Islam Can Islam be distinguished from Arabs

dzheremi

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I may reject them. It is insensible to defend something you don't know. There's a whole ocean of hadiths. For every single one you have to see the grading, who gave it, the narrators and their reliability and according to whom, the related hadith, the context in history, related verses in the Qur'an, interpretation of the hadith, different versions of the same hadith....

As you would say, "That's your problem." All I did initially was ask what was reliable, and it seems that you are proving that in reality nothing is.

That's your problem. I'm not a fool.

Since you're making things personal ("I might reject them", "I'm not a fool"), there's probably no way I can respond to this that wouldn't get me dinged for 'flaming', so I'll just say that you are the one who is running away from their religion's reliable sources, retreating to this absolutely false belief that Arabic is some kind of magical untranslatable language, and all the while chastising Christians for believing in absurdities and for not taking their religion (of corruption, remember) seriously. You may not be a fool, but these are all foolish things to be arguing.

You're being hypocritical. In this hypothesis (what you're saying right now about him receiving revelation and not having the right to say whether it belongs in the Qur'an or not) you're recognizig him as a prophet and yet pretending he doesn't know what he's doing.

How is that hypocritical? That's how the premise works: in a world where Muhammad is a prophet, by what right does his prophethood allow him to exclude revelations from the Qur'an because he personally dislikes them? If I merely stuck to the fact that Muhammad is not a prophet to begin with, then there's really nothing to talk about because there's no way he received any revelation in the first place. As much as I personally agree with that sentiment (Muhammad is not a prophet, the Qur'an is not a revelation from God, and therefore Islam is not the true religion), I know that you don't, so I'm trying to get you to see how this entire series of events does not work in the context of Islam. Either Muhammad is more than just a prophet, or he did something he shouldn't have done.

What do you think, he was a half prophet here? Receiving revelation and not knowing what to do with it? Whatever he said regarding the Qur'an and the law was from Allah. So this also was from Allah.

Again, I personally do not think Muhammad was any fraction a prophet, but I know that you do, so that's immaterial.

Now you seem to be telling me that the standard in Islam is not "What Muhammad received from Allah", but rather "What Muhammad accepted of what he received from Allah." That is news to me. Does Allah sometimes waste everyone's time with things that won't make the cut, because Muhammad doesn't like them? Why would He do that?

We know from Sahih hadith that even Muhammad's own wife 'Aisha commented that Allah hastens to fulfill Muhammad's desires. Maybe Muhammad desired to be able to edit the revelation according to his whims, and Allah granted him that too. What a lucky guy, that Muhammad. But it does leave some serious questions about the God he supposedly served. It seems more like Islam's Allah serves him instead. Strange.
 
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Yytz6

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Given that the Quran tells us to judge by the Gospel I would dare say your opinion about the Church abandoning the Gospel is mistaken.

I would also note that the Quran promised the followers of Jesus that they would be victorious over those who disbelieved him till the day of resurrection. The only candidate that fits this verse (3:55) is the historic Church.

So what you seem to be saying, about the Church abandoning the Gospel, appears to be against not only 5:46-47 but also 3:55.

This further leads me to conclude that the Quranic author had no accurate knowledge of the Christian world. Only a surface level understanding.
I'm mot talking about 'the church', but Christians in general. And you're not taking notice of my definition of the Gospel. If you're actually trying to debate my point that is. If you're just comforting Christians then it's all okay.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I'm mot talking about 'the church', but Christians in general. And you're not taking notice of my definition of the Gospel. If you're actually trying to debate my point that is. If you're just comforting Christians then it's all okay.
The problem is your definition of the Gospel makes no sense historically when applied to Christians or if we try to apply the Quran.

I am trying to have a discussion and convey the reasons why I find the Quran insufficient.
 
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Yytz6

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It does not have a continuity with previous revelation.
A relative term.
It distorts the stories it quotes
It doesn't 'quote' anything and maybe the Bible is just wrong.
So Aisha was not 6 when she married and 9 when she consummated her marriage with Muhammad.
Seems unlikely, doesn't it?
The murder of Ka`b bin al-Ashraf would be an example in Medina or bumping off his enemies
Ka`b bin al-Ashraf

War?
The slaughter and enslavement of the Banu Qurayza apparently celebrated in the Quran would be another example (Sura 33:25-27)
Punished by their own holy book. Just like they wanted.
1) "Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted - Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs: Surely (Allah) is able to bring him back (to life)!" Qur'an 86:5-8:

But sperm does not come from between the backbone and the ribs.
Who said sperm? Do you think that comes from the testicles? It's a common belief.
2) Flat Earth: "And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)," Sura 71:19
A carpet actually takes the shape of the thing it's put upon.
3) Solid Sky: See they not what is before them and behind them, of the sky and the earth? If We wished, We could cause the earth to swallow them up, or cause a piece of the sky to fall upon them. Verily in this is a Sign for every devotee that turns to Allah (in repentance). Sura 34:6-12 Sky must be solid if pieces of it can fall like that.
It literally says 'from' the sky.
4) View that Alexander the Great was a righteous man - in fact he was a licentious idolator
He's not mentioned but good to know your opinion on him.
 
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Yytz6

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The problem is your definition of the Gospel makes no sense historically when applied to Christians or if we try to apply the Quran.

I am trying to have a discussion and convey the reasons why I find the Quran insufficient.
Okay.
I disagree.
 
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Limo

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Islam started in Arabia, Muhammad was an Arab, his early companions were Arabs. The Qur'an itself is written in and read in Arabic.

So from its earliest days Arabs have been dominant in Islam. Today Hajj is to an Arabic country and Muslims bow to Mecca in Saudi Arabia. Saudia Arabia spends billions promoting its view of Islam.

Given such strong Arabian roots Arabs have often insisted they know best in matters Muslim. Obviously Turks, Iranians and many others do not always see eye to eye with their Arab cousins in the faith. This is a root of many conflicts, historical and modern.

To what extent do non Arabian Muslims think Arabian dominance and authoritarianism is a problem?

Is the problem too deeply rooted in Islam's core texts and indeed in the life of Muhammad to be resolved?

Can true Islam exist without Arabs?
It's said that "whoever has a glass house shouldn't stone others"
From fist day of Islam. There were great non-arabic companion. Belal the African who was assigned to call for prayer although his pronouncinion of Arabic was not perfect. Sohib the Roman was there also. Salman the Persian was there as well.
Tell me about the disciples who were all Jews even Jesus said I'm for the lost Israeli sheep only.

You should read the history of Islam as well. Turks lead the Islam for more than 6 centuries.
If you just give some time for reading, you'll find 3 out of the best Ahadeeth (narrations from Prophet Muhammed ) were non Arabs albukhary, Muslim, and eltermezy. Many others schoolers were non Arabs.
From first days of Islam Allah in Quran and Prophet in Hadeeth, warned Muslim to treat people based on race or color.

Your assumptions are totally wrong.
 
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dzheremi

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If you just give some time for reading, you'll find 3 out of the best Ahadeeth (narrations from Prophet Muhammed ) were non Arabs albukhary, Muslim, and eltermezy.

And why were they called (Muhammad) Al Bukhari, Al Tirmizi, and so on? Because Islam is an Arabizing religion, and these are the Arab naming conventions! You think that the native Persian and Uzbek languages of these people are full of Arabic definite articles and ways of making 'nisba'? No. That came in with Arabic influence, which itself came with Islam. Because, again, Islam is an Arabizing religion. Why do you think they called the Christians in Muslim-occupied Spain who had adopted some of the Arabic cultural norms (e.g., writing in the Arabic alphabet) Mozarabs? Because it's from musta'arab, meaning 'to be Arabized'. That's what Islam does to people, even if you don't convert to it. That's how many own Church ended up speaking Arabic by the 13th century (under HH Pope Gabriel II, when it was added officially to the readings).

I don't know why any Muslim would deny this. I bet your own name, whatever it is, has some Arabic element in it, unless you are a convert or your parents/family are very unusual. It is no different than in Christianity, where names of Greek origin entered other languages, and subsequently everywhere had a St. Gregory. And sometimes the opposite happened, like how the Egyptian Christians gave the Russians Pafnouti, which is a purely Coptic name. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it's just weird that in a religious context it is so heavy in Islam specifically, because of the weird Muslim superstition about having to keep your scriptures in Arabic, since that's how your god supposedly delivered them to Muhammad. Christianity does not have this same worry about the Bible or the faith more generally being translated into other languages, hence for every Tewodoros or Gregorios in Ethiopia there is a Tekle Haymanot or Fikre Selassie. You don't have to be Greek or learn Greek or even particularly care about Greek, since the translation of the scriptures has been encouraged and is completed for many people, and these translations are not considered to be lesser than the supposed Greek originals (sometimes the original is in Aramaic or Hebrew).

From first days of Islam Allah in Quran and Prophet in Hadeeth, warned Muslim to treat people based on race or color.

Was that before or after your prophet compared Ethiopians' heads to raisins in Sahih hadith? Yes, so respectful he was, this 'prophet of Allah'. Let's all praise him forever. :sick:

Islam is chock full of racism. The Muslims built the African slave trade up for centuries before any European colonialist had traveled to Africa, and your prophet obviously valued black people less than non-blacks, as you can see from his unequal trade of black slaves (which he owned) for non-blacks, again in Sahih hadith.

And if you dig into the Muslim historians, you will see even worse things about black people (e.g., not just admitting that they were/are slaves, but saying things about their temperament that suggests they are fit to be/deserve to be), but this is enough since it is documented in these sources which Sunni Muslims take as reliable.
 
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Yytz6

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And why were they called (Muhammad) Al Bukhari, Al Tirmizi, and so on? Because Islam is an Arabizing religion, and these are the Arab naming conventions! You think that the native Persian and Uzbek languages of these people are full of Arabic definite articles and ways of making 'nisba'? No. That came in with Arabic influence, which itself came with Islam. Because, again, Islam is an Arabizing religion. Why do you think they called the Christians in Muslim-occupied Spain who had adopted some of the Arabic cultural norms (e.g., writing in the Arabic alphabet) Mozarabs? Because it's from musta'arab, meaning 'to be Arabized'. That's what Islam does to people, even if you don't convert to it. That's how many own Church ended up speaking Arabic by the 13th century (under HH Pope Gabriel II, when it was added officially to the readings).
The point you're making here doesn't have anything to do with your op or the topic and the same phenomenon happens to both directions.
 
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dzheremi

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The point you're making here doesn't have anything to do with your op or the topic and the same phenomenon happens to both directions.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the same phenomenon happens in both directions", and of course the Arabization of people has to do with the close connection of Islam and Arabism (since Arabization basically only happens with the coming of Islam into a society; it's not Buddhists or Hindus or Christians who conquered Persia and introduced Arab-Muslim names and Arabic script into that society, for instance), which is what the topic of the thread is.
 
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Limo

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And why were they called (Muhammad) Al Bukhari, Al Tirmizi, and so on? Because Islam is an Arabizing religion, and these are the Arab naming conventions! You think that the native Persian and Uzbek languages of these people are full of Arabic definite articles and ways of making 'nisba'? No. That came in with Arabic influence, which itself came with Islam. Because, again, Islam is an Arabizing religion. Why do you think they called the Christians in Muslim-occupied Spain who had adopted some of the Arabic cultural norms (e.g., writing in the Arabic alphabet) Mozarabs? Because it's from musta'arab, meaning 'to be Arabized'. That's what Islam does to people, even if you don't convert to it. That's how many own Church ended up speaking Arabic by the 13th century (under HH Pope Gabriel II, when it was added officially to the readings).

I don't know why any Muslim would deny this. I bet your own name, whatever it is, has some Arabic element in it, unless you are a convert or your parents/family are very unusual. It is no different than in Christianity, where names of Greek origin entered other languages, and subsequently everywhere had a St. Gregory. And sometimes the opposite happened, like how the Egyptian Christians gave the Russians Pafnouti, which is a purely Coptic name. It's nothing to be ashamed of, it's just weird that in a religious context it is so heavy in Islam specifically, because of the weird Muslim superstition about having to keep your scriptures in Arabic, since that's how your god supposedly delivered them to Muhammad. Christianity does not have this same worry about the Bible or the faith more generally being translated into other languages, hence for every Tewodoros or Gregorios in Ethiopia there is a Tekle Haymanot or Fikre Selassie. You don't have to be Greek or learn Greek or even particularly care about Greek, since the translation of the scriptures has been encouraged and is completed for many people, and these translations are not considered to be lesser than the supposed Greek originals (sometimes the original is in Aramaic or Hebrew).



Was that before or after your prophet compared Ethiopians' heads to raisins in Sahih hadith? Yes, so respectful he was, this 'prophet of Allah'. Let's all praise him forever. :sick:

Islam is chock full of racism. The Muslims built the African slave trade up for centuries before any European colonialist had traveled to Africa, and your prophet obviously valued black people less than non-blacks, as you can see from his unequal trade of black slaves (which he owned) for non-blacks, again in Sahih hadith.

And if you dig into the Muslim historians, you will see even worse things about black people (e.g., not just admitting that they were/are slaves, but saying things about their temperament that suggests they are fit to be/deserve to be), but this is enough since it is documented in these sources which Sunni Muslims take as reliable.
Do you know something?
You know a few about Islam.
Stereotyping zzzzzz
Islam is the most tolerent with local culture among relegiobs and civilization.

You're saying Prophet talked negatively about Ethiopian, big proof that you're selecting texts out of context.
The first refuge for Muslims to escape from torment and killing was to Ethiopian Kingdom. Prophet praised and trusted his fairness and justice.
The first Muslims were mostly slaves.
Usama bin Zaid who was a son of Prophet's slave lead an army has the most ownered Arabs.
You know nothing about Islam
Compare how Muslims states dealt with culture and language with Christians states and non Christians.

Muslim ruled all Eastern Europe around 4-5 centuries but till date people keep using their language and same Christianitys relegions
Turks themselves kept their language and culture, can't you see?
Muslims ruled India about 6-7 centuries (don't remember)

Islam spread in Africa ND South Asia but people kept their languages and relegions.
This is Islam and Muslims Footprint, what about yours ?

Do you know ? Or pertaining ignorance?

50 millions red Indians have been vanished.
Language and culture of north and south America were wiped, including history and personality.
All african languages have been disappeared.
Nevertheless, still you inforcing your own culture and (non)values all over the world.
What have Pauline Christianitys offered to world?

Your house is made of glass.

Before I forgot, you said something about Egyptian Christians and they can't use non-arabic names, you know nothing about the Arab countries Sir.
Egyptian Christians till date name their children not only Saints names but Pharos as well. You can find names of desiples names in Egypt more than any other place in world. Ramses and Mina (Pharos Kings) are the most used names in Egypt.
On other handy, in liberals and free countries as you like to call west, if your name has something Arabic it's a strong reason to be suspect from security, not renting a house, not hired

Your house is from glass, don't stone others
 
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Yytz6

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I'm not sure what you mean by "the same phenomenon happens in both directions", and of course the Arabization of people has to do with the close connection of Islam and Arabism (since Arabization basically only happens with the coming of Islam into a society; it's not Buddhists or Hindus or Christians who conquered Persia and introduced Arab-Muslim names and Arabic script into that society, for instance), which is what the topic of the thread is.
I mean a culture and a language influencing other cultures and languages. When Muslims go to other countries, they absorb the culture and learn the language - is that a bad thing? Or is it a bad thing only if the culture absorbed is 'Arab'?
 
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dzheremi

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Do you know something?
You know a few about Islam.
Stereotyping zzzzzz
Islam is the most tolerent with local culture among relegiobs and civilization.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Oh, wait sorry, I mean هههههههههههههههههههههههههه

You're saying Prophet talked negatively about Ethiopian, big proof that you're selecting texts out of context.

Yeah, because there's definitely a context where calling Ethiopians 'raisin heads' is not a negative and racist thing to say. :rolleyes:

The first refuge for Muslims to escape from torment and killing was to Ethiopian Kingdom. Prophet praised and trusted his fairness and justice.

This is not news to me. Then the Arab Muslims spent the rest of time making up fantasies about 'Najashi', as they called him, converting to Islam. I told my Ethiopian friend Helen about that once, and she laughed for a solid 2 minutes. Christian Ethiopians rightly laugh at you. The conversation went something like this: "They know that's not how it works, right? If the King had converted to Islam, then the Kingdom would have converted with him, just like when King 'Ezana converted to Christianity centuries before." "No, I don't think they know that." "Well that's ridiculous." "Yeah, that's Islam for you." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The first Muslims were mostly slaves.

That doesn't really help, in this context.

Usama bin Zaid who was a son of Prophet's slave lead an army has the most ownered Arabs.

I'm not sure what this means. Do you mean honored? What does it matter if Muslims honor the son of one of Muhammad's slaves? Christians honor saints like St. Mary of Egypt (a former prostitute) and St. Moses the Ethiopian (a former robber and murderer), and that doesn't say anything about our religion's stance on prostitution, robbery, and murder. (We're against them all.)

You know nothing about Islam

I know enough to reject it, and that's all that really matters.

Compare how Muslims states dealt with culture and language with Christians states and non Christians.

It's actually not such a flattering comparison. The Muslims used Christian (and some Persian Zoroastrian) translators like Hunayn ibn Ishaq and others to build their "golden age", since the much-praised 'translation movement' of Baghdad in Abbasid times is what preserved the supposedly otherwise lost Greek sciences (lost to Europe, I guess) for the Arabs to the expand upon later. Christians were also used as physicians in the courts of the Muslim rulers, as they had been long before Islam was made up, and authored medical texts that were used for centuries by those of all communities.

By comparison, Christians preserved the preexisting knowledge of the people not by using the other communities to do the work for them so that they didn't have to learn anything themselves, but by actually modelling their own methods on what had come before them, but 'Christianizing' it, e.g., by building the Catechetical School of Alexandria in the time of St. Mark and modeling it on the ancient Greek Mouseion found in that same city, which, though it had been destroyed and/or suppressed several times before and after the coming of Christianity to Egypt (by Julius Caesar, Caracalla, and Aurelian), apparently didn't disappear until the fifth century AD, if sources like Zacharias Rhetor and Aeneas of Gaza are to be believed. The Catechetical school essentially operated like a Christian version of the Mouseion, teaching both theology and secular sciences.

So too the art and material culture of the native Egyptians was preserved in traditional Coptic iconography, and probably (there's some debate on this, academically) the chant of the pre-Christian Egyptians as well, in Coptic religious chant.

This is a crucial difference between Christianity and Islam: Christianity takes what is acceptable to God of the native cultures and baptizes it, which makes it so the people do not have to 'become Greek' (or Syriac, or Coptic, or Roman, or whatever) to become Christian, while Islam does not do that as much (still some; obviously Pakistani Qawwali reflects that culture, just as Jilala reflects Moroccan culture, or Falak reflects the Central Asian peoples' cultures), due to its overarching reliance on Arabic for everything, itself due to religious beliefs about Arabic language and the Qur'an. You cannot offer your ritual prayers in your own language, can you? Everything has to be Arabic. Apparently your god is an Arab and only wants to hear from you while in the mosque in his language.

Muslim ruled all Eastern Europe around 4-5 centuries but till date people keep using their language and same Christianitys relegions

Some of them, yes. The Bosniaks, Muslim Albanians, and to some extent even the Greeks (names like Hadjiakis, etc.) are evidence of the long years under the Turkocratia. Thank God that He brought it to an end, and may He continue to preserve the Christian people of those areas.

Turks themselves kept their language and culture, can't you see?

Yes, of course. When did I ever say that nobody kept their language under Islam? :confused: This is responding to something I never said, and never would say.

Muslims ruled India about 6-7 centuries (don't remember)
Islam spread in Africa ND South Asia but people kept their languages and relegions.

Kept their languages, yes, but as far as keeping their religions...ehhh, it is a 'mixed bag'. The people of Nuristan (formerly Kafiristan) in Afghanistan were forcibly converted to Islam only about 100 years ago, as many others have been all over the forced-to-be-Muslim world. Did the same thing happen in the Christian world? Sure it did. Usually you can tell who was forced relatively recently because they have syncretized their Christianity with their indigenous beliefs, as in parts of Africa and South America that were colonized by European (usually Roman Catholic) powers only in the past 500 years or so. I don't deny that this happened. Heck, I'm kind of a product of it happening. My grandmother was a mestiza (mixed native and European person) from Mexico, and many countries of Latin America have large mixed populations. So you don't need to tell me about this.

This is Islam and Muslims Footprint, what about yours ?

What about 'mine'? The point is never 'only Muslims have done anything bad', but rather the underpinnings of what is done. You cannot seriously compare the coming of St. Mark to Egypt, for instance, by which the majority of Egyptians were eventually converted to Christianity by the fourth century (but still the temples were kept open until later in the 6th century, when the temple at Philae was finally closed; and even after the order of the Emperor to close the temples in the 380s, laws were passed to criminalize any actions taken against pagans in their homes or at their shrines) to the coming of Muhammad's warriors in the 7th century to rape, pillage, and completely transform the societies which they invaded. For one thing, the Egyptian Church is made of native people, and you can't 'conquer' yourself. It would be akin to saying Muhammad's original followers, who came to Islam before he had any military or political power, were somehow 'forced'. No. Obviously not. The same was true for Christianity for approximately 313 years (this is when the last of the open persecutions done by the Roman empire, under the emperor Maximinus Daia who succeeded the hated oppressor Diocletian, finally ended in Egypt), as opposed to being true for Islam...what...19 years? If I remember correctly, Muhammad received his first communication from "Jibril" in the cave around 610, and by 629 had conquered Mecca. I believe this huge disparity in the relative time that each religion spent oppressed in its place(s) of origin in large part explains why your religion is as it is, and why mine is as it is. Perhaps if Christianity had conquered by force large swaths of the world within 20-30 years of its founding, it would have an outlook more like Islam when it comes to matters of conquest, the supposed place it should have in societies, and so on.

Do you know ? Or pertaining ignorance?

Well, it depends on what aspect you are asking about. About languages and their histories and the cultures they were formed by, I'd like to think I know something since I have a master's degree in linguistics, but you're right if you want to talk about specifics of Islamic or Christian conquests.

50 millions red Indians have been vanished.

Do you assume this to be by Christian religious imperative? Again, there is a vast difference between coming somewhere as an outsider and conquering it and forcibly converting the people there to your religion (as the Spanish did in the Americas, for instance) and being yourselves the native people of the place in which the religion is established, as in the Coptic, Syriac (Aramean/Assyrian), Armenian, and Ethiopian cases. (This is my Church -- this communion of individual churches -- so it's the only one I can really confidently talk about.)

Language and culture of north and south America were wiped, including history and personality.

This, like the Islamic case, is definitely a 'mixed bag'. Some indigenous languages have been lost, yes (not usually during the conquistador times, but later as the people themselves switched to the national or local/regional language, often for economic reasons), but many of them have not been. The situation in America and Canada is very bad compared to that of Latin America, I'll grant you that, but still it is very much overreaching to write as though they were all wiped out. The healthiest Native language of the USA is definitely Navajo, which has over 200,000 native speakers in the Southwest of the USA, and having lived in Albuquerque, New Mexico for four years while I was getting my masters degree (NM is, together with Arizona, a stronghold of the Navajo and several other indigenous people) I can tell you that you can hear it everyday on the streets, in stores, and even on TV where they have their own soap operas (dramas) and news programs.

In Latin America, indigenous languages often have official status either regionally or sometimes nationally. In Paraguay, which is quite anomalous in this regard, more people actually speak the Guarani indigenous language than Spanish (though almost everyone is bilingual in Spanish; I think it's something like 95% speak Guarani vs. 90% Spanish; I would have to look it up), even though the ethnic Guarani themselves are a very small population. Even in states where that is not the case, like Mexico where only a small population speaks a native language, still over one million people speak Nahuatl. In Guatemala 42% of the population speak an indigenous language (forms of Mayan, I'm assuming), in Peru 35%, and in Ecuador and Panama almost 10% (9.4% and 8.3%, respectively). I didn't do the math, but knowing the population sizes of these countries alone, that is millions of people. And then you have a case like Bolivia, where 35 native languages are recognized by the government, even though only a few of them have a large percentage of speakers (Quechua 21.2%, Aymara 14.6%).

So again, I recognize that it is not ideal, but the situation should not be painted as though they are all gone. It is much better than in the Middle East, anyway. How many Syriac-identifying people are there, the descendants of the native Mesopotamians? From Assyrian historian Fred Aprim in the introduction to his book Assyrians: The Continuous Saga (2004), maybe 4 million total. How many actually speak a form of their language? Not four million. Not even close. The largest, "Assyrian Neo-Aramaic" (Eastern Neo-Aramaic dialect) has about 500,000 speakers, and the next largest, "Chaldean Neo-Aramaic" (essentially the same thing; divided for political/church reasons) has about 240,000. The speakers of "Western" Neo-Aramaic (Turoyo/Surayt) are about 100,000, and the speakers of all other varieties (Jewish, Mandaic, etc.) are a few thousand. There are less than a million total of all varieties, and they are mostly in diasporas in Sweden, Germany, the USA, etc.

All african languages have been disappeared.

What? I don't even know what that means, but if you mean it literally that's a crazy claim. If all African languages have disappeared under Christianity, then why can I read and type in Amharic አሁን? And that's just one language of one people who have been officially Christian since the fourth century, many centuries before any European or for that matter Arab colonialist came to Africa. እብድ አትሁን።
 
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dzheremi

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Nevertheless, still you inforcing your own culture and (non)values all over the world.

How? Do I go to people's houses and force them to pray the Agpeya, no matter what religion they are? You are making hysterical claims by now. If I even had the power or the inclination to force my values on the world, it would certainly look a lot different than it does now. But that is not our way. I'm not a Spanish conquistador just like you are not a Rashidun soldier.

What have Pauline Christianitys offered to world?

Hahaha. "Pauline". Do you accept being called "Muhammadan"? How silly. Anyway, what has Christianity offered the world? I mean, it's hard to say, because you'd have to break it up into different spheres, since Christianity has had such a large role in shaping the world and world events, both good and bad. On the good side (and things which can definitely be traced to Christianity itself), I would say the development of the modern university (which developed from Cathedral Schools for clergy in the high middle ages in Europe), the sciences (e.g., Gregor Mendel, the father of genetics, was a monk; the monks in Egypt developed a system for blind people to 'read', approximately a millennium before the invention of Braille; etc.), the printing press; the idea of inalienable human rights (rights that you have by virtue of being a person, not of being of a certain class or a certain religion; while the pagan Greeks and Indians developed 'democracy' as a political concept, the Greeks especially were still arguing what it is to be a person, as in the famous debates between Plato and the cynic philosopher Diogenes in the 300s BC; Christianity cleared that up in a way that was unique to it, though obviously related to earlier concepts inherited from both Judaism and secular philosophies, as you can see in St. John's writing on the Logos, for instance), etc., etc. There are literally thousands of things I could list, but frankly it's my birthday and I'm preparing to leave for lunch, so this will have to do for now.

Your house is made of glass.

No it isn't. You are making several assertions that are directly countered by the available evidence (not just historical evidence, but also current evidence), such as your statements on African and Native American languages.

Before I forgot, you said something about Egyptian Christians and they can't use non-arabic names, you know nothing about the Arab countries Sir.

What? Prove it by quoting it here. I never said such a thing. You probably misunderstood something I did say, or are confusing me with someone else. My own parish had not one but TWO Georges! Not Gerges or Girgis, but George! Our priest's names were Marcus (not Marqos, Morqos, etc.) and Philemon, for Pete's sake! And these were all Egyptians (well, one of the Georges was technically Sudanese, but the same applies). I would never say something so ridiculous as you have claimed here.

Egyptian Christians till date name their children not only Saints names but Pharos as well. You can find names of desiples names in Egypt more than any other place in world. Ramses and Mina (Pharos Kings) are the most used names in Egypt.

You really don't need to tell me about my own Church, thank you. You look very foolish attempting to 'educate' me right now on things I already know much better than you do. Which one of us is Coptic Orthodox, after all? I think it's me, not you. If you are Coptic, leave the religion of the invading barbarians and come back to Christ.

On other handy, in liberals and free countries as you like to call west, if your name has something Arabic it's a strong reason to be suspect from security, not renting a house, not hired

Yeah, I just posted about this yesterday in another thread. I know this too well. One of the deacons from my church who lived only a few minutes from me (one of the Georges, actually) had to move to a new apartment in a different part of the city because he had a neighbor who had mental problems and would constantly tell him that she knew he was a terrorist, and she was going to call the FBI on him for being a member of Al Qaeda and all this crazy stuff. I was there once (waiting to be picked up to go to liturgy) when she did this, so I heard it myself. In reality, George was a computer science graduate student at the local university, and a deacon in the Church, and never had any connection with anything. He just spoke with a heavy Egyptian accent when he spoke English, and had an Arabic last name. That's it. If she had actually bothered to meet him in a calm way and maybe get invited into his apartment, she would see that it had icons of Jesus and the saints and crosses decorating the walls, as is common in Coptic (and Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox, etc.) homes.

When he moved to the other apartment, it turned out to be on the same block where only a few weeks later some insane person almost beat to death an Iraqi refugee woman for speaking Arabic (which I guess in his crazy brain meant she was a terrorist), when actually she was a Chaldean Catholic and was speaking Chaldean Neo-Aramaic, not Arabic. It is a huge problem, and it is not helped by the fact that the media and the society in general do not seem to know that most of the people from the Middle East or descended from there in the USA are Christians, not Muslims. In a way this would not make it any better, because it is not any better to beat up or kill a Muslim than it is to do the same to a Christian (I don't think anyone should be beaten up or killed for where they are from, how they speak, or their religion; all of this is insane), but I feel like a lot of people associate the Middle East and Arabic (or things that sound like Arabic to you if you don't know any better) with Islam and terrorism only, as though everyone who speaks Arabic is a Muslim and every Muslim is a terrorist (both of which are obviously very wrong and ignorant beliefs), and so people react with violence out of fear instead of educating themselves about the demographic reality of the country they are living in. This is why I make a point of using Arabic both here on CF and in my everyday life, even though I don't speak or write it well because it's my fourth and newest language, and I didn't have very much training in it (only 1 year in college, and then the rest has just been from being around Egyptians, Sudanese, Iraqis, Libyans, etc). Islam may strongly associate the Arabic language with itself, but of course Arabic existed before Islam, and there is nothing wrong at all with praying in Arabic or speaking Arabic or anything, as millions of Christians do. In addition to greeting each other in Greek (and sometimes in Coptic, if the priest happens to know the Paschal greeting in Coptic), for the fifty days following Pascha we say المسيح قام, to which the proper response is حقا قام or بالحقيقة قام. We are not ashamed of it (though I know lots of Copts don't like Arabic, because of its history of being forced on them in Egypt), nor should we be. It's a perfectly fine language to praise God in, we just don't associate it naturally with anything holy, since there is not this belief that God revealed anything to anyone which could only be understood in that language like in Islam.

So I am aware of this already, and have already written and spoken out about it ad nauseam.

Your house is from glass, don't stone others

And if I can give you a piece of advance in return, don't presume that you know where your interlocutor is coming from, or has made arguments that they have not made. Your reply is largely full of irrelevant tangents and accusations against me that are false, and while I don't appreciate it, I hope that this reply to you will set things straight with regard to where I stand on the matters that you have brought up, as irrelevant as they are.
 
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dzheremi

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I mean a culture and a language influencing other cultures and languages. When Muslims go to other countries, they absorb the culture and learn the language - is that a bad thing? Or is it a bad thing only if the culture absorbed is 'Arab'?

When did I say it was good or bad or anything like that? I simply said it was a thing. It's what happened.

I don't think that there's anything wrong in absorbing the culture that is around you. I think it is wrong when people come from outside and force their culture, language, and religion on others, as the French did to the Algerians, Moroccans, and Tunisians during the colonial times, or as the Arabs have done to the native Imazighen and Coptic people of North Africa since the arrival of Islam in North Africa. Particularly the Imazighen have suffered in recent times as a result of their resistance to the Arabizing regimes that have run their countries, as in Algeria with its 'Berber Spring' in 1980. Here is a song in his native language by the martyr Matoub Lounes (killed by an Islamic terrorist group in Algeria, the GIA, in 1998 for his satirical songs against Islam and his advocacy of secularism) that is about that time period:


It's quite strange, right? To be killed for essentially wanting to speak your own language, have your own culture in your own country, and to not follow Islam and Muhammad because you recognize it as being foreign and imposed on your people. And in 1998 -- not in the Middle Ages in Europe or something, when a defense could be "But Christians are doing it too!" (Even though that's not a very good defense, it would at least be true then.)

If Islam were really as tolerant as its practitioners are constantly telling us it is, (1) they wouldn't need to constantly say that, and (2) things like the murder of Matoub Lounes (and the murder of Farag Foda in Egypt, and the murder of Nahed Hattar in Jordan, and many other similar murders or attempted murders in modern times) wouldn't happen. That's why (1) would be true. But it isn't. Because Islam is not actually tolerant of anything that isn't itself. Islamic 'tolerance' is being at best a second class citizen in your own country, with laws in place that make Islam inviolable, and hence religiously justify these murderous acts.

Your prophet Muhammad had poets and singers and such that made fun of him killed 1400 years ago. Nahed Hattar was assassinated 3 years ago. Because of Islam, it might as well be as though the intervening 1400 years between these two events never happened.
 
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Yytz6

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When did I say it was good or bad or anything like that? I simply said it was a thing. It's what happened.
Then will you stop writing long paragraphs about things that happen to be according to you?

The main thing is you have your own history. It isn't real history nor is it generally accepted to be real. It's only your opinion based on limited information and on limited use of intelligence.
 
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dzheremi

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Yeah, you're right...I'm arguing from myself only, not from 14 centuries of the experience of the Coptic people I voluntarily learn from. Whatever you say, Yytz6. :rolleyes: You'd clearly know better, being a Coptic person yoursel...oh. Right. Nevermind.
 
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Yytz6

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Yeah, you're right...I'm arguing from myself only, not from 14 centuries of the experience of the Coptic people I voluntarily learn from. Whatever you say, Yytz6. :rolleyes: You'd clearly know better, being a Coptic person yoursel...oh. Right. Nevermind.
Thats no proof whatsoever that you're right. Everyone has their own history. All religious sects do. They all think they're right. They can't all be right. And you don't have those 14 centuries of experience.
 
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dzheremi

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I'm not saying it's proof that I'm right. I'm saying that you are writing "according to you" as though I am arguing from myself when I'm not. I didn't write the History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria, the Chronicle of Zuqnin, A Response to the Arabs, or any other thing that tells me (all of us, really, but Muslims of course stick to their historians) how my Church reacted to the cruelty and barbarity of the Muslims. And of course you do not have to read or believe any of them, but simply waving them away as though you know so much better or so much more because "everyone has their history" isn't really a response. If you are going to say that, then obviously a fair response is that there is absolutely no reason to believe any Muslim or Islamophilic source about anything ever, so you are not in any better a position than I am, and there's no reason to continue this conversation.
 
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Yytz6

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I'm not saying it's proof that I'm right. I'm saying that you are writing "according to you" as though I am arguing from myself when I'm not. I didn't write the History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria, the Chronicle of Zuqnin, A Response to the Arabs, or any other thing that tells me (all of us, really, but Muslims of course stick to their historians) how my Church reacted to the cruelty and barbarity of the Muslims. And of course you do not have to read or believe any of them, but simply waving them away as though you know so much better or so much more because "everyone has their history" isn't really a response. If you are going to say that, then obviously a fair response is that there is absolutely no reason to believe any Muslim or Islamophilic source about anything ever, so you are not in any better a position than I am, and there's no reason to continue this conversation.
Indeed. I rarely write about history. You like to bring your historical povs into all discussions. But you never say this is what these people think because... You just say fact a and b and c happened. The end. It's all black and white for you.
 
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