Can God Create An Object Too Heavy For Him To Lift?

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, you need to understand it because you need to understand what you are talking about before actually talking about it because if you don't you can fall in the pit of delusional thinking, thinking that some things are like those imagined by you when they are completely opposite things.

Okay. Fine. You want to play it that way. You need to understand Plato, Nietzsche, Dawkins, Sagan, and Harris before actually talking about it because if you don't, then "you might think some things like those imagined by you when they are completely opposite things." I'll wait here while you go read.

 

[The Cadet]

You want me to prove it? You want me to prove that every person is born with a desire for divinity and for God?

Yes! You made the claim, either demonstrate that it is true or retract the claim.

Just look at every single culture, every single civilization, every single tribe that have existed in this world and you will see that every single one of them, everyone has believed in God/gods/entities, so belief in the supernatural is in the human heart from the very beginning. You put a man since a baby in the amazon jungle and by his maturity he would have hundreds of gods to believe in. The feeling is there, the universal approach towards divinity, towards the spiritual realm is there and existent.

It's called Apophenia. We are hardwired to see patterns that aren't there, and to anthropomorphize things that have no human thoughts or emotions.

 

[Wryetui]

Okay. Fine. You want to play it that way. You need to understand Plato, Nietzsche, Dawkins, Sagan, and Harris before actually talking about it because if you don't, then "you might think some things like those imagined by you when they are completely opposite things." I'll wait here while you go read.

Ok so I see that we are on completely different levels here. I did read the most famous western philisophers, all of them you mentioned and even more of those you didn't mention, in example Bertrand Rusell, and a lot of their workings actually made my faith grow stronger. You can check this light article that ensumes the very Orthodox position about them: http://www.asna.ca/resources/dawkins-delusion.pdf, please, read it, it is vital for you to understand our position regarding them.

I personally won't let atheist philosophers teach me of God, is like letting a policeman teach me of oncologic medicine, they are just people talking about a subject they don't know, but it's not like they are having some sort of idea, they really don't know it.

Did you read St. Symeon the New Theologian, St. Gregory Palamas, St. John Chrysostom, St. Dyonisius Pseudo-Aeropagitus, St. John of Krondstat, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nazianz, St. Chyril of Alexandria? What about letting people that know God talk about God?

I have read those philosophers and their works, and they even didn't adress my Church once, no one in the west actually knows orthodox theology, they just attack the "theology" of protestant or catholic churches, but we have here a very different world. I suggest you to read a book by a modern theologian called Vladimir Lossky: The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church.

 

[Wryetui]

Yes! You made the claim, either demonstrate that it is true or retract the claim.



It's called Apophenia. We are hardwired to see patterns that aren't there, and to anthropomorphize things that have no human thoughts or emotions.

It's called universal and instinctive religious approach. The fact that every person believes in some sort of divinity makes me think that humans really have some bond or innate re-ligare feeling, it just makes me think that we all came from the same God, the God of Israel, and we lost the connection, but the God desire is still there.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Ok so I see that we are on completely different levels here. I did read the most famous western philisophers, all of them you mentioned and even more of those you didn't mention, in example Bertrand Rusell, and a lot of their workings actually made my faith grow stronger. You can check this light article that ensumes the very Orthodox position about them: http://www.asna.ca/resources/dawkins-delusion.pdf, please, read it, it is vital for you to understand our position regarding them.

I personally won't let atheist philosophers teach me of God, is like letting a policeman teach me of oncologic medicine, they are just people talking about a subject they don't know, but it's not like they are having some sort of idea, they really don't know it.

No, sorry. I will not continue this conversation further until you have read the complete works of every person on my reading list. Otherwise, you are just "talking about a subject you don't know."

Did you read St. Symeon the New Theologian, St. Gregory Palamas, St. John Chrysostom, St. Dyonisius Pseudo-Aeropagitus, St. John of Krondstat, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nazianz, St. Chyril of Alexandria? What about letting people that know God talk about God?

Many people claim to know God. They also say quite different things about him. So why I should take the claims of your theologians more seriously than other theologians who likewise claim to know God?

I have read those philosophers and their works, and they even didn't adress my Church once, no one in the west actually knows orthodox theology, they just attack the "theology" of protestant or catholic churches, but we have here a very different world. I suggest you to read a book by a modern theologian called Vladimir Lossky: The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church.

I suggest you read Waking Up by Sam Harris.

 

[Wryetui]

No, sorry. I will not continue this conversation further until you have read the complete works of every person on my reading list. Otherwise, you are just "talking about a subject you don't know."

Many people claim to know God. They also say quite different things about him. So why I should take the claims of your theologians more seriously than other theologians who likewise claim to know God?

I suggest you read Waking Up by Sam Harris.

I refuse to read people talking about a god I don't believe in. I do not believe in the God those philisophers attack, I do not believe in that God because Orthodoxy's idea of God is something you never heard of, is something completely different and those atheist western philosophers do not know my God so they are not talking about the subject we two are talking, they are talking about a different god, that's why I told you to read that artcle that sums up very well our point of view.

Why would you listen to my theologians when they talk about God instead of those atheists? It depends, if you want to know something about the universe, you listen to an astrophisic scientist or to a countryside peasant? The difference between my theologians is that they talk about God from experience, from living in God and in His Church, they are not talking about some made up idea, but from their lived experience, from their sinless lived experience, from what they lived everyday.

You think the god those atheists attack is my God, or that christianity worldwide follow the same God, but that's untrue, the vision of God, the real seeing of God is very distorted there in the west, it's poisoned and corrupted and I am not surprised of all those atheists attacking that corrupted idea of god, but I keep telling you, the Orthodox Church is very far away from where you see things.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I refuse to read people talking about a god I don't believe in.

Yet that's precisely what you expect me to do. If you're not willing to do it, why should I?

Why would you listen to my theologians when they talk about God instead of those atheists? It depends, if you want to know something about the universe, you listen to an astrophisic scientist or to a countryside peasant? The difference between my theologians is that they talk about God from experience, from living in God and in His Church, they are not talking about some made up idea, but from their lived experience, from their sinless lived experience, from what they lived everyday.

So do the other theologians! My goodness, you sound like you've never interacted with other Christians outside your "one true church." You look down on them, but so what? They look down on you as well.

You think the god those atheists attack is my God, or that christianity worldwide follow the same God, but that's untrue, the vision of God, the real seeing of God is very distorted there in the west, it's poisoned and corrupted and I am not surprised of all those atheists attacking that corrupted idea of god, but I keep telling you, the Orthodox Church is very far away from where you see things.

Yes, you keep claiming this, but you always stop short of actually arguing for it. "It's different!," you insist. Yet from what I've seen of your posts, it's exactly the same, just with different branding.

 

[Wryetui]

I would declare this conversation as being over, you are not willing to understand, not positively willing to learn from what I can say, not even willing to listen to me, so there is nothing I can really do.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I would declare this conversation as being over, you are not willing to understand, not positively willing to learn from what I can say, not even willing to listen to me, so there is nothing I can really do.

I can only consider this an attempt at irony.

 

[The Cadet]

It's called universal and instinctive religious approach. The fact that every person believes in some sort of divinity

...But we don't. At least, I know I don't, and I know quite a few other people who claim they don't.

it just makes me think that we all came from the same God, the God of Israel, and we lost the connection, but the God desire is still there.

What an odd ad-hoc rationalization for the fact that we consistently reach different god conclusions! Indeed, no two unrelated cultures ever came up with a god concept that is the same. Many anthropomorphize the same entities - the sun, death, the harvest - but these anthropomorphizations are always fundamentally different. This is entirely consistent with deities being the result of apophenia, and completely inconsistent with there being one specific god and everyone having a built-in desire to know that god.

 

[MikeEnders]

But as a Christian, if you were asked this, how would you respond in a manner that doesn't refute God in any way?

Can God create an object too heavy for Him to lift?

By concentrating on what the word God implies necessarily - That he is not a man.

the "problem" that question proposes is not even applicable to God. It envisions God having to exert some kind of strength or muscle to lift up a rock. Thats a reference to man's kind of strength which God doesn't possess.Its beneath him. BOth Old and New testament portray God as the rule maker. the one who commands and it is done.

So if you put the question within the context of God it would be

"Can god make something that he could not command to obey his will?"

and the answer is no without any controversy.

 

[Dave-W]

No, it's not possible for God to do something that by definition is impossible.

There is a serious flaw in this answer.
You are limiting God, subjecting Him to the "laws" of logic. He created them and He can transcend them any time He wants to.

 

[Dave-W]

From a Christian standpoint, for me personally, I haven't been much experienced with controversy in a huge debate and this definitely stumped me. But as a Christian, if you were asked this, how would you respond in a manner that doesn't refute God in any way?

Can God create an object too heavy for Him to lift?

Probably yes. But I doubt very seriously He would ever do that because He would have to create a bigger universe just to house the thing.

 

[Albion]

There is a serious flaw in this answer.
You are limiting God, subjecting Him to the "laws" of logic. He created them and He can transcend them any time He wants to.

Except that these are NOT related to the laws of logic. There are some things that simply are impossible by the nature of the proposition. God cannot make a square circle because a circle cannot be a circle and also be square. It would be different if the idea were simply something we had not ever experienced but was not automatically impossible.

 

[Dave-W]

Except that these are NOT related to the laws of logic. There are some things that simply are impossible by the nature of the proposition. God cannot make a square circle because a circle cannot be a circle and also be square. It would be different if the idea were simply something we had not ever experienced but was not automatically impossible.

Who said God cannot make a square circle? Or a circular square? I am absolutely convinced He can. Omnipotence.

God is not limited to what we think is possible or not possible.

Matthew 19:26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 

[Albion]

Who said God cannot make a square circle?

It's a commonly used example, but I don't know who was the first to use it.

 

[Near]

Who said God cannot make a square circle? Or a circular square? I am absolutely convinced He can. Omnipotence.

God is not limited to what we think is possible or not possible.

Matthew 19:26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

The thing is, "all things" are possible with God. A "square-circle" is not a thing. What you have is two words, describing two different shapes.

There is also no such thing as a circular square, unless you mean a square with its edges rounded. If that's what is meant then here:

Can God cause himself to make it so he never existed?
Ans: no, because that isn't a thing. He is a necessary being, and when speaking of God, he must exist, which also means he must not, not exist.

Furthermore, God is omnipotent. He cannot make himself completely non-omnipotent.

 

[Amen247365]

From a Christian standpoint, for me personally, I haven't been much experienced with controversy in a huge debate and this definitely stumped me. But as a Christian, if you were asked this, how would you respond in a manner that doesn't refute God in any way?

Can God create an object too heavy for Him to lift?

God is omnipotent but he never contradicts himself, no one can ask God to do something like that.

 

[quatona]

There is a serious flaw in this answer.
You are limiting God, subjecting Him to the "laws" of logic. He created them and He can transcend them any time He wants to.

Demanding the privilege to make propositions "beyond logic" simply means demanding the privilege to talk nonsense and yet be taken seriously.

 

[Strathos]

This question has always struck me as silly and pointless.

Up there with "how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"