Can LCMS date church member?

[Susan Porter506]

Here’s the background story: Single LCMS pastor, never married, age 40. Newly divorced woman, in her 40’s, member of the church and attends church regularly. This woman’s ex is a non-attending member of the church, and he only became a member for the school tuition discount. This church has a school where this woman’s two children attend. Oh, and this pastor teaches Confirmation in which the woman’s daughter is in. Is this a no-no for the pastor to date this woman?

 

[LeGato]

I thought one of the requirements for a pastor was that he was married?

 

[Susan Porter506]

No

 

[Daniel9v9]

I thought one of the requirements for a pastor was that he was married?

No, there's no requirement to be married, but to live a chaste life which applies to both marriage and single life. If an ordained Pastor wishes to be married he is free to do so. God gives some gifts of singleness, as He granted Paul, and others the gift of a wife, as He granted most of the other Apostles. Both are good gifts.

If you're interested, you can find more on this in our Confessions — Article XXIII | The Marriage of Priests: The Augsburg Confession – Luco

Here’s the background story: Single LCMS pastor, never married, age 40. Newly divorced woman, in her 40’s, member of the church and attends church regularly. This woman’s ex is a non-attending member of the church, and he only became a member for the school tuition discount. This church has a school where this woman’s two children attend. Oh, and this pastor teaches Confirmation in which the woman’s daughter is in. Is this a no-no for the pastor to date this woman?

It's challenging to give any real advice without fully knowing the situation, and particularly in light of their children, but I'd say it depends on the circumstances of the woman's divorce.

Divorce is a difficult and painful thing, and I understand that there are many complex situations, but in brief, if there's gross abuse, violence, or sexual immorality involved, or if an unbeliever leaves a Christian, then the Christian is no longer bound by marriage. God has called us to live in peace. If a person has suffered divorce in this way, re-marriage could be fine, though I also think it could be good to consider singleness or the possibility for a reunion of the divorced if the abuser repents. Overall, I suspect it could be better for the consciences of the Pastor and the woman to not date, but again, I don't really have the full picture.

 

[Shane R]

There is probably an element of how scandalous this might be to the congregation to be considered. No doubt, some gossiper has already started a rumor if it is obvious there is interest betwixt the parties.

 

[Arcangl86]

It's a horrible idea to date a parishioner. For one thing the power differential would make consent tricky. Even if tha twasn't a factor, I don't believe it's possible to be somebody's spouse and their pastor at the same time. Those are different roles.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I thought one of the requirements for a pastor was that he was married?

Not so, we have clergy that chose to be celibate.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It's a horrible idea to date a parishioner. For one thing the power differential would make consent tricky. Even if tha twasn't a factor, I don't believe it's possible to be somebody's spouse and their pastor at the same time. Those are different roles.

If such is an impossibility, then they should not be married. I agree about dating this woman is a bad idea.

 

[Arcangl86]

If such is an impossibility, then they should not be married. I agree about dating this woman is a bad idea.

Or they can be married to somebody who is not a member of their congregation.

 

[Paidiske]

Or they can be married to somebody who is not a member of their congregation.

Not Lutheran, obviously, but wouldn't it be odd if we thought every married pastor had to have their spouse worship elsewhere?

I've done both over the course of my ministry - for a long time my husband worshipped elsewhere, this year he has become a member of my congregation - and while there are occasions where it is good for him to have someone besides me to talk to about "stuff," I can't say it's caused us major issues either way (except from some people who expected us to worship together and saw it as a problem that we didn't).

But I replied to the OP's other thread on this topic, so won't comment further on that here.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Or they can be married to somebody who is not a member of their congregation.

You are speaking from an Anglican perspective; in the LCMS, LCC and WELS we follow the gender based roles as clearly stated in scripture regarding both the office of the Holy ministry, and in marriages as outlined in the Table of Duties often included in our Catechism (and, yes, it is that cut and dried):

To Bishops, Pastors, and Preachers
The overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 1 Tim. 3:2–4

He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 1 Tim. 3:6

He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. Titus 1:9

What the Hearers Owe Their Pastors
The Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. 1 Cor. 9:14

Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor. Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Gal. 6:6–7

The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.” 1 Tim. 5:17–18

We ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other. 1 Thess. 5:12–13

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. Heb. 13:17

To Husbands
Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. 1 Peter 3:7

Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. Col. 3:19

To Wives
Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. Eph. 5:22

They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 1 Peter 3:5–6​

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Not Lutheran, obviously, but wouldn't it be odd if we thought every married pastor had to have their spouse worship elsewhere?

I've done both over the course of my ministry - for a long time my husband worshipped elsewhere, this year he has become a member of my congregation - and while there are occasions where it is good for him to have someone besides me to talk to about "stuff," I can't say it's caused us major issues either way (except from some people who expected us to worship together and saw it as a problem that we didn't).

But I replied to the OP's other thread on this topic, so won't comment further on that here.

I have also seen one instance where a Pastor was married to someone from a different Church. Let's just say that when the Bible talks about unequally yoked, it speaks with great wisdom and authority.

 

[HatGuy]

It's a horrible idea to date a parishioner. For one thing the power differential would make consent tricky. Even if tha twasn't a factor, I don't believe it's possible to be somebody's spouse and their pastor at the same time. Those are different roles.

If she becomes his spouse then he is not really his pastor anymore, but her husband. Whoever pastors him becomes her pastor, as they are now a team .

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

If she becomes his spouse then he is not really his pastor anymore, but her husband. Whoever pastors him becomes her pastor, as they are now a team .

No, such is not the case, he is her Pastor.

 

[HatGuy]

No, such is not the case, he is her Pastor.

As a pastor, this makes no sense to me . I am not my wife's pastor, but her husband. We have friends and other pastors who we reach out to for accountability etc.

Surely it can't be that in your church your pastor's wife fellowships elsewhere? I have many friends in many different denominations and in any and every pastoral marriage counseling I've ever been part of in any form, if the couple fellowship in different churches it would be seen as unhealthy.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

As a pastor, this makes no sense to me . I am not my wife's pastor, but her husband. We have friends and other pastors who we reach out to for accountability etc.

Surely it can't be that in your church your pastor's wife fellowships elsewhere? I have many friends in many different denominations and in any and every pastoral marriage counseling I've ever been part of in any form, if the couple fellowship in different churches it would be seen as unhealthy.

Are you a confessional Lutheran, or Reformed? Your posts sound Reformed. If you are not Lutheran you should likely not be debating this topic here.

 

[HatGuy]

Are you a confessional Lutheran, or Reformed? Your posts sound Reformed. If you are not Lutheran you should likely not be debating this topic here.

It's a little complicated

I suppose my "debate" is more a vigorous way of asking questions. I don't mean to offend, it's just that in all my research I can't find what you're saying to be listed anywhere. And if it's the case that this is some sort of Lutheran policy in the confessional churches, it would be great if you could show me where this is stated.

I am a pastor at a non-Lutheran church, although I am Lutheran in enough of my theology to consider myself Lutheran.

One day I want to plant a church and somehow make it a Lutheran one. The question comes down to how that relationship would work - what kind of ecclesiology needs to be adopted and how it would fit in to the larger Lutheran body.

So my hanging around in these forums is a little complicated. As a non-confessional "independent" Lutheran, I feel that I'm not breaching the rules by being here in the catch-all area of the Lutheran forums (I am not in the LCMS or WELS one, and if I do venture there I tend to ask questions), so here I imagine both ELCA and the larger LWF and all the rest are allowed to hang out.

As a non-north American from South Africa, even if I was part of a Lutheran church in name, the associations here are rather different and, quite frankly, difficult to understand to someone "looking in". For some years though I've been exploring. But ideally my wife and I want to plant in America at some stage, if possible.

I realise that the question was directed to LCMS in the topic name, but it was placed in the broader forum. So maybe I'm over-staying my welcome a little bit, but the conversation would be both interesting and important and I don't think I'm doing the wrong thing by engaging in it in the way that I am.

That's the best summary I can provide of my position without boring you with my life story.

The scriptures you posted earlier on are fine and well, and no problem with them, but none of them really state that a pastor's wife should fellowship at a different congregation. I know that some ELCA churches have co-pastoral teams of husband and wife, but I admit I don't quite know where LCMS fit in. What you said certainly took me by surprise! But in all my journeys I have not seen what you're saying stated anywhere, so if it is somewhere, I'd really appreciate a source so I can further research the topic.

Thanks!

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

It's a little complicated

I suppose my "debate" is more a vigorous way of asking questions. I don't mean to offend, it's just that in all my research I can't find what you're saying to be listed anywhere. And if it's the case that this is some sort of Lutheran policy in the confessional churches, it would be great if you could show me where this is stated.

I am a pastor at a non-Lutheran church, although I am Lutheran in enough of my theology to consider myself Lutheran.

One day I want to plant a church and somehow make it a Lutheran one. The question comes down to how that relationship would work - what kind of ecclesiology needs to be adopted and how it would fit in to the larger Lutheran body.

So my hanging around in these forums is a little complicated. As a non-confessional "independent" Lutheran, I feel that I'm not breaching the rules by being here in the catch-all area of the Lutheran forums (I am not in the LCMS or WELS one, and if I do venture there I tend to ask questions), so here I imagine both ELCA and the larger LWF and all the rest are allowed to hang out.

As a non-north American from South Africa, even if I was part of a Lutheran church in name, the associations here are rather different and, quite frankly, difficult to understand to someone "looking in". For some years though I've been exploring. But ideally my wife and I want to plant in America at some stage, if possible.

I realise that the question was directed to LCMS in the topic name, but it was placed in the broader forum. So maybe I'm over-staying my welcome a little bit, but the conversation would be both interesting and important and I don't think I'm doing the wrong thing by engaging in it in the way that I am.

That's the best summary I can provide of my position without boring you with my life story.

The scriptures you posted earlier on are fine and well, and no problem with them, but none of them really state that a pastor's wife should fellowship at a different congregation. I know that some ELCA churches have co-pastoral teams of husband and wife, but I admit I don't quite know where LCMS fit in. What you said certainly took me by surprise! But in all my journeys I have not seen what you're saying stated anywhere, so if it is somewhere, I'd really appreciate a source so I can further research the topic.

Thanks!

Sorry, so used to people being argumentative; I have been here a long time and it gets old.

Both Pastor and Wife, and their Children are members of the Congregation; being Congregational, the Overseer, Circuit Councilor, Bishop (what ever term is used) is the the Pastor's Pastor; and so on up to President/National Bishop/Arch-Bishop (regardless of terminology). The Pastor's wife and children are his parishioners, his children are baptized by him, confirmed by him, and with his wife, are communed by him. As we read through the Table of Duties in the Catechism, we see that often times we all fit into various categories; that of father, that of a child, a husband, a parishioner, and a servant. Likewise, a Pastor's wife is a wife and a parishioner, the Pastor is both Husband and Pastor to her. Biblical example would be that the High Priest of the Temple would be the High Priest and Husband of his wife at the same time.

Table of duties can be found here: Table of Duties | Book of Concord

 

[HatGuy]

Sorry, so used to people being argumentative; I have been here a long time and it gets old.

Both Pastor and Wife, and their Children are members of the Congregation; being Congregational, the Overseer, Circuit Councilor, Bishop (what ever term is used) is the the Pastor's Pastor; and so on up to President/National Bishop/Arch-Bishop (regardless of terminology). The Pastor's wife and children are his parishioners, his children are baptized by him, confirmed by him, and with his wife, are communed by him. As we read through the Table of Duties in the Catechism, we see that often times we all fit into various categories; that of father, that of a child, a husband, a parishioner, and a servant. Likewise, a Pastor's wife is a wife and a parishioner, the Pastor is both Husband and Pastor to her. Biblical example would be that the High Priest of the Temple would be the High Priest and Husband of his wife at the same time.

Table of duties can be found here: Table of Duties | Book of Concord

Ah, I see where you're getting at now. Thank you!

 

[J_B_]

In response to the OP, I would agree that the pastor dating this woman is a bad idea. However, it would also be a bad idea to try to take away some principle that stipulates exactly when and where pastors can date ... especially given this is an internet forum.

I would say pastors and dating needs to be considered on a case by case basis with that pastor's superior/confessor. It's something for the specific church to handle, not something to be handled by a league of strangers online who don't really know what's going on.

The LCMS has something called a "circuit visitor", which is an ordained minister assigned to counsel pastors within a district. That's who should handle this.