Can I question some things I hear, in our Charismatic movement?

[BenAdam]

To speak a prophesy is one thing, to speak your opinion is another. When prophesying a believer is speaking what God has told them to say. There is a high bar there to meet. One must ensure that is what God is saying, even by faith. I am willing to give someone new to it some grace, but like I said, after too many times being wrong about what you are saying, it is time to hang up that mantle, you are not prophesying.

And whether or not I agree with what someone is prophesying is not the issue, it come down to verifiable truth, either they are right or wrong about what they are saying. If it can't be verified, I tend to doubt it unless they have a proven track record.

 

[Alive_Again]

It is best that you do not partake of their ministry, and if you are not familiar with what they are doing, even wiser not to speak against them (if you were to be inclined).

There are a lot of legitimate ministries I don't listen to either. I don't assume it's because they are off-base, but some I certainly question. Yet I don't air those questions out. If I ran across a statement someone made and made a note of it (I have done this recently about someone.), I would certainly be prayerful about it.

This was someone I deeply respected and they related to something they experienced very early in their ministry. I was downcast for the night as a result. I do believe he was deceived. This does not invalidate his ministry, I just do not stand with him regarding the statements he made. I certainly won't speak against him because I know how deeply anointed he usually is. It would be amiss (because of this error) to imply to others that he was a false prophet (He's a prophet too.).

 

[Frogster]

Just because someone is sincere in their false prophecy, doesn't make it ok.

The first time, sure, the second ok, but by the 10th time, they lack honesty in that they keep doing something that they have been wrong so many times about.

AHHHH...NOW.... THAT IS WISDOM...THANKS!

 

[Frogster]

[

 

[Frogster]

Who's to say they made 10 mistaken prophecies? People make these gross assumptions. How many times have you made the wrong assertion since you've been a believer about what God was or was going to do? I thought we'd be out of here decades ago (rapture)!

I'm sure we've all made enough to never speak again if they were to line them all up. I've eaten plenty of words and hopefully, am more reserved about deductive reasoning. In the search for understanding, we all form some deductive reasonings. We all know in part (even when we do know). So why is everyone such an expert in reading the motives of the heart in some of these ministers?

Why is it so important to them to make it a lifestyle? It's because it is a stronghold. Someone can bite their tongue for a while but it always seems to burst out like a flood.

I like what Kat Kerr said about this (that God told her). "If they're for me, they're not against Me." She was speaking about Copeland and Benny and Joyce. She said, "If you knew what some of these people gave of their lives for God." Literally pouring it out for the kingdom. These are some of the very things that are going to be judged.

We don't have to take up the burden of "pointing out people's mispoken words" at various times of their lives. It's like a late night talk show and is very worldly.

Their words (and believers who do the same thing) become tools for the enemy. It affects their well being (or will try to) and you loose the very same thing in your own life (because of the Word).

If someone was bold enough to prophesy something publicly, you might state (if the Lord gave you space) that you don't agree with that statement. Isn't a love motive though have a greater desire to cover a transgression (if there is one)? If someone (your friend was intending to receive ministry from) asked, you might share that (if you were impressed to). You might also check their ministry and see if they're getting a lot of people saved, filled, and healed. Are they giving their lives to spreading the Word, taking people out of bondage from law into grace?

To speak against these people invites big trouble!! It's easy to verify that Copeland, Hinn, and Joyce are all doing this. You might not agree with everyone's doctrine (I don't), but that doesn't make these a "false believer" or a "false prophet".

Did I use text the right way, in the OP?

I talk text.....text...text...

You know whay? because there is alot to prove what I do as scriptural, but very little in the text, to support your view, other than you 1 cor 13, about love, as someome told you, there are rebukes right in that very book, and don't let me go into 2 Cor where i can really prove my point, as Paul leveled false apostels, so please, when you have a minute, go line by line, and refute the op texts ,thanks a million, have a great day, frog.

I understand emotional posts, really,,yes, amen, fine, but please post one of my verses from the OP, and we can chat about it,,,yes?

 

[Frogster]

It is best that you do not partake of their ministry, and if you are not familiar with what they are doing, even wiser not to speak against them (if you were to be inclined).

There are a lot of legitimate ministries I don't listen to either. I don't assume it's because they are off-base, but some I certainly question. Yet I don't air those questions out. If I ran across a statement someone made and made a note of it (I have done this recently about someone.), I would certainly be prayerful about it.

This was someone I deeply respected and they related to something they experienced very early in their ministry. I was downcast for the night as a result. I do believe he was deceived. This does not invalidate his ministry, I just do not stand with him regarding the statements he made. I certainly won't speak against him because I know how deeply anointed he usually is. It would be amiss (because of this error) to imply to others that he was a false prophet (He's a prophet too.).

Anointed? Who decides? I am sure this little fellow thought he was "anointed'.

3 John 9 I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority.

 

[Frogster]

It is best that you do not partake of their ministry, and if you are not familiar with what they are doing, even wiser not to speak against them (if you were to be inclined).

There are a lot of legitimate ministries I don't listen to either. I don't assume it's because they are off-base, but some I certainly question. Yet I don't air those questions out. If I ran across a statement someone made and made a note of it (I have done this recently about someone.), I would certainly be prayerful about it.

This was someone I deeply respected and they related to something they experienced very early in their ministry. I was downcast for the night as a result. I do believe he was deceived. This does not invalidate his ministry, I just do not stand with him regarding the statements he made. I certainly won't speak against him because I know how deeply anointed he usually is. It would be amiss (because of this error) to imply to others that he was a false prophet (He's a prophet too.).

by rthe way, the op asks a good question...Just because miralces are in the BIble, does that mean everyone gets a free ride, just because they say miracles are in the Bible? Does jesus warn of false signs and wonders, as well as Paul?

So qagain, with all due respect, if you moved from the personal, into the scriptural, we could have a rather fine chat...

be blessed, your bro frog.

 

[Frogster]

To speak a prophesy is one thing, to speak your opinion is another. When prophesying a believer is speaking what God has told them to say. There is a high bar there to meet. One must ensure that is what God is saying, even by faith. I am willing to give someone new to it some grace, but like I said, after too many times being wrong about what you are saying, it is time to hang up that mantle, you are not prophesying.

And whether or not I agree with what someone is prophesying is not the issue, it come down to verifiable truth, either they are right or wrong about what they are saying. If it can't be verified, I tend to doubt it unless they have a proven track record.

As you know, some use the "touch not my anointed" verse to put a protectionist umbrella over false apostles, false evertthing.

Cult leaders thrive on that verse!

 

[Frogster]

Text time!

Paul wondered how they got so swept away, by these false bragging apostles, even to another spirit...shows a warning there indeed, don't look at flesh, when so called "anointed ones" come.


2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

 

[MikeBigg]

by rthe way, the op asks a good question...Just because miralces are in the BIble, does that mean everyone gets a free ride, just because they say miracles are in the Bible? Does jesus warn of false signs and wonders, as well as Paul?

I've read this thread with interest. Whilst its hard to disagree with testing everything against the Bible, I also feel slightly uncomfortable with that for fear than it might limit God - I have said before that I think God is bigger than the Bible.

Let me tell you a story, which at first glance is clearly unbiblical, but then I'll try to explain what was going on ...

A healing evangelist whilst at a church Bible week camp in the uk called out a word of knowledge for children with a skin complaint. He then went on to spray them with a water pistol and many of them were healed.

Clearly, waterpistols aren't in the Bible, so this is clearly unbiblical and the children who were healed obviously didn't have the condition in the first place or weren't properly healed and this man is clearly deluded. Or worse.

Actually, I don't think that is an unreasonable response unless you understand what was going on. This is what was going on, first some things about healing:

1) Jesus healed in different ways - a command, spitting in an eye, spitting in the mud .... Peter went on to see people healed with his shadow.

2) Authority is an element of healing. When JEsus sent out the 12 and the 70 He first gave them authority.

3) We are co-workers with God.

So this healing evangelist was considering that the different ways that Peter and Jesus and others ministered healing was a reflection of how the were exercising their authority.

So, in order to explore this he conceived this idea of spraying the kids with water as an expression of healing authority. And people got healed.

Is that too far out and whacky? More whacky than using your own shadow?

In the miraculous I think there is a whole lot we (the Charismatic movement) still have to learn. Even though we have the Spirit, we don't have anything close to the account in Acts 5 where "All the apostles performed many signs and wonders ... sick people were brought from miles around ... all who were brought got healed" (MikeBigg paraphrase)

The Charismatic movement is stilll young - many of its pioneers are still alive. They took heat from the established church when they were discovering the things of the Spirit. And I bet they got a lot of stuff wrong. Maybe. Big maybe, but maybe we are on the path of re-discovering something of the miraculous and healing and signs and wonders. Maybe. Maybe, like many pioneers they make mistakes and maybe, like most Bible pioneers they are not people we would chose.

I was listening to a message by Randy Clark last night - he said that seeing someone healed is not evidence of correct theology. Don't get your theology from them. On the other hand, you won't get much help with a healing ministry from theologians.

In a small way, I do see people healed (someone got healed by text message the other night - now that isn't in the Bible!), I have had what I believe were angelic visitations and I know personally others who have had them too. I've all but stopped posting my healing stories now because they aren't received well. I'm sure others are the same. I think its a shame because testimonies help feed faith which leads to more.

Kind regards,

Mike

 

[JimB]

One of the most troubling things about Christians (P/C’s included) is their gullibility; their willingness to accept anything that is told them without searching the scripture to see if they are right or not. There seems to be an assumption that when Pentecostals first rediscovered the power available to believers in the Holy Spirit that they immediate became “full” gospel and had spiritual giftings down pat; no one could shed any further light on the subject because, by golly, they were “full” gospel (when in reality, it seems they were only full of themselves). So, yes, I believe P/C’s have a lot to learn. What happened at Azusa and Topeka only scratched the surface and opened God’s treasure chest just a little more. But we have never been “full” of the gospel. We are still babes in the nursery and have a lot to learn and we are never going to learn unless we question what we have been told. The Bereans did—and they were called “noble”! (see Acts 17.11)

If we questioned what we have been taught as readily as we question those who do, we might make some progress. Truth will withstand questions; falsehood won’t. IMO.

 

[Frogster]

I've read this thread with interest. Whilst its hard to disagree with testing everything against the Bible, I also feel slightly uncomfortable with that for fear than it might limit God - I have said before that I think God is bigger than the Bible.

Let me tell you a story, which at first glance is clearly unbiblical, but then I'll try to explain what was going on ...

A healing evangelist whilst at a church Bible week camp in the uk called out a word of knowledge for children with a skin complaint. He then went on to spray them with a water pistol and many of them were healed.

Clearly, waterpistols aren't in the Bible, so this is clearly unbiblical and the children who were healed obviously didn't have the condition in the first place or weren't properly healed and this man is clearly deluded. Or worse.

Actually, I don't think that is an unreasonable response unless you understand what was going on. This is what was going on, first some things about healing:

1) Jesus healed in different ways - a command, spitting in an eye, spitting in the mud .... Peter went on to see people healed with his shadow.

2) Authority is an element of healing. When JEsus sent out the 12 and the 70 He first gave them authority.

3) We are co-workers with God.

So this healing evangelist was considering that the different ways that Peter and Jesus and others ministered healing was a reflection of how the were exercising their authority.

So, in order to explore this he conceived this idea of spraying the kids with water as an expression of healing authority. And people got healed.

Is that too far out and whacky? More whacky than using your own shadow?

In the miraculous I think there is a whole lot we (the Charismatic movement) still have to learn. Even though we have the Spirit, we don't have anything close to the account in Romans 5 where "All the apostles performed many signs and wonders ... sick people were brought from miles around ... all who were brought got healed" (MikeBigg paraphrase)

The Charismatic movement is stilll young - many of its pioneers are still alive. They took heat from the established church when they were discovering the things of the Spirit. And I bet they got a lot of stuff wrong. Maybe. Big maybe, but maybe we are on the path of re-discovering something of the miraculous and healing and signs and wonders. Maybe. Maybe, like many pioneers they make mistakes and maybe, like most Bible pioneers they are not people we would chose.

I was listening to a message by Randy Clark last night - he said that seeing someone healed is not evidence of correct theology. Don't get your theology from them. On the other hand, you won't get much help with a healing ministry from theologians.

In a small way, I do see people healed (someone got healed by text message the other night - now that isn't in the Bible!), I have had what I believe were angelic visitations and I know personally others who have had them too. I've all but stopped posting my healing stories now because they aren't received well. I'm sure others are the same. I think its a shame because testimonies help feed faith which leads to more.

Kind regards,

Mike

I understand, yet anomolies are not the norm. I see alot of soundness in Acts, that I don't see coming from many that I speak of, I mean we got paul concerned about church order in Corinth, and that was just tongues, prophecy, standard stuff, what would he say about all this silly stuff I speak of?

I mean, can't we say, that signs are also for the unbelievers, and a squirt gun justs feeds the perception they have, of the "goofy Charismatic's".

Could the guy heal without the squirter?


likewise, we see carnal people healing, even some that were in deep sin, but, but it's because God in his grace, still healed. Is God validating the sin? No, so why do we have to think he is validating the gun? Or the Catholic doctrine, of the healing catholic Priest, who may use rosary beads while healing?

So we see mercy, but maybe not the validation of rosary beads, or squirt guns.


Same as the OP, just because there is stuff in the Bible, does that always mean that all we see is of God?

Thanks for your post, frog.

 

[Yitzchak]

To speak a prophesy is one thing, to speak your opinion is another. When prophesying a believer is speaking what God has told them to say. There is a high bar there to meet. One must ensure that is what God is saying, even by faith. I am willing to give someone new to it some grace, but like I said, after too many times being wrong about what you are saying, it is time to hang up that mantle, you are not prophesying.

And whether or not I agree with what someone is prophesying is not the issue, it come down to verifiable truth, either they are right or wrong about what they are saying. If it can't be verified, I tend to doubt it unless they have a proven track record.

This post makes a lot of sense. It sure would cut down on the confusion if people who found themselves in over their head would step down from their position or role.

The Bible warns against placing a novice into leadership too quickly. I think a lot of the scandals have been that simple. It is just novices in the faith who have gotten in over their head and don't handle it well. The people involved may even have been gifted and called to that position. But they were exalted too quickly into their role.

If people would step back when they find themselves in over their head , I think it would save the Christian world a lot of embarrassing scandals.

 

[TillICollapse]

To speak a prophesy is one thing, to speak your opinion is another. When prophesying a believer is speaking what God has told them to say. There is a high bar there to meet. One must ensure that is what God is saying, even by faith. I am willing to give someone new to it some grace, but like I said, after too many times being wrong about what you are saying, it is time to hang up that mantle, you are not prophesying.

And whether or not I agree with what someone is prophesying is not the issue, it come down to verifiable truth, either they are right or wrong about what they are saying. If it can't be verified, I tend to doubt it unless they have a proven track record.

I personally think that when someone is *trying really hard* to prophesy .... the, "I really need to practice hearing God," etc ... what they are actually doing without realizing it (yet) is attempting to learn discernment of the spirits. They are attempting to get information from somewhere, and they are as yet unable to fully identify the sources.

 

[BenAdam]

This post makes a lot of sense. It sure would cut down on the confusion if people who found themselves in over their head would step down from their position or role.

The Bible warns against placing a novice into leadership too quickly. I think a lot of the scandals have been that simple. It is just novices in the faith who have gotten in over their head and don't handle it well. The people involved may even have been gifted and called to that position. But they were exalted too quickly into their role.

If people would step back when they find themselves in over their head , I think it would save the Christian world a lot of embarrassing scandals.

Wisdom.

There is no dishonor in being wrong if your heart is right. We all can learn and grow. Even the young Timothy who was in a position of leadership was under the tutelage of Paul.

How might have the Todd Bentley fiasco panned out if he had humbly submitted to Godly authority and chastisement about his ministry and temptations?

 

[BenAdam]

I personally think that when someone is *trying really hard* to prophesy .... the, "I really need to practice hearing God," etc ... what they are actually doing without realizing it (yet) is attempting to learn discernment of the spirits. They are attempting to get information from somewhere, and they are as yet unable to fully identify the sources.

Although I think that could be the case at times, I think sometimes people are just wrong, the real problems come in when they become "sure" of their gifts and then they are open to all sorts of deception.

 

[BenAdam]

BTW, I am not speaking from a lay perspective. There have been times that I have given prophecy and been wrong and times I have been right. It has helped me distinguish between the 2. God also at times gives me interpretations of dreams and I am very cautious to do it unless I am sure of what God is saying.

 

[K2K]

by rthe way, the op asks a good question...Just because miralces are in the BIble, does that mean everyone gets a free ride, just because they say miracles are in the Bible? Does jesus warn of false signs and wonders, as well as Paul?

So qagain, with all due respect, if you moved from the personal, into the scriptural, we could have a rather fine chat...

be blessed, your bro frog.

It is scriptural to hear the Lord. It is also scriptural to have miralces following around believers. Certainly it is also scriptural to have false signs and wonders following non-believers. Yet it is scriptural that nobody says Jesus Christ is Lord expect by the Spirit of God.

If Jesus Christ is a Lord, and a Lord is someone who gives instructions, then Jesus Christ must be giving each of us personally instructions, because it is also scriptural that He will send the Spirit who says what He hears.

The problem I have is when people want to post about the Scriptures but never have anything from Him who is supposed to be with them. That's a problem!! Is He their Lord if they don't hear from Him? And if they do hear from Him, who come they never say what it is? It is also scriptural to shout on the house top what is whispered in your ear.

So frankly, I am not so concerned about those claiming to hear from Jesus Christ, thought perhaps they don't check the spirit they are hearing from, as I am concerned about those never claiming to hear from Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit.

That said: It is appropriate to wonder if what they say is from the Lord. Of course if we who know the Lord wonder about it, we certainly will ask the Lord about it. Then it is back to what we hear Him tell us.

So with all due respect, we need to move from the scriptual into the personal, and not the other way around!!!

The scriptures are suppose to lead us to the way of salvation through Jesus Christ. That is spritual!

2 Tim 3:15 ... you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

I'm think that if we all wound up with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ we could all share what He is personally doing for us. Isn't that called fellowship?

 

[MikeBigg]

I understand, yet anomolies are not the norm. I see alot of soundness in Acts, that I don't see coming from many that I speak of, I mean we got paul concerned about church order in Corinth, and that was just tongues, prophecy, standard stuff, what would he say about all this silly stuff I speak of?

I mean, can't we say, that signs are also for the unbelievers, and a squirt gun justs feeds the perception they have, of the "goofy Charismatic's".

Could the guy heal without the squirter?

I'm sure he could - he had a "successful" (whatever that may mean) healing ministry beforehand, but what about what he learned from that - I can see so many lessons in that for those involved in healing.

kikewise, we see carnal people healing, even some that were in deep sin, but, but it's because God in his grace, still healed. Is God validating the sin? No, so why do we have to think he is validating the gun?

Healing is a grace gift - it cannot be earned. At no point should anyone think that just because someone sees healings that their life is right. It might not be any "righter" than yours or mine. A lesson from the heroes of the faith is that God uses broken people to accomplish His purposes.

God was not validating the water pistol, but His word and the expression of authority of His co-worker.

Or the Catholic doctrine, of the healing catholic Priest, who may use rosary beads while healing?

So we see mercy, but maybe not the validation of rosary beads, or squirt guns.

I can't really comment on the rosary beads, I'm not sure how they came to be used.

Same as the OP, just because there is stuff in the Bible, does that always mean that all we see is of God?

But is all of what we see anti-God?

The guy who kicked people when praying for healing (deliberately not mentioning his name as it only starts arguments) was, in my opinion, using that as a way to express his authority in healing. I absolutely don't agree with what he did. I think it was misplaced and misguided. However, people got healed from that sometimes. What are we to make of that? God's grace, yes but also, maybe, there is something to learn about what we have in us in Kingdom terms and how we are responsible in some way to do something in order to see healings. Well, big fat maybe, but there does seem to be something in that, based on experience and observation.

Thanks for your post, frog.

Your welcome, and thanks for your gracious reply.

Regards,

Mike

 

[K2K]

I get it - People who say they hear from God don't always have it right!!

But do people that never hear from God ever have it right??