• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured Islam Can Islam be distinguished from Arab I

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by mindlight, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

    +1,592
    Germany
    Christian
    Married
    Islam started in Arabia, Muhammad was an Arab, his early companions were Arabs. The Qur'an itself is written in and read in Arabic.

    So from its earliest days Arabs have been dominant in Islam. Today Hajj is to an Arabic country and Muslims bow to Mecca in Saudi Arabia. Saudia Arabia spends billions promoting its view of Islam.

    Given such strong Arabian roots Arabs have often insisted they know best in matters Muslim. Obviously Turks, Iranians and many others do not always see eye to eye with their Arab cousins in the faith. This is a root of many conflicts, historical and modern.

    To what extent do non Arabian Muslims think Arabian dominance and authoritarianism is a problem?

    Is the problem too deeply rooted in Islam's core texts and indeed in the life of Muhammad to be resolved?

    Can true Islam exist without Arabs?
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,752
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    Islam truly is Arabization, all Muslims either willingly or unknowingly to some extent embrace Arab culture upon adoption of Islam as a faith and way of life or those brought up into it from birth. Like you said the Quran was written in Classicsl Arabic and memorized in Classical Arabic, and can’t be translated for some reason which forces all Muslims to learn Arabic in one way or another, even those Muslims who don’t speak Arabic or don’t come from any Semitic cultures such as Indians, Pakistanis, Africans, Europeans, and so forth. Its the reason most of the Middle East has become Arabic speaking and countries such as Iran and Turkey are very Arabized in culture despite being non Arabs and Iran’s rich pre-Islamic history. It’s also considered to follow the Sunnah to grow a beard and any cutting or trimming of the beard is considered a violation of the Sunnah of Mohammed, the fact that you have to follow Mohammed a seventh century Arab pagan in everything you do in life including going to the bathroom and acting like him in all forms of daily life is both ridiculous and pure Arabism.

    Christianity however in my view is adaptable to every single culture and assimilated into every culture it came into contact with and overcame the Judaization of the faith as we saw in Acts of the Apostles. Although Jesus was an Israelite and Judean, all Christians including myself keep our own individual identities and cultures, Europeans stay Europeans, Africans stay Africans, Chinese remain Chinese, and so forth. As Apostle Paul once said:

    There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Galatians 3:28

    Narrated Wathilah bin Al-Asqa': that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “Indeed Allah has chosen Isma'il from the children of Ibrahim, and He chose Banu Kinanah from the children of Isma'il, and He chose the Quraish from Banu Kinanah, and He chose Banu Hashim from Quraish, and He chose me from Banu Hashim.”

    Jami` at-Tirmidhi 6:46:3605


    "I have heard the Apostle say: 'Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal.' He was a sturdy black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks. He used to come and talk with the Prophet and listen to him. He would carry what he had said to the hypocrites. Nabtal said, 'Muhammad is all ears. If anyone tells him something he believes it.' Allah sent down concerning him: 'To those who annoy the Prophet and say that he is all ears, say, 'Good ears for you.' For those who annoy the Apostle there is a painful punishment."

    Ibn Ishaq: 243

    Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: concerning the dream of the Prophet in Medina: The Prophet said, “I saw (in a dream) a black woman with unkempt hair going out of Medina and settling at Mahai'a. I interpreted that as (a symbol of) the epidemic of Medina being transferred to Mahai'a, namely, Al-Juhfa.”

    Sahih Bukhari 9:87:162

    “Islamic” Noah:

    “Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them.”

    Al-Tabari, Vol. 2, p. 21, p. 21

    Historical Islamic scholars and jurists:

    Ibn Khaldun (1332–1406) was, among other things, an Islamic jurist, Islamic lawyer, Islamic scholar, Islamic theologian, and hafiz

    “Therefore, the Negro nation are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because [Negroes] have little [that is essentially] human and have attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated.”

    Ibn Khaldun, Muqaddimah, 14th century


    Al Jahiz (781–869), was a famous Muslim scholar
    “Like the crow among mankind are the Zanj [African Blacks] for they are the worst of men and the most vicious of creatures in character and temperament”

    Jahiz, Kitab al-Hayawan, vol. 2


    Ibn Sina or Avicenna (980-1037), was, among other things, a Hafiz, Islamic psychologist, Islamic scholar, and Islamic theologian

    “[Blacks are] people who are by their very nature slaves.”

    Quoted in “Blasphemy Before God: The Darkness of Racism In Muslim Culture” by Adam Misbah aI-Haqq

    Nasir Al Din Al Tusi (1201-1274), was a Shia Muslim Scholar and Grand Ayatollah


    “If (all types of men) are taken, from the first, and one placed after another, like the Negro from Zanzibar, in the Southern-most countries, the Negro does not differ from an animal in anything except the fact that his hands have been lifted from the earth -in no other peculiarity or property - except for what God wished. Many have seen that the ape is more capable of being trained than the Negro, and more intelligent.”

    Nasir al-Din al-Tusi, Tasawwurat (Rawdat al-taslim)

    So yes Islam does promote Arabs over non Arabs and does Arabize its adherents.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  3. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

    +2,169
    United States
    Reformed
    Single
    US-Republican
    Muhammad is seen to be a great messenger of Islam, but they do not believe he is central to the teaching of Islam as we Christians see Jesus central to our faith. Same with the Arab people, they believe Jews were Muslim.
     
  4. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

    +7,284
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    I don't know about all things Muslim, but it's pretty obvious that Arab cultural chauvinism is buried very deeply in the Muslim psyche, regardless of whether it is recognized for what it is or whether any particular Muslim or non-Muslim thinks it should be there. It is definitely manifest, for instance, in the view of traditional Muslim sources on language, which is rather strange when you consider Islam's supposedly universal message.

    Stefan Wild, citing ibn 'Asakir (12th c. AD), explains the view in the following words*: "The most widely accepted historical model that explained the existence of languages other than Arabic was built on the supposition that Arabic had been at a certain time the universal language. [....] Arabic was Adam's language in Paradise until he disobeyed God. Then God deprived him of Arabic and he started speaking Syriac, evidently considered a lesser language or a corrupted form of Arabic. When Adam repented, however, God gave the Arabic language back to him." (194)


    * "Arabic Avant Le Lettre. Divine, Prophetic, and Heroic Arabic", in Ditters and Motzki [eds.] Approaches to Arabic Linguistics: Presented to Kees Versteegh on the Occasion of his Sixtieth Birthday, Brill 2007, 189-208
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  5. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

    228
    +18
    France
    Muslim
    Private
    I doubt they do. If there is a problem with Arabs it's more likely to be political. Do Iranians consider themselves less Muslim than Yemenis? No. Yemenis might consider themselves more Muslim. But this is just patriotism.
    No.
    Yes.
     
  6. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

    228
    +18
    France
    Muslim
    Private
    Since their best examples and scholars are middle Easters this difficult to avoid.

    Because the Arabic language is very rich. Ask a linguistic. This is not a 'Muslim opinion'
    Not all of them do, nor are they forced. The Arabic language is difficult to learn.
    Most Muslim cut and trim their beard. And that is indeed hoped for. But the Sunnah is to not shave it off. It's not an obligation, but voluntary.
    Again, you don't have to.
    A lot of such matter have been found to be good for a person from a scientific point of view.

    For instance, the Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) said, that Satan lies down on his stomach. Meaning one shouldn't do it. And now we know that sleeping on your stomach - while it can come with some benefits - is considered the worst sleeping position. The Prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) always slept on his right side. There is no conclusive evidence to this day whether it is better to sleep on the left or the right side, and sleeping on your back has benefits as well, but then the prophet (Sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) never reportedly [as far as I know - correct me if I'm wrong] told anyone to sleep on their right side. Nor did he prohibit sleeping on one's stomach, but clearly his words are a recommendation not to do so.

    He also taught people to preferably wash their private parts after urinating or excreting, if water was available, which also was and is a way to keep up good hygeniene.
    Can an Arab become a Christian and remain an Arab in your view?

    One problem is that Christianity is weak these days. Yes, anyone can call themselves Christian, but are they really practicing Christianity? Most of them are not. Most have never read the bible. They don't care about the Bible. They don't go to church. They don't dress modestly. They don't abstain from premarital sex. They drink and smoke. They don't pray. What kind of 'Christians' are these?
    No jew, no slaves, no male, no female?
    This hadith is not considered authentic.
     
  7. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

    228
    +18
    France
    Muslim
    Private
    False and false.
     
  8. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

    +1,235
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    I don't think Islam can ever separate itself from the Arab people and culture. It would be hard to picture a British form of Islam devoid of Arabic influences. Non Arab Muslims will continue to take Arab names, adopt traditionally Arab practices that Muhammad involved himself in and the such. Would they build Mosques in the western style, instead of using domes and minarets as another example? All these things define the externals of Islam and it's hard to separate them from the religion itself even if they aren't essential.

    Certain external characteristics are key to Christianity too mind you, yet I do think Christianity is more amenable to other cultures. For one we don't maintain the Gospel can only be understood in Greek. Helps and is essential if you want to be learned but it is just as legitimate to read a translation. I don't know if Christianity escapes the same charge back at it. Consider for instance Iconography in the Byzantine style. It is used all over the Orthodox world and it would be quite hard to change that in favor of local art styles being used in the painting of icons for a Church.

    I don't know if the Muslim should be bothered by the clearly Arabic nature of their religion. Muhammad was an Arab and everything he did was perfect. Why shouldn't all men aspire to be like the Arabs in Islam?
     
  9. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

    228
    +18
    France
    Muslim
    Private
    Should they "build mosques" in Western style? Most mosques are rented or bought places in buildings already made until some small part of it was made into a mosque, not by changing the building but by decorating as a mosque.
    Would Christians build their churches in the middle Eastern style?
    There's problems with the Bible's translation as well. All Muslims should aspire to be as knowledgeable as possible. It is no good just reading and saying, "I know enough."

    Because Arabs aren't perfect. Now you said in Islam, but the OP claims they are trying to be like Arabs in other things.
     
  10. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

    +1,592
    Germany
    Christian
    Married
    That is quite a simplistic reply.

    In Iraq for instance Arab Dominance which has been in place since the Muslim conquest of the Sassine Empire was overthrown by the Coalitions deposition of Sadam Hussein and the Baathist party. This having previously been affirmed by both British and Turks before them. The overthrown Sunni Arabs clearly have a problem being in the junior position and the civil war the country has been in since the American departure and then the rise of Daesh can be traced to this question of Arab authoritarianism extending into both religious and political spheres.
     
  11. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

    228
    +18
    France
    Muslim
    Private
    It's got nothing to do with one being an arab
     
  12. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,593
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Seriously?

    You know the same sins exist in Islamic culture.. its just covered up and swept under the rug.

    1.) Plenty of Muslims smoke.

    2.) The majority of Muslims cant understand classical Arabic and therefore memorize sounds and take their religion from men who tell them what those sounds are supposed to mean.

    3.) Muslim women just have surgery to restore their virginity, or at least to fake it enough to make it through the wedding night.

    There is also homosexuality practiced, and paedophilia is written off as acceptable by scholars.

    They drink alcohol and other such things as well.. tthey just do it all behind closed doors.

    At least in Christianity you know what your getting up front. It's all in the open, and those who are faithful are also able to be clearly seen - unlike Islam.

    Going into a mosque and reciting a few prayers you don't understand doesn't make you a faithful Muslim anymore than warming a pew and hearing a sermon makes you a Christian.

    Muslims make a better show of religion, but plays and performances are worthless in the sight of God.. He doesn't desire your show of religion..
     
  13. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

    228
    +18
    France
    Muslim
    Private
    Whataboutism. My question was, what kind Christians are they? BTW, there were a few errors in what you just said.
     
  14. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,593
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    what are my errors do you suppose?
     
  15. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +2,593
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    10 minutes later and silence.. lol. You don't even know the errors because you don't have a clue what the culture is..

    It's a culture I lived and breathed, so before you make the attempt to claim error, you should first know what your talking about.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  16. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

    +1,235
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    I'll confess I'm ignorant of Arabic buildings. Though don't imagine there being anything wrong with borrowing Arabic architecture in church building, especially for Antiochian Orthodox Churches. There are similateries between Orthodox Churches and Mosques. Both have domes and a similar stone look.
    Doing some googling turned up this example of a Norman-Arabic Church on sicily.

    Church of San Cataldo - Wikipedia

    So should Muslims build Mosques in the western style? If they want to assimilate into western society, yes. If they want to replace western civilization, then no.

    As for my point about Muslims imitating Arabs, I still think what I say is legitimate and probably accounts for the similar culture among Muslims in general. They seek to imitate Muhammad whom was Arab and was the perfect example for all mankind, in literally every action he ever took. This includes even though elements which would not be mandatory for Muslims.
     
  17. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

    +1,592
    Germany
    Christian
    Married
    The whole Islamic setup is Arabic , you cannot get round that, Muhammad was an Arab who married 6 year olds (cause that is what Arab men did in those days). As the discussion on Hadith indicated non Arabic Muslims mimic Islamic practices of the prophet as a matter of lifestyle and in the case of Sunna for Sharia law. The Quran is written and read in Arabic. It was Arabs that built the original caliphate and still seem to believe they run it, after all they control Mecca and Medina and everyone has to go to Arabia for Hajj. Take away the promise given to the children of Ishmael in fact and Islam would never have had the common grace to exist in the first place.

    So it has everything to do with being a Sunni Arab. All the Arab strong men that have dominated Middle eastern politics in the last 60-70 years have been Sunni Arabs. In fact it is a long list of mass murdering psychopathic anti Democratic dictators, that we have loved to hate, including Sadam Hussein - butchering Shia Marsh Maʻdān and Sunni Kurds and starting wars with all his neighbours, Morsi (Muslim Brotherhood) picking on Coptic Christians and sane secularists, Colonel Gadaffi Arab nationalist supporting the IRA ,oppressing non Arabs and killing his own people, Nasser - again an anti Western Arab authoritarian, Omar al-Bashir who loved to kill the black Sunnis of Dafur and the Christians of South Sudan...…. Indeed even the rebellions against these strongmen have had a strong component of Sunni Arabization thrown in since just about all the major terrorist groups are led by Arabs e.g. Daesh, Al Quaeda. You may well be a house divided by family feuds between Authoritarian ruling Arab families and Arab Religious Extremists but the lack of democracy and the persecution of Christians and of non-Arabic Muslims is all about the Arabs at the end of the day.

    The only big exceptions of people in the Muslim world giving an alternate focus to this Arab authoritarianism here is Erdogan (Turkey - old Ottoman model making a resurgence) and the various Iranian leaders since the Ayatollah Khomeini (Shia- Persian based) and arguably they simply replicate the same Arab authoritarian model into their own cultural backgrounds. But how the Muslim world stays together when it is dominated by people who love fighting amongst themselves as much as with the rest of us is anyones guess.
     
  18. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

    +1,592
    Germany
    Christian
    Married
    The Muslims copied the Dome idea from the Byzantines e.g. Hagia Sophia and the Dome of the Rock was most likely built by Christians copying Christian designs and then having a Muslim architect take the credit for it
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  19. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,752
    Saudi Arabia
    Melkite Catholic
    Private
    Many famous Islamic scholars were from totally Non Arabic backgrounds, Sheikh Al Bani is your most famous example, he was ethnically Albanian, not middle eastern in the slightest, Yusuf Ali the famous translator of the Quran into English was Indian, and so forth. So why does Islam still revolve around Arab culture, while many of their own scholars weren’t and aren’t Arabs.

    The Hebrew language is also rich linguistically, how many Christians act like Jews today though? None, besides Christians from Jewish backgrounds or Messianics. Having a rich language doesn’t necessarily mean that everywhere it spreads cultures become completely assimilated by it, even Iran and the Persian culture which is a very rich culture and history in its own right has practically become assimilated by Arabism, Egypt is also a good example of total Arabization.

    Arabic is very difficult to learn, the fact that translating the Quran is forbidden and prayering Surat Al Fatiha and tashbeeh obviously must done in Arabic, you can’t actually do Salat in English:

    Is it waajib (obligatory) for non-Arabs to learn Arabic? - Islam Question & Answer

    The problem ofMuslims’ linguistic assimilation in foreign countries - Islam Question & Answer

    Technically following the Sunnah means your obeying Mohammed which is the only way to obey God in Islam, not following the Sunnah in Islam is the equivalent of a Christian reading the Bible and going to church yet on one hand getting drunk and doing drugs every now and then, true not following the Sunnah doesn’t make you a kaafir, but it makes you a grave sinner in Islam. So in a way it is obligatory, but it doesn’t make you a non Muslim if you don’t follow it:

    Justification for following the Sunnah - Islam Question & Answer

    How can Satan even have a stomach if he’s an ethereal non physcial being?

    I’m Arab and Christian although all Levantines were originally Syriac we’ve become Arabized throughout the centuries, I don’t think any part of my cultural identity has changed after my adoption of Christianity nor do my daily practices in life.

    Christianity isn’t weak, it’s adherents are weak, the people you described aren’t Christians it’s very simple. I wouldn’t call someone born to Muslim parents or to a family of Muslim heritage but doesn’t practice or believe in Islam a Muslim.

    What I quoted for you isn’t from a Hadith book it’s part of Mohammed’s Sirah in Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq. Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allahs is the earliest biography we have of Mohammed’s life. While from a historical viewpoint I wouldn’t take it as reliable due to its far removed nature form the events it’s records and it not being put together by eyewitnesses or those who were taught by the eyewitness or their students, however it’s the earliest thing you’ve got as a source for Mohammed’s and anything he did or said in his lifetime.
     
  20. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

    +7,284
    Oriental Orthodox
    Private
    Hahahaha. This is hilarious. In a thread about Islam and Muslims we read: "Whataboutism. My question was, what kind of Christians are they?"

    Will there ever be anything Muslims do that they will not attempt to deflect onto other unrelated people?
     
Loading...