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Can God Tell Time?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, May 11, 2002.

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  1. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To all:

    Here I popped into this thread to get some insight, and instead it's a haggle over "near" and "far."

    What about references in the NT about "three o'clock"?

    I thought clocks came along in medieval times!

    Midafternoon, sundown, daybreak, I can see. But "three o'clock"?


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  2. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    Hey VOW, thanks for stopping by. Believe me, there's a great deal more to preterism then "near" or "far". If there is anything you want to bring up then feel free to post. We'll be here.

    In Christ,

    Acts6:5
     
  3. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Acts:

    I'm not gonna worry about preterism or any other "ism." The End will arrive whether I have predicted it correctly or not.

    I'm just curious about the "three o'clock."


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  4. Hi Vow :wave: Would you mind showing us from the Bible what end you are looking for to arrive :confused:
     
  5. One of the things I really love about God's word is if one disarees it still does not stop it from being true. God
    never allows ones human abilities to disagree to stop the truth in his word.

    This was true in Jesus's day and it is still true today. :clap:
     
  6. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Manifestation:

    The only "end" (besides the one I sit on) would be the one in the Nicene Creed, "We believe that He (Jesus) will come again in Glory to judge the living and the dead, and His Kingdom will have no end."

    That tells me that Jesus is handling it; that is fine for me.

    Now, about three o'clock...


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  7. The creeds are made by un-inspired men and can have errors in them. However the Bible is the inspired word of God and had no errors within and the "end" is the last days of the old covenant. Before you can have a covenant of grace there must be an "end" to the old covenant world of the law.

    Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1 Corinthians 10:11)

    According to one who knows about "the end" better then anyone today the "inspired Apostle Paul" the "ends of the word" was upon "them." (our admonition). The people living "then" not "now."

    All these thing happened to "their Jewish Fathers" as ensample. Not our Greek or Gentile fathers who are not even mention anywere in the Bible.
     
  8. To whom were the letters of the New Testament addressed? Who wrote theses letters? What was the situation that caused the need for theses letters to have been written? How did the readers understand what written?

    These are such basic questions whose answers can make the letters so much easier to correctly understand. There is a course taught on this in the universities called "hermeneutics."

    This is a big word that I understand to mean, "just use common sense." Use the same principles in understanding the Bible as you would when reading any others letter. The course has great value. It helps one to consider the answers to the above question.

    The letters of the New Testament were not written to us. Before you scream, consider what the letters say, such as to Timothy, to Titus, to the Romans, to the church at Galatia, to the seven churches of Aais etc.. And how John say he was "their brother" and "companion" in "tribulation." Rev. 1:9

    These were letters written to the first century people and to first century churches about first century situations and events. (Matthew 24:1-3; Luke 21:21-22) God has preserved these letter for us today for our learning, 1 Kings 10:8 instruction, 2 Timothy 3:16 and comfort, John 14:27 but they were not written to us. They were written to first century people. (Acts 2:36-40)

    We are, in effect, reading someone else's mail. When we read these letters, we must understand them as they were written. When the writer told the reader that those events would happen "soon," Romans 13:11-12; James 5:8-9 he was talking about events that were about to happen at that time in the first century.

    We have absolutely no problem understanding this principle when reading the "Old Testament," then why is it such a big problem understanding it in the New Testament? :scratch:

    We need to read the New Testament letters from a first century perspective. The passages come to life with a fresh new view when we view them thought the eyes of the first century people.

    What was the writer trying to convey to them? Many of the saints were being troubled, and put through persecution, and tribulation, by the Jews leaders. (1 Thess. 1-9) How were they to understand the comforting words the writer was trying to convey?

    That the Lord Jesus would be "revealed from heaven" with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them who did not know God.

    Traditional views often nullify our understanding of God's message. The common practice today is to tear these passages out of their historic setting and to try to apply them to the year 2002. Many preachers expound on how these words say that theses events are to happen "soon" possibly this very night. They fail to explain that the apostles in the first century were talking to the first century people in that generation Romans 13:11-12 not in our time 2002 years way off in the future. :confused:

    We are blessed today because Christ kept His word and brought about the events when He said he would, in their generation, before some of them died. He did not fail. :clap:

    Today, we live with Christ in His kingdom. We can be in Christ and He can be in us. We share with all people the blessings promised to Abraham. It was through Abraham that all nations were to be blessed. This was accomplished through Christ who was of Abraham's seed. We have the salvation promised through Abraham.

    We are blessed with "completed salvation." We will never see death. God's plan of salvation did not get knocked off track, get delayed, or fail as so many would have you to believe.

    He did not inset a church age to make up for His supposed failure to complete His work in the first century. It was not an afterthought, How important was the church? He purchased it with Hid blood. Christ accomplished exactly what He said He would, when He said He would. We serve an awesome God. :)
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi VOW, could you post specific verses?

    Thanks
     
  10. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To P70:

    Here's one. Matthew 27:45-46
    Thanks.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Right on VOW, I got it!

    "3 o'clock" is a translators take.

    You are correct that the language of "o'clock" was non existant in Biblical times.

    Check out "Youngs Literal Translation" of the same verses. This is an excellent, word for word translation of the original greek, without any "modern linguistic liberties" taken, as is the case in the translation you quoted:

    Matt 27:45-46 YLT:
    45 And from the sixth hour darkness came over all the land unto the ninth hour, 46 and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?'


    As you can see, the term 3'oclock was in fact a translators later addition.

    Hope this helps!
    P70
     
  12. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To P70:

    Okay, now how about HOURS? You still need a CLOCK for "hours"!!!


    Peace and puzzlement,
    ~VOW
     
  13. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    I always thought you could get away with a sundial to divide time. I think the concept goes *way* back.
     
  14. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Seebs:

    Oh, there were time-measuring devices in Palestine during that period. Sundials were used, and so were "hour" glasses. And the farmers had water clocks they used to time the irrigation flowing through the network of ditches to their crops.

    Those are all VERY non-standardized, though, and "hour" is quite a definite span of time. Now, I DO know that when the first mechanical clocks were invented in Europe in the beginning of the Middle Ages, the entire span of DAYLIGHT was divided into a certain number of hours. Thus, an "hour" in winter was considerably shorter than an "hour" in summer.

    So, I guess my question would be, just what WAS an "hour" in Palestine during the time of Jesus?

    (I have a sneaking suspicion it has to do with geometry, but I'd like to know for sure. Fascinating topic, huh?)


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  15. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

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    I don't think that God's time is anything like our time. We can't try to mold God to ourselves; we are to mold ourselves to him. His ways are not our ways.

    In passing, I think in the Old Testament, a year was like, 10 months or something.
     
  16. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    <sigh>

    So this question will drift into the Great Beyond, and I'll never learn about how the people of Jerusalem figured out "hours."


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  17. Helaman

    Helaman Member

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    I believe God does not view time in the chronological way we do. To Him, there is no time, as hard as this is to comprehend, if even possible to comprehend. Thoughts?
     
  18. G4m

    G4m Veteran

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    P70,

    I haven't given your post the time it deserves yet. However, I would consider the following verse shows that time statements are sometimes allegorical:


    Zephaniah 1
    14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
     
  19. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    It all depends on which "day of the Lord" Zephaniah is talking about in this passage.

    There have been several.

    In reality, this particular "day of the Lord" event that Zephaniah was fortelling was the overthrow of Israel and carrying away into Babylonian captivity, that was in fact "Near" in time when Zephaniah fortold of it.

    So, if God as you said "sometimes" uses time in an allegorical fashion, Zephaniah 1 is NOT one of the places in scripture He does it.

    Zephaniah 1 is a good read, BTW, for grasping the prophetic use of apocalyptic language.
    This is describing a local judgement upon an individual nation, but notice thte language used:

    2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD. 3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.........

    14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. 17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

    The Babylonians were the instrument of Gods wrath upon Israel during this particular "day of the Lord", but notice who takes credit for the destruction. Jehovah Himself is said to personally "devour the whole land with fire". It is also said to be hearlded by a trumpet.

    This is a Cassic "day of the Lord" event folks.
    Local judgements of God using human armies as instruments of his wrath, described by the prophets as widspread, even global or universal catyclism, with God personally doing the damage.

    Why then, when we get to this same language in the NT, should we apply a polar opposite interpratation of the same language without any prior biblical precident to do so?
     
  20. parousia70

    parousia70 Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Yes I have thoughts....

    Are you saying that God is incapable of viewing Time in the chronologocal way we do? If so I would absolutely disagree.

    While scripture is clear that God is himself timeless, that nothing is near or far in time to God, scripture is also clear that when God says "I shalll make it rain 40 days", He absloutely understands and MEANS 40 "chronological" days, and when God said to Israel that they would be in captivity 70 years, He absolutely understands and MEANS 70 chronological EARTH years, and when God says an event is "far off", He absolutely understands and means "far off" in human perspective.

    Your notion that God views time differently than we humans is only true in the sense that He transcends time, and not that He is incapable of viewing and understanding the passage of time from our perspective. In fact, as it is plainly evident from scripture, when God is communicating with man using references to the passage of time, those statements are meant to be understood by how the passage of time relates to MAN, not how it relates to God.
     
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