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Featured Islam Can Islam be distinguished from Arab I

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by mindlight, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What sect are you from?

    What school do you follow?
     
  2. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    In what sect or school angel Gabriel is not the Holy spirit?
     
  3. spirito

    spirito New Member

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    It's the Quran that says that the trinity includes Mary, because Mohammed, when he made up his lies, had only vague notions of Christianity.

    And when Allah will say: O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah? He will say: Glory be to Thee! it was not for me to say what I had no right to (say). If I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. Surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen.
    Quran 5:116

    I presented evidence, you only said that I lied. What are my lies exactly? Muslims are indeed covering up their history, because it shows how fake their beginning is. Exactly like they burned all the different versions of the Quran that were circulating around.

    Well, how are muslims "respecting" Jesus if they are corrupting him?

    Imagine this scenario: my uncle is a police officer who saved 10 people from a robbery in a bank. I am his beloved nephew. Who is better in my eyes? A total stranger who doesn't recognize him and doesn't even know what my uncle did, or someone who says that my uncle was a drunkard, from a different religion, who didn't save anyone in the bank etc? Pretty much stealing his identity and corrupting it in order to further their agenda.

    I understand your point of view, but I disagree with you. Silence is better than a lie in my eyes.
     
  4. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    This doesn't say anything about the trinity.
    Evidence is usually something that can't be denied easily.
    I was only making a general statement there because you repeat a lot of misinformation you have heard from somewhere - which you can easily find is false if you read a little - and still seem to think yourself very honest.
    Those weren't versions of the Qur'an. They were
    verses of the Qur'an - and incorrectly written down. But you would like Muslims to be confused about the revelation they received for an eternity, wouldn't you?
    I don't think God is that prejudiced and insecure.
    Then why don't you zip it?
     
  5. spirito

    spirito New Member

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    Yes it does: God, Jesus and Mary. According to the Quran. Where is your evidence against this?

    Again, we have evidence of muslims burning down versions of the Quran. Now you say it was only verses. First of all, even if it were only verses, it would still be covering up the evidence, because unlike Christians who acknowledge the history of their manuscripts, muslims just burn down what they dislike. Burning down = covering up history in case you didn't realize it.
    And then again, where is your evidence that it was only verses and not entire different versions of the Quran? You do know that entire chapters of the Quran are missing according to the "best reciters" according to Mohammed yes?

    You should be the one to zip it since it's you the one who corrupts Jesus, not me. Jesus said something with his own mouth and you changed it. I didn't change one word he said. I am still waiting for any evidence of me lying. So far you've just accused me without backing anything up.
     
  6. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    The exact verse you quoted, and many others. So rather, where is your evidence for it? Does it mention trinity? Or does it mention three daities? Trinity in the dictionary is not just the Christian trinity - "group consisting of three closely related members." [wordnik]So even if you wanted for some reason to say that since there's three, it's a trinity, it wouldn't make it the trinity.
    What is that? Where can I find it?
    They burned what they concluded, after extremely careful work in compiling the Qur'an with only the correct verses it it, to be incorrect; never uttered by the prophet. There were no computers those days, no copying machines, not even paper. Every single Qur'an that was copied took tremendous effort.
    Where is yours for it? You're the one making the claim and you already said there is evidence.
    Certainly I don't since it has never happened but I'll look at your 'evidence' if you present it.
     
  7. spirito

    spirito New Member

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    Nonsense. The word "trinity" doesn't even appear in the Bible itself. So since the word "trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible it means that it's never talking about it? Again, nonsense.
    This is where the Quran talks about Christians associating other gods to God, and it mentions Mary and Jesus, clearly getting the trinity wrong.

    I presented evidence. Where is yours again?

    Evidence that they burned entire copies of the Quran and not single verses like you said.
    And again, even if the burned one single verse, it would still be covering up history of the Quran.

    Narrated Anas bin Malik:

    Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)
    Sahih Bukhari 6:61:510



    Evidence of entire chapters of the Quran being missing. Certainly among burned copies, archaeological sites being covered up with cement, mosques being completely renovated in order to mask their original status, certainly the muslims are not covering up history.

    Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).
    Sahih Muslim 5:2286

    Where is your evidence of me lying instead? Again, Jesus said X words. You muslims changed many of them and changed his message completely. I changed zero words said by Jesus and didn't touch his message at all. I don't know who Jesus would prefer among me and muslims, but I have a strong feeling that it would be me.
     
  8. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    Gabriel is an angel which both Muslims and Christians agree on and both agree he is not God Himself. The confusion of the notion of a Messenger with the Christian idea of the paraclete is the problem here.

    The Christian doctrine is below and clearly neither Gabriel or Muhammad fit the Christian definition as neither claim to be God. The error here is one of ignorance rather than direct blasphemy IMHO:

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son and is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets. Nicean Creed from Constantinople 381

    Also in longer form the Athanasian Creed:

    Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

    42. and shall give account of their own works.

    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  9. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    “The Jews say: ‘The Christians are not on the right track,’ and the Christians say: "It is the Jews who are not on the right track," yet both read their Holy Books (Torah or Gospel)” S. 2:113

    Examples where Muslims get it wrong include that Jesus did not die on a cross and is not the Son of God which is clearly affirmed in scripture. For example this is what Gabriel said to Mary and this completely contradicts what Muslims believe he told Muhammad

    Luke 1:26-28
    The Birth of Jesus Foretold
    26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

    29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

    35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. 37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

    38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.” Then the angel left her.
     
  10. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    It is an impossible point to avoid when all your key sources are Arabian that Islam is pretty much Arabian really.
     
  11. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why won't you answer?

    Taking the Holy Scripture and apply verses to yourself that don't apply to you, but rather apply to the Spirit of the Living God, is blasphemy in our faith..

    It doesn't matter what you later call the Holy Spirit (which is still blasphemous) - it's the verse from the Bible that matters.

    I'm curious why you hide what it is you believe..
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  12. Snoder

    Snoder Member

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    Yes, that's what Muslims believe. If anyone tells you that the words they speak are the literal words of God, especially if they make war, have multiple wives, and sleep with 9 year old girls, you should know something is wrong.

    I'm glad your god wrote this upon pillars in Heaven. You can't justify his ramblings as anything meaningful, much less God writing down words for mankind. Someone married someone, a former slave. That was not acceptable. Muhammad made it ok. Then they divorced.

    ...uh huh.

    Divorce is to be taken seriously in Islam.

    "However, that it is something prohibited or something to be avoided with the expense of the well-being of either spouse is false, and that is what we also learn from this story."

    These are great words of wisdom written word by word from God.
     
  13. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    In your original post you said blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is the only unforgiveable sin. If true that condemns all Muslims to hell irredeemably.

    <<<<<Again, the entire religion is predicated upon blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. >>>

    Islam - Can Islam be distinguished from Arab I
     
  14. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am unclear how what Mohammed did and convinced people of, makes all Muslims guilty of the same crime?

    I believe all Muslims would have to do the same thing, for them to be guilty...

    They are decieved, there is a difference.

    So I'm very unclear what your trying to say? If I accuse one person who began a religion on the falsehood of a blasphemy, it doesn't seem to indicate to me that all those he deceived with the lie would automatically be guilty of what he did.

    People are only guilty of their own sin..
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  15. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Again, my evidence is in the Qur'an, even in these very verses that you refer to. They say nothing about and refer on no way to trinity. You just imagine it does because someone told you so. Also, there were Arabs at the time who did worship Mary as well.
    They may have burned both but they definitely also burned verses. However, these are manuscripts written by random people. They were told to copy the Qur'an if they wish to copy it, from the original only. They disobeyed and copied from each other. Also these were people from other areas. Why would they be likely to have a copy more correct than those who of the Sahabah?
    That's very silly. If someone writes the Bible from memory now and writes parts of it wrong and forgets others and uses the wrong dialect to other parts, would you order mankind to save that copy for eternity to preserve 'history' of the Bible?
    I am not able to find sufficient information regarding this hadith to say much about it. It appears to have at least one unreliable narrator. However, the concensus is that there is no verse, not to mention a surah, left out of the Qur'an.
    I am not interested in debating about who is right regarding Jesus. We will never get anywhere because I believe in the Qur'an, every word in it. So my position is what it is.
     
  16. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Your point being?
     
  17. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    you know, if you tell people what school you follow and what sect you belong to it would be helpful if you plan on having discussions about Islam with people.

    All your doing right now is to hide what you believe so that you can throw out any hadith that doesn't fit whatever narrative your trying to spin here, and that is disingenuous at best, truly deceptive..

    your either interested in discussion with people about your faith, or interested in protecting Islam from any accusation that comes against it.

    seems to me your in defense mode, truth be damned.
     
  18. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    The word paraclete occurs many many times in the Bible. Christians may have generally agreed that Jesus uses it in his speech as referring to the Holy spirit. But Islam is not just continuation of the Gospel but the Torah as well. So really it is the christians who later chose to use the word 'Holy spirit' to replace the other meanings the word had had before.
     
  19. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Which has nothing to do with what either I said or the poster I was responding to said. There is just one Islam. But if it means so much to you and you think it helps you to form your arguments and if you couldn't guess it already - I am a Sunni Muslim.
     
  20. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Which school? Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali... ?

    It's far easier to have discussions with people when you know which scholars and which schools they accept the teachings of in the first place..

    if you notice this is a problem area this entire thread..

    I mean, if you'll never accept a judgement by Ibn Taymiyyah it's easier to know upfront before they go through the trouble of quoting from him, on the other hand if you just love his teachings, it's a good thing for people to know.
     
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