; [2] Rom 4:16-21, 5:1, 10:10; Heb 4:16; [3] 2 Cor 4:13; Php 1:19, 29; [4] Acts 16:4; Rom 1:16, 10:17; 1 Cor 1:21; [5] Gal 2:20; [6] Rom. 1:17; Heb 10:10, 11:1-2; [7] Acts 10:43; Rom 3:20-26; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:7-10


22. What, then, is necessary for a Christian to believe?
All that is promised us in the Gospel,[1] which the articles of our catholic, undoubted Christian faith teach us in summary.
[1] Mt 28:19-20; Jn 20:30-31; 2 Tim 3:15; 2 Pt 1:21

The Apostles’ Creed

23. What are these articles?
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, our Lord: who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from there He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

 

[A New Dawn]

God's salvation does not depend on what theology someone holds. That would border on works-based salvation.

 

[nasa1]

In a recent thread, a poster named "Stumpjumper" claims that Calvinists believe that all non-Calvinists are unsaved, simply by virtue of the fact that they're not Calvinists.

Now, obviously I know that this is stupid and untrue, but, in the interests of fairness, I wanted you all to have an opportunity to speak for yourselves.

So, how about it? Is there anybody here who agrees with Stumpjumper?

There are alot of Calvinists who used to be non-Calvinists. Did they get saved the minute they accepted Calvin theology? Of course not.


I personally believe that there are Bhuddists, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, etc, that have been chosen for salvation and will come to the knowledge o God in their proper time. God is good, He is mighty to save and He will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves regardless of how stupid or intelligent we are. He can save people who have never read a Bible, who have never heard of Christ. He can save people even beyond the grave; there are many people who died and met Christ on the other side, and came back believers. So just have faith in a great God who is bigger than all of us and our knowledge.

NASA

 

[nasa1]

God's salvation does not depend on what theology someone holds. That would border on works-based salvation.

Exacty! Making conditions such as , "You must believe in a Trinity or in Calvinism or in the catechisms of the roman catholic church" are legalistic rules and they should not a precedent for salvation!

Who understands everything when the time of their election happens?

Some never really understand. I do not understand many things, such as the Trinity, but I do know that God is one and that the book of Isaiah calls Jesus the Everlasting Father. My Trinity view is what Watchman Nee taught. I know I am elected, and I also know I may be wrong in many of my views but I know that I am elected despite my misunderstandings - or even the things I may know, for what if I knew everything did not have love?


NASA

 

[Elderone]

I personally believe that there are Bhuddists, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, etc, that have been chosen for salvation and will come to the knowledge o God in their proper time.

I will accept Catholics and Mormons, I know two ex Mormons who have been redeemed, as both groups do hear some of the word of God.

However, where do you get your proof about Buddists and Muslims being redeemed who don't hear God's word.

If this be true

Ro 10:17 So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

how can your statement be true?

Or how can this statement be true:

He can save people who have never read a Bible, who have never heard of Christ.

I would like you to provide Book, chapter and verse which backs up this following statement of yours:

He can save people even beyond the grave; there are many people who died and met Christ on the other side,

And lastly, is the following statement talking about reincarnation?

and came back believers.

You are no more a Calvinist than the man in the moon, and since you state you followed Watchman Nee, you need to read the following short report on him. http://www.apologeticsindex.org/n01.html#author

It is a cult.

 

[nasa1]

So it was you that reported me and said this slander about me:

This person is impersonating a Calvinist and should be banned from the forum completely.

You have no right to judge me or my beliefs. You can disagree, but you have no right to say that I am not a Calvinist. Watchman Nee was one of the finest Christians this world had to offer and spent many years in prison for following Christ.

NASA

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Exacty! Making conditions such as , "You must believe in a Trinity or in Calvinism or in the catechisms of the roman catholic church" are legalistic rules and they should not a precedent for salvation!

Um, there are certain truths we are required to believe. Faith is not just a hearty trust, but a sure knowledge (you can't trust what you have no knowledge of). All of the catholic creeds, especially the Athanasian Creed, confess the Trinity.

I do not understand many things, such as the Trinity, but I do know that God is one and that the book of Isaiah calls Jesus the Everlasting Father. My Trinity view is what Watchman Nee taught.

Modalism, you mean.

I know I am elected, and I also know I may be wrong in many of my views but I know that I am elected despite my misunderstandings - or even the things I may know, for what if I knew everything did not have love?

How can you know that you are elect if you will not believe Christian orthodoxy? We are not permitted to make such presumptions.

 

[nasa1]

No, it isn't modalism. We believe that Jesus and the Father are both persons. Modalism teaches that there is only one person, God.

We believe exactly what the Bible teaches: Jesus is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

NASA

 

[A New Dawn]

No, it isn't modalism. We believe that Jesus and the Father are both persons. Modalism teaches that there is only one person, God.

We believe exactly what the Bible teaches: Jesus is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

NASA

The Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That is modalism.

The Bible teaches that there are three beings of one substance in the Godhead, not one being with three forms.

The scriptural passage of Christ being baptized illustrates all three personages being present at the same time.
[BIBLE]Matthew 3:13-17[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Mark 1:9-11[/BIBLE]
[BIBLE]Luke 3:21-22[/BIBLE]

 

[nasa1]

We do not believe the exact same thing as the Oneness Pentecostals do. It is similar, but it is not the same.
Here is what the followers of watchman Nee's teachings believe: and please note, I am not telling you this to convert you to my way of thinking. I respect that you have your own views already.





Jesus is the Father:

Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.







Jesus is the Spirit:

2nd Corinthians 3:17,18
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.



Of course we know that Jesus is also the Son of God. On that we all agree. On the baptism of Jesus, the Holy Spirit was there symbolically as a dove. God is not an animal. Also, we cannot find any scriptures where the Spirit and Jesus talk to each other, but we have many scriptures of the Father and Jesus talking to each other. Yes, we do believe that the Holy Spirit is a person, (He is Christ) but not a seperate person.
NASA

 

[heymikey80]

You have no right to judge me or my beliefs. You can disagree, but you have no right to say that I am not a Calvinist. Watchman Nee was one of the finest Christians this world had to offer and spent many years in prison for following Christ.

Actually, he does have a right to judge your belief as respecting Calvinism. We've defined Calvinism through the Three Forms of Unity, the Westminster Confession, and the London Confession.

Just keep it in mind when making a comprehensive statement like the last one in the following post:

There are alot of Calvinists who used to be non-Calvinists. Did they get saved the minute they accepted Calvin theology? Of course not.


I personally believe that there are Bhuddists, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, etc, that have been chosen for salvation and will come to the knowledge o God in their proper time. God is good, He is mighty to save and He will do for us what we cannot do for ourselves regardless of how stupid or intelligent we are. He can save people who have never read a Bible, who have never heard of Christ. He can save people even beyond the grave; there are many people who died and met Christ on the other side, and came back believers. So just have faith in a great God who is bigger than all of us and our knowledge.

I think the knot can be untied in that our faith must not be limited to less than what God wants us to believe any more than it must vault beyond what God reveals. Both are in error.

"These times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead." Ac 17:30-31

Taken strictly on its face, I think I can see the problem that led whoever reported you to report you. Your statement to "just have faith in a great God" is then a bit too limited. We should have faith in a God Who has given assurance to all of His Judgement by raising His appointed Judge from the dead.

We should expect those saved to have a similar faith at some point in their lives (John 3:16). And we should work toward whatever is lacking in them regarding this faith, because we are the external means of their hearing of faith and believing (cf Rom 10:14-17).

 

[nasa1]

But why judge me? If my statement is too limited for you, or too simple for you, then please realize that I am a new person to this and I consider myself a baby Christian. So take me for where I am at, not where you or Elderone are at. Right now, I am a child, saying, "Haave faith in a great God." I know nothing of those confessions of which you speak. I do not understand much, so please do not push me or judge me for where I am with God.

I believe God is mighty to save and I believe He will save the Buddist if He so desires, and He will do whatever He want, and He will send someone to hell if he wants, and if He decides to blow up the world, then He'll do that as well. But even if He slay me, I will still trust Him.



Salvation has nothing to do with a confession unless you are talking about the confession from Romans. God will save people despite their stupidity or intelligence. I know what I know, and you know what you know, and don't try and expect me to understand what you know unless God has brought me to that level.


I am a 36 year old perspn with a grade 10 education and I know what I know, and not more.
NASA

 

[A New Dawn]

But why judge me? If my statement is too limited for you, or too simple for you, then please realize that I am a new person to this and I consider myself a baby Christian. So take me for where I am at, not where you or Elderone are at. Right now, I am a child, saying, "Haave faith in a great God." I know nothing of those confessions of which you speak. I do not understand much, so please do not push me or judge me for where I am with God.

I believe God is mighty to save and I believe He will save the Buddist if He so desires, and He will do whatever He want, and He will send someone to hell if he wants, and if He decides to blow up the world, then He'll do that as well. But even if He slay me, I will still trust Him.



Salvation has nothing to do with a confession unless you are talking about the confession from Romans. God will save people despite their stupidity or intelligence. I know what I know, and you know what you know, and don't try and expect me to understand what you know unless God has brought me to that level.


I am a 36 year old perspn with a grade 10 education and I know what I know, and not more.
NASA

I am not sure that anyone is judging you, they are more pointing out that you claim to be a Calvinist but demonstrate that you don't really believe the points it takes to be a Calvinist.

I think it is great that you are a baby Christian and, hopefully, are coming here to learn, but there is no need to claim to be something that you don't understand. You can claim the generic Christian icon while you ask questions and explore things. If you are interested in Calvinism and the doctrines of Grace, there are a couple of resource room subforums that have a great resource list so that you are aware of what Calvinism is and how it is supported Biblically, etc.

Confessional Study Room
Reformed Resource Room

 

[Elderone]

To: nasa1

My complaint was, and still is, that you are showing the Calvinist icon, were answering questions in the Ask A Calvinist forum, and are not a Calvinist, proven by the content of your posts.

If you stop using the Calvinist icon and answering questions directed to Calvinists, I will withdraw my complaint.

If you are interested in learning more about God's word, and what Calvinists believe - which is what the Bible teaches - ask away and we will be more than willing to help.

 

[heymikey80]

But why judge me? If my statement is too limited for you, or too simple for you, then please realize that I am a new person to this and I consider myself a baby Christian. So take me for where I am at, not where you or Elderone are at. Right now, I am a child, saying, "Haave faith in a great God." I know nothing of those confessions of which you speak. I do not understand much, so please do not push me or judge me for where I am with God.

I'm pretty sure that's what I'm doing. However, if you go that far beyond Christianity to saying that there's no association between the one who has faith in the Crucified One, then that does admittedly put you far afield of two things.

Historic Christianity, in which the Jewish person was not considered saved by his faith in the One God alone.

Calvinism, in which faith in Jesus Christ is necessarily associated with each person saved, not just election. God has promised salvation to those believing in Jesus Christ. The connection between the two is different from non-predestinarian Christianity. But the connection is not omitted. In point of fact when that connection is omitted, the charge of hypercalvinism ... sticks.

I believe God is mighty to save and I believe He will save the Buddist if He so desires, and He will do whatever He want, and He will send someone to hell if he wants, and if He decides to blow up the world, then He'll do that as well. But even if He slay me, I will still trust Him.

I think so to. But I think God is true to His word. His word states the connection between faith in Christ Jesus and salvation. In theory there was the possibility God would save along different lines. But when God Himself states something much more specific, the specifics are to be trusted, not the possibilities.

Salvation has nothing to do with a confession unless you are talking about the confession from Romans. God will save people despite their stupidity or intelligence. I know what I know, and you know what you know, and don't try and expect me to understand what you know unless God has brought me to that level.

And 1 Corinthians 1. But it's plastered all over Scripture, the one who has eternal life is the one who relies on Jesus Christ.

I can understand the limitations on what you know. We were all there once. But it is also admittedly clear in Scripture. I appreciate your forbearance as well -- we can only go by what you state, and what you intend to say is not always what we end up hearing. It's just that snippets of what you're posting can conflict with the actual statements of Calvinism.

Believe me, I'm intensely aware of this situation. I've been there. I come from a deterministic background that is not Calvinistic. It was very tough trying to communicate what I'm thinking without slipping into really odd implications -- implications raised more by the history of Calvinism than by philosophy. Communication has been a mess for me in the past, too.

I found often the best way to put things was as a question. I don't know if that'll help you -- it can be an issue. It's not so much lack of knowledge as knowing where the boundaries are. And often if I haven't heard someone say it, I have to be skeptical of my conclusions even, until I can get someone to help me Reform my own thoughts. It's part of Reformed communion -- that we each share of the Spirit and work with one another, so we all grow and all grow up in the faith.

Sometimes reading through certain books can explain some of the bigger debates. One of the early primers in my education about the heritage, debates, and primary conflicts concerning Calvinism was "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination", by Loraine Boettner.

 

[Elderone]

Sometimes reading through certain books can explain some of the bigger debates. One of the early primers in my education about the heritage, debates, and primary conflicts concerning Calvinism was "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination", by Loraine Boettner.

Loraine Boettner's book is without a doubt excellent, but my suggestion for a primer would be the Westminster Shorter Catechism. 107 question and answers, with proof texts, as to what the Bible teaches. It will start the process of building a firm foundation before adding upper levels.

 

[AndOne]

Nasa1 -

Check this out - http://www.the-highway.com/dordt.html

These are the Canons of Dort - many who call themselves Calvinist disagree on a whole slew of things - Baptism, Gifts of the Spirit, Communion, etc - but we all affirm and agree on the Canons of Dort. I highly suggest you start here in your quest to understand Calvinism.

Also - I agree with my good friend Elderone and respectfully request that you drop the Calvinist Icon - at least for the time being.

 

[nasa1]

I'm sorry but I feel that God called me to this and I cannot change for you or anyone else. I am a Calvinist, from what I've learned from John Piper's website, especially his booklet about the 5 points of Calvinism.

Please don't beat the younger sheep to make them keep in step with yourself. I am going at the pace God wants me to go at, and slowly but surely I will understand more day by day. I will keep the Calvinist icon until God tells me that I misunderstood Him, and only then will I change it. I will not be scared into anything by headhunters or critics who think I'm not good enough!

Respectfully, Nasa