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Featured Islam Can Islam be distinguished from Arab I

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by mindlight, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    This is also funny, because the answer essentially says they need to learn as much as is necessary to pray, but not necessarily for other purposes, but even to understand the question, they have to talk about and translate Arabic terms. Hahaha.

    I can't imagine doing this sort of thing and still expecting to be taken seriously as a religion for all mankind, as I know Islam sees itself to be. While it is advantageous in my own church to know Arabic, it is in no way required, and probably if you surveyed any number of Coptic people you would find at best a rather ambiguous attitude towards its use, especially in the diaspora, probably dominated by pragmatic concerns (i.e., the makeup of any given parish) rather than religious ones. Arabic is the invader's language in the case of the Egyptians, Syrians, Imazighen, and many other indigenous Middle Eastern and African people.
     
  2. spirito

    spirito New Member

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    Archaeology is showing that islam wasn't Arab but came from Petra. The city of Mecca didn't even exist in the 7th century, that's why the Saudis are rushing to cover the entire city with cement, to cover all the evidence.

    more about this here:
     
  3. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Petra was a city with a mixed Arab and Syriac population at the time of the 7th century and during previous centuries. I personally disagree with Jay Smith’s theory here, but I haven’t followed the Petra theory that much either so I won’t comment on it to much. And no the Saudis aren’t covering Mecca with cement to cover the evidence, how would Hajj even go on then?
     
  4. spirito

    spirito New Member

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    Well, check out that video I posted to know more about it. It's pretty much impossible to think otherwise after you see the evidence.

    They are covering the entire city of Mecca, not the Kaba. By doing so they will cover all the original "house of Mohammed", "house of Khadija", "house of Abu Bakr" and so on. Because otherwise it will show that those places didn't even exist in the 7th century.

    [​IMG]

    this one should be the final result


    [​IMG]
     
  5. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    False. Which Christian source told you that? Almost all Arabic speaking people can understand classical Arabic.
    I have never heard of anyone doing that. The surgery is rare, many women who do go don't go because they're not virgin but because they're afraid they won't bleed and the man might think they are not a virgin. But this is rare.
    I'm not sure that this belong into the same category as the rest, but I see you think it is sinful.
    Untrue obviously.
    Some do but in places like KSA or Iran it can be difficult to get any.
    This is a vice in Islam; affecting the society negatively.
    He does. But not without faith of course.
     
  6. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    The reason you think it revolves around it is probably because that's the direction most Muslims come from.. I've said before al-Bani is not reliable. Neither is Islam QA info.
    How's that?
    Not sure what you mean by Sunnah so no comment. But generally speaking some things are more necessary than others.
    Which has no value in this discussion.
     
  7. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Who exactly is reliable? Whenever I ask Muslims something based on what native Arabic-speaking Egyptian, Sudanese, Iraqi, Jordanian, etc. people have told me about the way that Islam has affected their societies and cultures, they tell me that such-and-such a source is "not reliable", even though it's recorded by Muslim historians and so on.

    Playing "find the real Islam" is tiring after a little while, let after alone 1,400 years and counting. If you can just deny and disclaim everything, then what's the point of even having any of these sources? They'll always be "misinterpreted", "mistranslated", "unreliable", etc. It is frustrating for someone who is just trying to find and verify information. The debate over what is 'true' Islam and what isn't is obviously of no concern to me. I try to look at it historically as I would any religion I'm not a part of, but it's made very difficult by the rewriting and whitewashing of Islam's apologetics. So please tell me who or what is reliable, faithful Muslims.
     
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  8. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    You can largely blame the Jews and the Christians for that. Particularly the ones so often quoted here. Christian apologetics.

    It would be lovely if everyone could just read one or two pages of information and know what Islam is. The same would probably be lovely for Jews regarding Judaism and Christians regarding Christianity. But it doesn't work that way. An individual needs to study and work to find out the answers and most of the essential questions even.

    The Arabic Qur'an is reliable and the good translations with commentary can be leaned on quite a bit. Bukhari has a lot of good in it and it grades hadiths according to how reliable they are.

    Then there's different types of Muslims. A Shia Muslim, for instance, would laugh in your face if you tell them, "I read it from Bukhari," because they are taught that Bukhari is mostly lies.
     
  9. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    How? Did we assemble your Qur'an or collections of Ahadith? I'm talking about what is reliable among Muslim sources. I already know Christian apologetics concerning Islam (less so Jewish ones, but I imagine they are similar, since neither community received Muhammad as a prophet, nor his Qur'an as the word of Allah). That's not the question.

    Yes, fine. I am asking about individual Muslim-authored sources, not about what it takes to find a source reliable or not or to find the "essential questions". Most people simply do not have the time or inclination to do such deep research concerning religions they are not a part of, so it would be really helpful if Muslims who already know what is reliable were honest and said "Yes, this source is reliable", or "No, this source isn't". I could do that with Christian materials from Oriental Orthodox perspective, if a Muslim or other non-Christian were to ask. Muslims should be able to do so with regard to their religion, because this "that's not reliable" or "that's mistranslated" thing is not helpful.

    "Quite a bit", but not totally? What is missing in the translation of the Qur'an that can only be conveyed in the Qurayshi dialect of classical Arabic in which it was originally recorded?

    Yes, I imagine Sahih Muslim and Bukhari are the standard in Sunni Islam.

    Yes, of course.

    Thank you for your reply. So we have learned we can quote from Bukhari and should not be answered by skepticism towards or rejection of the source. I already knew that, but it is good to get a Muslim to state what they will accept, so as to avoid fruitless debate whenever anything that might seem objectionable (for whatever reason) is posted.

    What Qur'an translation would you suggest, if a person cannot or will not dedicate their life to learning Qur'anic Arabic? And what other extra-Quran'ic sources would you classify as reliable?

    Thank you.
     
  10. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Oh so much.

    But a good translation of the meaning and a good commentary gets you somewhere.

    Studying it instead of just reading it, using a word to word translated version alongside it (which for instance also shows the grammatics of the words, such as whether it is masculine or feminine or plural), comparing translations and studying tafseer, will get you much farther.
    Regarding Bukhari first you have to see the grading of what you're quoting. After that some Sunni scholars can still reject the hadith, but it is unlikely to be rejected if it is Sahih. Of course the next problem is the interpretation of the hadith.
    islamawakened.com is a good site that has a list of translations of the meaning of the Qur'an with all of them in categories [generally accepted/controversial/non-Muslim] There you also see a list of those whose translations are generally accepted. Yusuf Ali's work is one that is excellent and his work is available online for free with the commentary.

    I consider no other source as strictly reliable.
     
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  11. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Firstly your categorizing of Al Bani as not reliable is absolutely foreign to this discussion, you originally said that most famous Islamic scholars are Middle Eastern which currently isn’t the case, secondly previously you provided no proof that Al Bani isn’t a reliable Islamic scholar to take information from. IslamQA is probably the most reliable Islamic website when it comes to rulings and fiqh and etc, because it always quotes sources to back it’s information or rulings.

    What I mean by Sunnah are the traditions that are attributed to Mohammed as oral traditions within the Hadith and Sirah.

    Since Ibn Ishaq is the earliest surviving biography of Mohammeds life which in its original form also no longer survives (sadly), I’m free to quote information from it freely so long as it backs my practicular stance. Not to mention you freely ignored all the other narrations I put up there on racism other then Ibn Ishaq's.
     
  12. Aspzan

    Aspzan Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I could be wrong but it seems you're equating the declined "Western" culture with Christians? I don't want to go through the list but I think myself (NOT bragging) and many Christians do the things you listed. Or don't do depending on which. I heard it's common for a muslim to see the West and think negatively of Christianity. By my belief and from Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV)


    13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

    14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    Jesus says there are few that make it to heaven and I believe he's saying few are real Christians.
     
  13. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    You've unlocked the key, my friend! :idea: :D
     
  14. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    Because Islam tends to micromanage life down the most minute details, inevitably it means the importation of Arab customs into cultures that it influences.
     
  15. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    So can you name a non Arab theologian you would trust as generally reliable?
     
  16. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    That's complicated. When I study about Islam I don't look at the ethnicity of a scholar. And how do you define an Arab? Is someone born to Arab parents but in the west, for instance, an Arab to you? What about a theologian? Is an Islamic scholar automatically a theologian? What about Shia Muslims?
     
  17. Snoder

    Snoder Member

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    Actually Muslims believe that anything spoken by Muhammad are the literal words of God. He wasn't inspired by God like the prophets, he can just say something and they are the words of God.

    It is difficult to respect Muslims after reading the Quran and thinking they really believe this is what God wants to reveal word for word to humanity?
     
  18. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    I'm quite sure I explained my view. If you want more details, use a search engine.

    And what about the numerous other sites that do the same? That site has got so much strictly false information in it, but since that's all you're looking for...
     
  19. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The majority of Muslims are not exactly Arab, and they don't exactly speak arabic. Classical Arabic isn't used in daily speech in any nation, not even Saudia.

    As for my source, I was Muslim until 5 years ago.

    I fully admit that it's pricier but its still common enough and it's not because they are virgins they are going through this surgery.

    lol..

    It's easily made, it doesn't have to be purchased, and there is a robust black market in countries like KSA

    And your point? to close your eyes and pretend sin doesn't exist in Muslim majority nations is to slam your eyes closed to the truth.

    ..

    I'll keep my thoughts to myself here as I'm unsure the forum rules..
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
  20. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Do I really have to tell you you're wrong or do you already know it yourself?
     
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