Can I have a head count.

[Sabian]

Who all is a MJ here?
I'm not sure if the warning posts apply to me or not?
I'm kinda confused on exactly what a MJ is?
I do not concider myself an MJ.
Because of Gen 11:4.
Messeanic Jew just seems like another name man has made up
to call himself. Might as well say your Catholic.
Is there really a difference?
Can you explain it to me?
The reason I post here is because there are people here that believe
that Torah should be learned and applied.
And that YAHSHUA is the WORD made FLESH
I do not care what you call yourself.
Hope you don't care If I just say
I am a Child of YAH and so are YOU!!!

 

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Maybe we should say those that believe in Yeshua and keeping Torah are welcome to post here in the Messianic Judaism forum no matter what you call yourself. IMHO.

The warning is for those who are obviously ones who don't believe in keeping Torah(Instructions of YHVH, Commandments) that are posting comments in the only Forum that we who are learning to keep Torah and also those who do keep all that they can considering that there isn't a Temple.

The difference is that Christianity has been teaching that we are free from keeping the Laws of YHVH.
Well I have a thing or two to say about this. Aren't we all legalistic(Since this word is so used in not wanting to keep YHVH's Torah) in terms that we all live UNDER LAWS made by MAN? Shall we also figure we are free from MAN's LAWS as well? What is so wrong in the Instructions that YHVH gave to Moses to live a life dedicated to YHVH? Also what to and not to eat. What Feasts(Holidays) to keep. What day to keep Holy before YHVH. ETC.

Again, shall we forsake YHVH's Laws and keep MAN's Laws? How about MAN's Doctrines that override YHVH's?

I am a child of YHVH or YAH if that is satisfactory

Shalom,

Tag

 

[Sabian]

Sojeru,
You quoted this We cannot just recieve every person that is there and "seems" to be on a side, good or bad or nothing(indifferent)

Now that is what I thought when I started this thread.

 

[Henaynei]

I am a Messianic Gerah Toshav - a non-Jewish woman who follows Torah (and quite often the Oral Traditions) and the G-d of Torah and is ever grateful for the sacrifice He made to cover my failures in obeying His instructions.

 

[simchat_torah]

Who all is a MJ here?

most here including myself. Though all may not be messianic Jews... most here adhere to messianic jewish principles.

Basically, the Torah (which is the essence of the messiah) is yet to be ahdered to as expressed through the Jewish religion.

I'm not sure if the warning posts apply to me or not?

So far, I don't think so. However, instead of making multiple threads about G-d's name, ect... you might want to keep them together. It kinda clogs up the forum with several threads about the same topic.

I'm kinda confused on exactly what a MJ is?

I think I breifly touched on that a moment ago. There are others who would be better at defining it than I. Essentially, Messianic Judaism is the Judaism + Messiah. That's about as basic as it gets. A messianic Jew is a Jew by ancestory/bloodline that accepts Y'shua as the messiah.

I do not concider myself an MJ.

That is fine. You are still allowed to post here and ask questions. If you are saying you are not a messianic Jew, yet adhere to the messianic faith then I believe you may debate here...however, if you fall into a different category of the christian expression then I believe that you should not debate but can still raise questions and discuss with us.

Messeanic Jew just seems like another name man has made up
to call himself. Might as well say your Catholic.
Is there really a difference?

Big difference. G-d defined "jew" in the bible. The term was continued in the NT. Catholocism traditionally is a religion perpetuated by man (the preceeding councils, the pope, etc). Though catholocism would argue that the bible justifies this, essentially it is not defined explicitly by name in the Bible.

Messianic Judaism is the only form of christianity that can hold that claim.... and it's title then was: Netzarim (or messianic jews... the sect of Judaism at the time of the NT).

The reason I post here is because there are people here that believe
that Torah should be learned and applied.
And that YAHSHUA is the WORD made FLESH

Great. Then join with us in discussing such topics.

I do not care what you call yourself.

Just be careful that you do not express antisemitism or replacement theology. Neither of those two things will be tolerated on these forums.

Hope you don't care If I just say
I am a Child of YAH and so are YOU!!!

Don't mind a 'tall. We all are children of Hashem.

shalom and shalom.
yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

By the way, there are many... such as Henaynei, who have attempted to convert to Judaism. But because of the 'rejection of Jesus' included in part of the conversion process they have been unallowed to convert.

Who were the ones collected at the foot of the mountain anyway but an ecclectic group from all across the globe.

I have been fighting in my mind how to respond to those who want to convert but are not allowed. Do I consider them as Jews in the heart? It's a tough topic.

ahhh... I'm getting off topic. heheh

 

[Henaynei]

A messianic Jew is a Jew by ancestory/bloodline that accepts Y'shua as the messiah.

I agree with this as far as it goes but would add a further qualification: "and follows Torah."

There are a great number of Jews in the church who have submitted to the Messiahship of "Jesus" and taken on the Hellenistic culture. The most common term for them is Hebrew Christian. Hebrew Christians are often quite contrary to Torah observance.

 

[Henaynei]

By the way, there are many... such as Henaynei, who have attempted to convert to Judaism. But because of the 'rejection of Jesus' included in part of the conversion process they have been unallowed to convert.

Ah, yes, but the real test is what such as we *do* with that "rejection." Do we go out and create another flavor/denomination that grants us wannabes a blanket imprimatur as Jews, or do we stay the course, trusting HaShem and knowing that Judaism has traditionally laid significant barriers to conversion and had very good reasons for so doing? Traditionally, even those that the rabbis do eventually agree to convert have to be firmly discouraged and refused at least three times. I will admit that it has been more than three times for me :0) So, as for me, I'll "keep knocking on Heaven's door."

However, I need to come clean and tell you that *I* have laid some barriers to my own coversion. If I had been willing to accept a reform or even conservative conversion I could have had one by now. Such a Messianic conversion is not all that hard to come by these days, even a non-Messianic one where they tacitly agree to not bring the "Jesus" question up. For me, after years of studying, I would not be agreeable to less than an "orthodox" conversion. That is a conversion that does it "G-d's way." By that I mean that in scripture becoming part of Israel, becoming a Jew meant taking on the cloak of Torah. It was so at the foot of Mt. Sinai and I believe that it is still so in G-d's view.

So here is my barrier, my "fleece" if you will: it would have to be an Orthodox Messiainc conversion, by a truly Orthodox Messianic Rabbi, with a Beit Din of Orthodox Messianic men of historically firm and knowledgable orthodox lifestyle.

In the mean time, I struggle to learn all I can and implement a bit more of Torah in my life choices at each turn.

Who were the ones collected at the foot of the mountain anyway but an ecclectic group from all across the globe.

You are quite right in what you imply. Scripture says they were "a mixed multitude." Let's face, it they weren't a bunch of Jewish Torah t'zadekhs under the chupah of Mt. Sinai. While there is plenty of proof that much of Torah was known prior to Mt. Sinai, and had been for many hundreds of years, I bet significant numbers of Israel had been following the Egyptian gods during that 400 years of slavery. Just remember how quickly and easily they turned to the golden calf. The judgement of the plagues was meant as a lesson as much to the Jews as to the Egyptians.

I have been fighting in my mind how to respond to those who want to convert but are not allowed. Do I consider them as Jews in the heart? It's a tough topic.

I appreciate that such thoughts have even entered into your thought processes - :0) It is encouraging.

 

[KelsayDL]

The subject of converting to judaism has been perking my interest as of late. Whats the correct word proselawhatatizing?

I didn't know until reading this thread that denying Yeshua was included in the process. How unfortunate.

Do they also need to renounce Bar Kochba?

Is it rabbinic tradition or is it taught by God that one needs to formally convert to embrace Torah?

 

[simchat_torah]

I agree with this as far as it goes but would add a further qualification: "and follows Torah."

This is something I've been weighing in my mind. Does the rejection of Torah denote one's loss of 'jewish' racial ties? I don't think so. Granted, they are no longer a part of Judaism, but they are still the chosen people.

For example, there are literally hundereds of prophecies throughout the Torah/Tenach where we know that the Jews will falter and leave Torah... and then return to walk in righteousness again. Does that mean that while they were away from the Torah that they were no longer Jews?

doubtful.

debateable? yes. Doubtful? absolutely.

Do we go out and create another flavor/denomination that grants us wannabes a blanket imprimatur as Jews

That's something I despise personally. It seperates and causes a chasm and leads to antisemitism. For example, if you look at Ya'acov's (Jame's) decision in Acts 15 you will clearly see that he instructed them to continue going to synagouge on the Sabbath. I think that in part HaShem knew of the coming split (christianity vs. Judaism) and wanted to rectify this situation before hand by encouraging the people to not split off and make another religion/group.

They were to continue worshipping together.

If I had been willing to accept a reform or even conservative conversion I could have had one by now.

The Rabbi at my synagouge is 'conservodox' himself... hehe. Our synagouge is conservative, but he does orthodox conversions. In fact, after the year's time is up, he will drive the converter to Chicago before an Orthodox Beit Din to hold the ceremonies. He holds good standing with them as he attended an Orthodox Yeshiva.

it would have to be an Orthodox Messiainc conversion, by a truly Orthodox Messianic Rabbi, with a Beit Din of Orthodox Messianic men of historically firm and knowledgable orthodox lifestyle.

Ok. A tough set of requirements, but I think I definately know someone who fits your bill... lol, you're gonna laugh when I tell you this:

I know of an Orthodox (well, Chassidic actually) Rabbi who is on a Beit Din in Orange County, and he is what you call a 'hidden' messianic.

No joke.

It's been some time since I've talked with him via email, but we used to be pretty good friends. I'm not sure if I still have his email or not, but I'll have to look through my account and see if I can find it.

He was truly a fascinating man. He had his simcha through the chassidic, he still wears the big ole black hat, and is a Rabbi. No one in his community knows that he's orthodox... he'd quickly be rejected I'm sure.

And then I have another friend who I still do keep in touch with. He too had his simcha through an Orthdox Yeshiva. He was even an Orthdox Rabbi. However, he didn't keep his faith in the Messiah such a secret and ended up being rejected by the Beit Din. He now leads a messianic group in California. I believe he too performs conversions as well.

He is one of the wisest men I know, and has studied the Messiah in Kabbalah for several years.

hehe, anyway just let me know if you want to get in touch with either of these men.

But hey, look at the bright side...
You're a girl so when you do decide to go through conversion all you have to do is get dunked in some water and not get your pee pee poked with a needle or wacked off.


Shalom Achoti!
Yafet.

 

[simchat_torah]

The subject of converting to judaism has been perking my interest as of late. Whats the correct word proselawhatatizing?

A proselyte is a convert. A proselyte is not to be treated as a convert, but as a Jew. However, they are a convert. The next generation (their children) are not considered converts but full out Jews.

I didn't know until reading this thread that denying Yeshua was included in the process. How unfortunate.

Yes, it is common practice. I don't think it has become halacha, but it is common practice none the less.

What's even more shocking is that some messianics were going through the conversion not having any problems rejecting 'jesus' (not the shocking part) by secretly believing in 'Yeshua'. So now (here's the shocking part) some Beit Din groups will actually ask the convert to reject Yeshua as well.... just to cover their bases.

Do they also need to renounce Bar Kochba?

Nope. Not any of the other false messiahs. Only Yeshua.

Is it rabbinic tradition or is it taught by God that one needs to formally convert to embrace Torah?

Well, it's rabbinic tradition to be honest, however it is argued that from a Torah standpoint one must be Jewish in order to observe Torah (I disagree).


With all of the above said... I must retract some if by stating that today there is a new wave coming in Judaism whereby a messianic could convert... as long as they don't accept the trinity. I don't think that this has been done yet by a Beit Din, however it is being argued by leading Rabbis throughout the world.

As the argument stands, one is not rejected from being Jewish by simply following a 'false messiah'. In otherwords, they can keep their Jewish identity and follow Yeshua. However, they can not say that he was YHVH in the flesh, or accept the trinity as that goes against Jewish principles.

Shalom and Shalom.
yafet.

 

[Henaynei]

This is something I've been weighing in my mind. Does the rejection of Torah denote one's loss of 'jewish' racial ties? I don't think so. Granted, they are no longer a part of Judaism, but they are still the chosen people.

What about G-d saying repeatedly that those that do such things will "be cut off from My people?"

For example, there are literally hundereds of prophecies throughout the Torah/Tenach where we know that the Jews will falter and leave Torah... and then return to walk in righteousness again. Does that mean that while they were away from the Torah that they were no longer Jews?

doubtful.

debateable? yes. Doubtful? absolutely.

That might depend on which of the several definations of Jewish one was using/discussing. Are "cultural" Jews still "G-d's first born?" - what about "religious" Jews, or "national" Jews? Starts to get sticky.....

That's something I despise personally. It seperates and causes a chasm and leads to antisemitism. For example, if you look at Ya'acov's (James') decision in Acts 15 you will clearly see that he instructed them to continue going to synagouge on the Sabbath. I think that in part HaShem knew of the coming split (christianity vs. Judaism) and wanted to rectify this situation before hand by encouraging the people to not split off and make another religion/group.

They were to continue worshipping together.

I agree but that is EXACTLY what several of the recent more voracious movements in the MJ movement are!!

The Rabbi at my synagouge is 'conservodox' himself... hehe. Our synagouge is conservative, but he does orthodox conversions. In fact, after the year's time is up, he will drive the converter to Chicago before an Orthodox Beit Din to hold the ceremonies. He holds good standing with them as he attended an Orthodox Yeshiva.

WOW - what a mench!

Ok. A tough set of requirements, but I think I definately know someone who fits your bill... lol, you're gonna laugh when I tell you this:

I know of an Orthodox (well, Chassidic actually) Rabbi who is on a Beit Din in Orange County, and he is what you call a 'hidden' messianic.

No joke.

It's been some time since I've talked with him via email, but we used to be pretty good friends. I'm not sure if I still have his email or not, but I'll have to look through my account and see if I can find it.

He was truly a fascinating man. He had his simcha through the chassidic, he still wears the big ole black hat, and is a Rabbi. No one in his community knows that he's orthodox... he'd quickly be rejected I'm sure.

And then I have another friend who I still do keep in touch with. He too had his simcha through an Orthdox Yeshiva. He was even an Orthdox Rabbi. However, he didn't keep his faith in the Messiah such a secret and ended up being rejected by the Beit Din. He now leads a messianic group in California. I believe he too performs conversions as well.

He is one of the wisest men I know, and has studied the Messiah in Kabbalah for several years.

hehe, anyway just let me know if you want to get in touch with either of these men.

YES YES YES, please :0)

But hey, look at the bright side...

You're a girl so when you do decide to go through conversion all you have to do is get dunked in some water and not get your pee pee poked with a needle or wacked off.

LOL you have such a romantic poetic streak in you!!!

Looking forward to hearing about your emails !!!

 

[simchat_torah]

YES YES YES, please :0)

heh, which one? The one in California I can get you in touch with by this evening... the other, I'm not sure if I could track him down. I'd have to search through old emails and see if I could get ahold of him somehow.

LOL you have such a romantic poetic streak in you!!!

Now I know you're being sarcastic and all...

hehe, but I really am a hopeless romantic at heart.



shalom,
yafet.

 

[Henaynei]

heh, which one? The one in California I can get you in touch with by this evening... the other, I'm not sure if I could track him down. I'd have to search through old emails and see if I could get ahold of him somehow.

Is the one in Orange county in Florida??

I am in Florida and for legal reasons I can't move to California for several years. I could, if need be and funds are provided by HaSham, make one or two trips to CA. but doubt that would surfice with a rabbi doing conversions.

So, if you don't mind too much, could we try for the one in Florida first??

Now I know you're being sarcastic and all...

hehe, but I really am a hopeless romantic at heart.

Sarcastic?? Me?? Nay! What is unromantic about wacking it off?? [evil grin]


Many blessings upon your head and upon your house!!

Shalom
Henaynei

 

[Sabian]

Shalom
Henaynei

We live in the Keys right now how far away are you from Isamorada?</FONT></FONT></FONT>

 

[simchat_torah]

orange county CA.... sorry sista.

Oh, sabian... Islamorada is one of my favorite keys. My family used to go to the keys every year (we have lots of family in miami)

 

[Henaynei]

orange county CA.... sorry sista.

Oh, sabian... Islamorada is one of my favorite keys. My family used to go to the keys every year (we have lots of family in miami)

LOL - then whichever rabbi you are most likely to be able to contact with the least trouble to your gracious self - may G-d choose well through you!

Islamorada - my hubby did some time as a street musician with a guitar there shortly after his salvation experience with G-d back in the 70's. Got saved hitchhiking down Alligator Alley with a red-haired hippie evangelist reading Mattityahu (a.k.a. Matthew back then) when work on a dude horse ranch in the area dried up.

We now live in the Tampa Bay Area :0) He writes books and makes MJ teaching tapes.

Pardon my intrusion - quite proud of him

 

[simchat_torah]

Why doesn't he post here?

(yafet begins grumbling)

 

[LindaS]

Good evening, is there room for a Messianic Israelite here?

 

[LindaS]

Since I am new I am not sure if there is anybody here or if my question is not going to be answered. How do I determine this?