Can Jesus still visit us physically today?

[jiminpa]

The principal ministry of the Christian church is to preach the Gospel to the unconverted and to go into all the world and make disciples for Christ. That is the great commission that Jesus gave to the Apostles.

Therefore the ministries given to the church are not designed to build up any type of Christian "club" for the benefit of its members. The building up of the body of Christ is to equip it to make disciples from the unconverted. The work of the ministry is linked to the great commission, not for the self indulgence of professing Christians. And the perfecting of the saints is not making "super Christians" out of them but to make them into effective examples of true representatives of Christ.

If you can get hold of the story of "The Gospel Blimp" you will see how the modern church has shifted its emphasis to fostering its own self image, instead of conforming to the image of Christ.

I would say that you are semi-correct here. God wants more than converts. He wants disciples. Church assemblies are for the building of disciples of God so that our hearts are more God's, from that would come better equipping to reach the lost. Notice that God wants disciples of Him, not Calvin, MacArthur, The Pope, Mike Bickle (who I like), my pastor, Joyce Meyer, or any other man or woman.

 

[ARBITER01]

I would say that you are semi-correct here. God wants more than converts. He wants disciples. Church assemblies are for the building of disciples of God so that our hearts are more God's, from that would come better equipping to reach the lost. Notice that God wants disciples of Him, not Calvin, MacArthur, The Pope, Mike Bickle (who I like), my pastor, Joyce Meyer, or any other man or woman.

Absolutely correct!

That is one of the main things not being taught today in a huge cross-section of Christianity,... Discipleship.

Jesus wants more from us than just church goers, He wants us dedicated and devoted to Him and GOD's will.

 

[Joan Lamb]

Note: why am I asking this? Because of a mini-debate I'm having right now with @Oscarr (read from post #10) regarding the possibility of modern physical visitations of Jesus, in the broader context of whether apostolic callings are still possible today.

I have heard three speakers who claim the Lord Jesus visited with them. These being Benny Hinn, Jesse Duplantis and Keven Zadai. If these speakers are chosen by the Lord Jesus as apostles that would reflect on many things.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would say that you are semi-correct here. God wants more than converts. He wants disciples. Church assemblies are for the building of disciples of God so that our hearts are more God's, from that would come better equipping to reach the lost. Notice that God wants disciples of Him, not Calvin, MacArthur, The Pope, Mike Bickle (who I like), my pastor, Joyce Meyer, or any other man or woman.

When considering which Bible teacher to take on board for insights into doctrine, it is best to remember what Paul said about himself. He said, "Follow me as I follow Christ." If the intention of a Bible teacher is to point people to Christ, and I mean the Christ of the Gospels, then he will do the best he can to ensure that his doctrinal teaching is as consistent with God's Word as he can make it. No Bible teacher is perfect, because the Scripture says that we see through a glass darkly, and we know and prophesy in part. This means that no Bible teacher has the full story. Any Bible teacher who claims to have the whole truth because of some special "revelation" he has received, should be avoided, because he is pointing to himself as someone special, instead of Christ who is all in all.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Paul was. Jesus visited him on the "Damascus Road" encounter (Acts chapter 9). So we know for sure that Jesus did it at least once. Can He do it again? Has he ever done it again?

I personally know stories (personal testimonies) from people who claim to have had encounters with Jesus, including Muslims who had encounters and converted to Christianity as a consequence.

Have you heard of similar stories? Are these "Jesus encounters" stories credible?

Note: why am I asking this? Because of a mini-debate I'm having right now with @Oscarr (read from post #10) regarding the possibility of modern physical visitations of Jesus, in the broader context of whether apostolic callings are still possible today.

The only thing Paul physically saw was light that blinded Him... He then "heard a voice".

What I saw (I'm a Muslim convert who had a vision) was a vision within a dream...

Was it real? Yes. Was it physical? No.

Many Muslims over the last 10 years or so have been saved due to dreams and visions, none that I've spoke with have ever seen anything physical... It's not some man walking up to you on the street.

It's been my experience of those I've asked so far, always a man or an angel in white robes that the seer recognizes as either Jesus or an Angel.

I've only had the opportunity to ask a couple people who had an experience like mine however.

But it's not physical. If people claim a physical waking encounter I would immediately doubt that because of what Jesus Himself said in Scripture.

Like everything, every person who makes the claim has a story, and that story is either scripturally accurate or totally false.

Also, look at the person themselves for years following and ask, does this person exhibit the signs and symptoms of a saved child of God, or do their actions belie the claim.

The true encounter will change everything in a person's life, a false encounter won't.

Another thing, every personal story should be taken with a grain of salt. What's most important isn't the encounter, it's Scripture and a daily walk with God. So much so, I've pretty much stopped talking about the encounter I personally had. That is only the vessel which brought me to where I am now, which is a Christian with Scriptural knowledge.

Armed with Scripture, no encounter is needed. The testimony we need is in the pages of the Bible.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Many Muslims over the last 10 years or so have been saved due to dreams and visions, none that I've spoke with have ever seen anything physical... It's not some man walking up to you on the street.

It's been my experience of those I've asked so far, always a man or an angel in white robes that the seer recognizes as either Jesus or an Angel.

I've only had the opportunity to ask a couple people who had an experience like mine however.

But it's not physical. If people claim a physical waking encounter I would immediately doubt that because of what Jesus Himself said in Scripture.

Watch this testimony from minute 10:30.

Also watch this testimony from minute 9:00:

 

[jiminpa]

When considering which Bible teacher to take on board for insights into doctrine, it is best to remember what Paul said about himself. He said, "Follow me as I follow Christ." If the intention of a Bible teacher is to point people to Christ, and I mean the Christ of the Gospels, then he will do the best he can to ensure that his doctrinal teaching is as consistent with God's Word as he can make it. No Bible teacher is perfect, because the Scripture says that we see through a glass darkly, and we know and prophesy in part. This means that no Bible teacher has the full story. Any Bible teacher who claims to have the whole truth because of some special "revelation" he has received, should be avoided, because he is pointing to himself as someone special, instead of Christ who is all in all.

There's were you and I are at complete odds. The Bible is profitable for doctrine. Man is fallible, and often corrupt.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There's were you and I are at complete odds. The Bible is profitable for doctrine. Man is fallible, and often corrupt.

So you don't trust your pastor when he preaches on Sunday morning?

 

[ARBITER01]

So you don't trust your pastor when he preaches on Sunday morning?

That's actually a good topic for discussion.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's actually a good topic for discussion.

I think that if Paul had the attitude that the Bible alone is the only trusted medium for dispensing doctrine, then he wouldn't have told Timothy to pass the Gospel on to faithful men who will teach others. He would not have told the Corinthians to follow him as he followed Christ. He would have said, "Don't listen to me, just read the Scriptures instead." The Bereans didn't reject Paul's preaching by saying, "We are not going to listen to you, because we trust in the Scriptures instead." Luke reports that they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was preaching was consistent with them.

It is interesting that Jesus instructed the two disciples at Emmaus about Himself right through the Scriptures. He could have thrown a copy of the Scriptures at them and told them to read it for themselves. So, if Jesus felt He needed to instruct them in the Scriptures to give them sound doctrine about Himself, then He sets a good example of being a good Bible teacher for subsequent teachers and students to follow.

Someone who refuses to listen to sound doctrine from faithful godly teachers and preachers is the same as reinventing the wheel. It's like a student pilot refusing to listen to the instructor, and demanding that he get all his information directly from the flight manual. Or a university students not going to lectures or tutorials, but seeking to pass examinations by reading just the text books.

Further more, Jesus told His Apostles to go out into all the world and make disciples for Him. That means that the Apostles went out, taught the sound doctrine of the Gospel and then encouraged the converts to go and teach others. He didn't tell His Apostles to go out into all the world with printed copies of the Scriptures to hand out so the people can teach themselves through reading them.

 

[ARBITER01]

I think that if Paul had the attitude that the Bible alone is the only trusted medium for dispensing doctrine, then he wouldn't have told Timothy to pass the Gospel on to faithful men who will teach others. He would not have told the Corinthians to follow him as he followed Christ. He would have said, "Don't listen to me, just read the Scriptures instead." The Bereans didn't reject Paul's preaching by saying, "We are not going to listen to you, because we trust in the Scriptures instead." Luke reports that they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was preaching was consistent with them.

It is interesting that Jesus instructed the two disciples at Emmaus about Himself right through the Scriptures. He could have thrown a copy of the Scriptures at them and told them to read it for themselves. So, if Jesus felt He needed to instruct them in the Scriptures to give them sound doctrine about Himself, then He sets a good example of being a good Bible teacher for subsequent teachers and students to follow.

Someone who refuses to listen to sound doctrine from faithful godly teachers and preachers is the same as reinventing the wheel. It's like a student pilot refusing to listen to the instructor, and demanding that he get all his information directly from the flight manual. Or a university students not going to lectures or tutorials, but seeking to pass examinations by reading just the text books.

Further more, Jesus told His Apostles to go out into all the world and make disciples for Him. That means that the Apostles went out, taught the sound doctrine of the Gospel and then encouraged the converts to go and teach others. He didn't tell His Apostles to go out into all the world with printed copies of the Scriptures to hand out so the people can teach themselves through reading them.

It seems you're attempting to make a case for people to be 100% correct in the pulpit. Is that really what you're attempting to do Oscarr?

I would never trust anyone 100% in the pulpit unless it was Jesus Himself.

We are to sanctify Christ as Lord in our hearts, not anyone else. And that means we have to allow The Holy Spirit to have pre-eminence in our lives. We are to trust Him above people, because it is only He Who will show us all truth.

I don't know how many folks The Holy Spirit has pointed out to me as being wrong in areas at certain times. Even one of the people that I tend to promote on here, Lester Sumrall, The Holy Spirit has pointed out an area where he was wrong.

I consider having a fellowship with The Holy Spirit of absolute vital importance, especially in these times of deception, otherwise men will lead us astray.

 

[jiminpa]

So you don't trust your pastor when he preaches on Sunday morning?

How many times do I need to say this? I trust my pastor, because he respects us enough not to tell us that the Bible means something other than what it says, so he teaches application. He's not a wolf, so he doesn't spoon feed us what he wants us to think the Bible says. He and I have had a few discussions fleshing out our differing perspectives on scripture, but at the end of it I am free to trust the scriptures.

To be honest with you, I can't for the life of me understand your preference for wolves and fallible men over scripture, or your insistence that others follow suit.

 

[ARBITER01]

To be honest with you, I can't for the life of me understand your preference for wolves and fallible men over scripture, or your insistence that others follow suit.

The choice to pursue the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or the tree of life is still before us.

Christianity is not really an intellectual endeavor, but it can be made into that if people want. Our newborn life is to be in pursuit of The Holy Spirit, Jesus, and GOD The Father, not men and their opinions.

Now granted, if you are in real-time communion and fellowship with The Holy Spirit, He can point out the right and wrong in scholarly opinion pieces for you, but our entire daily focus is to be on GOD, not those men.

I desire to know The Holy Spirit's truth on matters, not man's. We should all desire that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

It seems you're attempting to make a case for people to be 100% correct in the pulpit. Is that really what you're attempting to do Oscarr?

I would never trust anyone 100% in the pulpit unless it was Jesus Himself.

We are to sanctify Christ as Lord in our hearts, not anyone else. And that means we have to allow The Holy Spirit to have pre-eminence in our lives. We are to trust Him above people, because it is only He Who will show us all truth.

I don't know how many folks The Holy Spirit has pointed out to me as being wrong in areas at certain times. Even one of the people that I tend to promote on here, Lester Sumrall, The Holy Spirit has pointed out an area where he was wrong.

I consider having a fellowship with The Holy Spirit of absolute vital importance, especially in these times of deception, otherwise men will lead us astray.

That's not what I am saying. Paul says that we have only partial knowledge, and when prophesying it is only partial and not the full story. He also says that we see through a glass darkly, much like looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

Therefore we are not expecting Bible teachers and pastors to be absolutely perfect in what they teach. I think that to be a good Bible teacher we have to be teachable and acknowledge when we go wrong in some point of doctrine. I became a Christian when I was 19 and initially thought I knew everything (the arrogance of youth). Now I am 74, and only yesterday I was reading something that changed my whole perspective on how we approach the Lord and the Christian life, and how we should approach the Lord in a way that He knows us so that we don't have the horrifying experience of facing Him at the Judgment and He telling us "I never knew you". So, even after all my years of being a Christian, there is still so much to learn.

The Scripture is the final moderator of what we take on board from any Bible teacher. A teacher may not be 100% perfect, but if what he is teaching is consistent with Scripture then we can rely on him to give sound teaching, but even then we have to search the Scriptures in order to pick the meat from the bones from even the best Bible teachers.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How many times do I need to say this? I trust my pastor, because he respects us enough not to tell us that the Bible means something other than what it says, so he teaches application. He's not a wolf, so he doesn't spoon feed us what he wants us to think the Bible says. He and I have had a few discussions fleshing out our differing perspectives on scripture, but at the end of it I am free to trust the scriptures.

To be honest with you, I can't for the life of me understand your preference for wolves and fallible men over scripture, or your insistence that others follow suit.

It is interesting that some on this thread think in extremes. One extreme is to trust any Bible teacher who comes along with some new ear-tickling doctrine that sounds attractive. The other extreme is to treat all Bible teachers with suspicion in case they are wolves. I think that I come somewhere in the middle.

The Bereans didn't treat Paul as if he was a wolf, but they did search the Scriptures daily to see if what he was preaching was true according to the Scriptures. I think that when a believer becomes mature and experienced in the Word of God, he or she is able to detect a wolf coming along preaching false doctrine. Isn't that what the book of Hebrews says? "Strong meat is for those who by use and experience can discern between good a evil."

Sure, the church went through many hundreds of years of its history where the only copies of the Bible were in Latin and only the trained clergy were educated in the language and the rank and file people had to fully trust that what the priest taught them was the truth. Some did teach the truth, but many taught nonsense and the ordinary church member didn't know the difference, because he could not study the Bible for himself. It is not surprising then that the church of the time did everything it could to suppress the printing of the Bible in the local languages.

We have to thank those who were martyred for getting the Bible printed in English so we could all read it, and Calvin who produced the first systematic theology and Bible commentaries of the Reformation. Sure, Calvin wasn't perfect. All he had were the Latin and Greek manuscripts of his time, and more reliable Greek manuscripts have since been discovered. Also, much of his commentary was to refute what was being taught in the RCC of his time. I reckon that if we didn't have Calvin, the development of Reformed Christianity may have been seriously delayed.

I was reading an article in a Methodist newsletter the other day, and it was written by a liberal, quoting Lloyd Geering, who didn't believe in the resurrection, or that God is a real person. I immediately knew the article was a load of rubbish. I didn't have to consult the Bible to know it. I told the Lord, "Well, that was a load of nonsense!" You see, when we have had years of studying Scripture and fellowshipping with the Lord, we can spot a wolf a mile away!

 

[ARBITER01]

That's not what I am saying. Paul says that we have only partial knowledge, and when prophesying it is only partial and not the full story. He also says that we see through a glass darkly, much like looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

Therefore we are not expecting Bible teachers and pastors to be absolutely perfect in what they teach. I think that to be a good Bible teacher we have to be teachable and acknowledge when we go wrong in some point of doctrine. I became a Christian when I was 19 and initially thought I knew everything (the arrogance of youth). Now I am 74, and only yesterday I was reading something that changed my whole perspective on how we approach the Lord and the Christian life, and how we should approach the Lord in a way that He knows us so that we don't have the horrifying experience of facing Him at the Judgment and He telling us "I never knew you". So, even after all my years of being a Christian, there is still so much to learn.

The Scripture is the final moderator of what we take on board from any Bible teacher. A teacher may not be 100% perfect, but if what he is teaching is consistent with Scripture then we can rely on him to give sound teaching, but even then we have to search the Scriptures in order to pick the meat from the bones from even the best Bible teachers.

Well, it gets a little confusing with a statement like this from you Oscarr,..

Someone who refuses to listen to sound doctrine from faithful godly teachers and preachers is the same as reinventing the wheel.

I think we have a difference in dependency. Of course the scriptures are absolutely important Oscarr, but they were written by The Holy Spirit, and it takes Him revealing them to us to correctly understand them. I don't trust men to do that.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well, it gets a little confusing with a statement like this from you Oscarr,..

Someone who refuses to listen to sound doctrine from faithful godly teachers and preachers is the same as reinventing the wheel.

I think we have a difference in dependency. Of course the scriptures are absolutely important Oscarr, but they were written by The Holy Spirit, and it takes Him revealing them to us to correctly understand them. I don't trust men to do that.

I fully concur that the written Scripture, being all that God has said or is going to say to mankind, is the moderator for anything that is taught in the church.

But we cannot reject man altogether, because the Holy Spirit has put the five-fold ministries in the church. The Prophet and Teacher are men called by God to exhort, edify and comfort members of the Body of Christ. The Apostle is the one who preaches the Gospel in unchurched regions and plants churches, while the Evangelist preaches the Gospel to those in churches who are as yet unsaved. The Pastor is there to shepherd the flock and ensure that members are supported and looked after. Therefore men, and women have an important role in the church.

I have learned that in the area of prophecy where prophecies are given and others judge, is that it is not the content of the prophecies that are judged, but the prophets themselves - whether they have the character of true prophets, or are revealed as false. Even a false prophet can give seemingly true prophecies, and a true prophet can make mistakes because he is a mortal man with imperfections (where is the perfect "super-Christian" who does everything totally right? I've never met one yet!).

 

[ARBITER01]

I fully concur that the written Scripture, being all that God has said or is going to say to mankind, is the moderator for anything that is taught in the church.

But we cannot reject man altogether, because the Holy Spirit has put the five-fold ministries in the church. The Prophet and Teacher are men called by God to exhort, edify and comfort members of the Body of Christ. The Apostle is the one who preaches the Gospel in unchurched regions and plants churches, while the Evangelist preaches the Gospel to those in churches who are as yet unsaved. The Pastor is there to shepherd the flock and ensure that members are supported and looked after. Therefore men, and women have an important role in the church.

I have learned that in the area of prophecy where prophecies are given and others judge, is that it is not the content of the prophecies that are judged, but the prophets themselves - whether they have the character of true prophets, or are revealed as false. Even a false prophet can give seemingly true prophecies, and a true prophet can make mistakes because he is a mortal man with imperfections (where is the perfect "super-Christian" who does everything totally right? I've never met one yet!).

You're making really good points there Oscarr, definitely something to think about.

But currently, we should have many people of the same vein as Wigglesworth and others over the years,.. but guess what, we don't. If we did I would definitely be more relaxed and trusting of their teachings and such, but no matter what, The Holy Spirit would be checking me inside on everything someone would be teaching and preaching.

He has the pre-eminence in my life.

 

[Pioneer3mm]

You're making really good points there Oscarr, definitely something to think about.

But currently, we should have many people of the same vein as Wigglesworth and others over the years,.. but guess what, we don't. If we did I would definitely be more relaxed and trusting of their teachings and such, but no matter what, The Holy Spirit would be checking me inside on everything someone would be teaching and preaching.

He has the pre-eminence in my life.

Interesting historical note..
Wigglesworth & Du Pleissis
He told David du Pleissis (Mr.Pentecost)..in 1936.
- About..the coming 'Fresh Move of God' (Charismatic Movement).
- Du Pleissis will be instrumental/used.
---
I met him..in early 1980's.

 

[Blade]

I have written about this on the thread mentioned in the OP.

I have no doubt He does appear to folk but most don't talk about it for fear of ridicule.

You know brother that is so true. I know of so many that you find out later in life or after they went home they some some awesome wonderful encounters with God yet.. never said a word. I bet even with you.. there are times I wont share because it points to me not Him. Then can turn into a experience not a true encounter with Christ.

Hes God lol and .. I can't find anywhere in the word where it goes against it. If He can show up so many places in the OT.. I found what HE does for one He will do for all