Can God Be Proved Mathematically?

Michie

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Some mathematicians have sought a logical proof for the existence of God. Here’s what they discovered

Who would have thought about God as an apt topic for an essay about mathematics? Don’t worry, the following discussion is still solidly grounded within an intelligible scientific framework. But the question of whether God can be proved mathematically is intriguing. In fact, over the centuries, several mathematicians have repeatedly tried to prove the existence of a divine being. They range from Blaise Pascal and René Descartes (in the 17th century) to Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (in the 18th century) to Kurt Gödel (in the 20th century), whose writings on the subject were published as recently as 1987. And probably the most amazing thing: in a preprint study first posted in 2013 an algorithmic proof wizardchecked Gödel’s logical chain of reasoning—and found it to be undoubtedly correct. Has mathematics now finally disproved the claims of all atheists?

Continued below.
Can God Be Proved Mathematically?
 

NormyFaithful

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My old Protestant pastor thought someone would prove "God exists" based on zero, which of course is the absolute negation of God.

I've got no idea how one would go about proving it though.
Wait, did he say this as an actual prediction he expected to happen, like the others? Or was this phrased as just his own personal opinion / ruminations on this?
 
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Bob Crowley

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Wait, did he say this as an actual prediction he expected to happen, like the others? Or was this phrased as just his own personal opinion / ruminations on this?
In his case, I think it was more than just his opinion. He was somewhat prophetic. Bear in mind that he died in January 1992, so he had no personal influence on the outcomes I've given below.

1. "I don't think your sister will live very long. I think she'll get leukemia." My sister died in 2005, aged 45, from Leukemia.

2. "I think (one of his son's names) will have a major health breakdown". The son mentioned had a stroke circa 1996.

3. Speaking shortly after the first Gulf War, "I think there'll be a second gulf war. The Americans will have had enough of Saddam Hussein and they'll get rid of him. But I think they'll lose a FEW men the next time", with a distinct emphasis on the word "few", meaning "more than a few" (about 4500 as it turned out).

4. "I think you'll become Catholic...." I became Catholic 1996/97.

5. "I think God intends to drive us out into the universe.... I think we'll learn to teleport". Obviously we're a long way from that, but the first successful quantum entanglement experiment took place in 1996, about 5 years after his prediction. If we learn to teleport, that will be the basis.

6. "I think you'll be doing a cleaning job for a short time. You won't like it much and you won't be doing it for long, but I think the Lord will just want you to hear about a ghost". Even I thought that one was a bit over the top, but fast forward to 2006 I did a cleaning job for a short time, didn't like it much, and heard about a ghost (a former manager who had committed suicide in the basement of the building back in the 1960's).

7. "I think there'll be a conspiracy against you (in relation to my then job). You'll make a silly mistake and they'll use that to get rid of you." I lost the then job in 1995, after I made a "silly mistake". I can't prove the conspiracy, but if there was, God knows who they were, rest assured.

9. "I think he (certain pastor) will get hold of this church after I'm gone, and wreck it! But he can't touch the people!" The said pastor got hold of the church almost the day after my old pastor died, and wrecked it! But he couldn't touch the people - most of them left the Presbyterian Church altogether.

10. "I think you'll play hockey again... You'll get Diabetes and you'll do it for the exercise." I wasn't interested in the least when he made the prediction, but in 2005 I was diagnosed with Diabetes, and I took up Masters Hockey again in 2008 mainly for the exercise. At the time he made the prediction, we had a gym under the church and I was fairly fit (typically an 8 km run followed by a gym workout).

There were other predictions some of which haven't happened yet, and obviously the prediction about the "proof of God" based on zero is one of them. But I think it will happen for the simple reason the only way he could see these other things was because God was telling him. In other words, I think God was telling him that someone would devise a proof of His existence based on zero.

I think it will happen sooner or later.
 
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NormyFaithful

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In his case, I think it was more than just his opinion. He was somewhat prophetic. Bear in mind that he died in January 1992, so he had no personal influence on the outcomes I've given below.
Were his prophecies always accompanied by the phrase "I think that"? I'd say that, since that phrase is also used by most people to express personal opinion rather than full certain futures (and in fact that's how most people use it in common language, and if one wanted to avoid sounding presumptuous or too certain, or wanted to avoid telling others explicitly this is a prophecy from the Lord, one would use less-certain sounding phrases that's otherwise used to express opinion), it seems plausible to ask whether your pastor sometimes used this phrase to express only his own opinion, because what else could he use to distinguish certain prophecy from mere personal opinion or prediction?

Like...it's not like everything he said was a prophecy. He certainly had personal opinions as distinct from prophecies, so...how did he express the former?
 
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WarriorAngel

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I could travel, if this doesn't make me ill... but to see the world without waiting or costs... YEP!

5. "I think God intends to drive us out into the universe.... I think we'll learn to teleport". Obviously we're a long way from that, but the first successful quantum entanglement experiment took place in 1996, about 5 years after his prediction. If we learn to teleport, that will be the basis.​
 
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WarriorAngel

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I could travel, if this doesn't make me ill... but to see the world without waiting or costs... YEP!

5. "I think God intends to drive us out into the universe.... I think we'll learn to teleport". Obviously we're a long way from that, but the first successful quantum entanglement experiment took place in 1996, about 5 years after his prediction. If we learn to teleport, that will be the basis.​
My daughter is in Texas now, and if she has my grandchildren... I'll be hoping for teleportation. :D
 
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Bob Crowley

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Were his prophecies always accompanied by the phrase "I think that"? I'd say that, since that phrase is also used by most people to express personal opinion rather than full certain futures (and in fact that's how most people use it in common language, and if one wanted to avoid sounding presumptuous or too certain, or wanted to avoid telling others explicitly this is a prophecy from the Lord, one would use less-certain sounding phrases that's otherwise used to express opinion), it seems plausible to ask whether your pastor sometimes used this phrase to express only his own opinion, because what else could he use to distinguish certain prophecy from mere personal opinion or prediction?

Like...it's not like everything he said was a prophecy. He certainly had personal opinions as distinct from prophecies, so...how did he express the former?
If you've had any experience with these sorts of spiritual matters, you'd know very well you can never be 100% certain if something is from God or the devil.

I asked him once "How do you (or how do I) know up front if a spiritual experience is from God or the devil?".

He thought for a minute and replied "You don't (know)". In other words if he made a prediction, then only time would tell if it was bonafide or not. So far he's had a 100% track record, except for a few that haven't happened YET.

As for expressing anything, we have to think it first.

Secondly human decision is involved. I didn't have to take up playing hockey again, or become Catholic for that matter. But I didn't set out to become Diabetic, which led to the decision to play hockey, and I also found I was getting some rather persistent images about becoming Catholic eg. whenever I drove past a Catholic Church, it would sort of loom out at me.

Part of his prediction about the hockey was that I'd start to move towards umpiring as I got older That's beginning to happen but once again my choice is involved. I was talking to another hockey player about this and I said "I don't have to do what he said". The player replied "Yes, but things seem to be moving in that direction".

Incidentally he also warned me way back circa 1990/91 about the pedophile crisis which would hit the church, saying "I think there's going to be a lot of them!" Sure enough there was, so i was warned beforehand and it didn't surprise me when they started to hit the media fan.

There's a prophecy about "the (virgin) will be with child", but Mary still had to give her consent. God didn't just steamroll over her opinion.

For myself I'd be suspicious of any alleged Christian "prophet" who was absolutely certain about his or her prophecies. I'd be more inclined to believe that they were possibly correct if they prefaced their "prediction" with "I think that ..." or "It seems to me ...".

I've had enough spiritual experiences myself to be wary of just assuming something is bona fide up front. I'm prepared to wait to see what happens. I may "think" something might happen, but I'll really believe it when I see it.
 
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WarriorAngel

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If you've had any experience with these sorts of spiritual matters, you'd know very well you can never be 100% certain if something is from God or the devil.

I asked him once "How do you (or how do I) know up front if a spiritual experience is from God or the devil?".

He thought for a minute and replied "You don't (know)". In other words if he made a prediction, then only time would tell if it was bonafide or not. So far he's had a 100% track record, except for a few that haven't happened YET.

As for expressing anything, we have to think it first.

Secondly human decision is involved. I didn't have to take up playing hockey again, or become Catholic for that matter. But I didn't set out to become Diabetic, which led to the decision to play hockey, and I also found I was getting some rather persistent images about becoming Catholic eg. whenever I drove past a Catholic Church, it would sort of loom out at me.

Part of his prediction about the hockey was that I'd start to move towards umpiring as I got older That's beginning to happen but once again my choice is involved. I was talking to another hockey player about this and I said "I don't have to do what he said". The player replied "Yes, but things seem to be moving in that direction".

Incidentally he also warned me way back circa 1990/91 about the pedophile crisis which would hit the church, saying "I think there's going to be a lot of them!" Sure enough there was, so i was warned beforehand and it didn't surprise me when they started to hit the media fan.

There's a prophecy about "the (virgin) will be with child", but Mary still had to give her consent. God didn't just steamroll over her opinion.

For myself I'd be suspicious of any alleged Christian "prophet" who was absolutely certain about his or her prophecies. I'd be more inclined to believe that they were possibly correct if they prefaced their "prediction" with "I think that ..." or "It seems to me ...".

I've had enough spiritual experiences myself to be wary of just assuming something is bona fide up front. I'm prepared to wait to see what happens. I may "think" something might happen, but I'll really believe it when I see it.
When the Isrealites were like 'Um, it scares us to hear the voice of the Lord...'
And the Lord said 'You judge well, so I will put my words in their mouth and if it comes to pass it was from me...'

If not, well, they were not accurate.
 
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Bob Crowley

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My daughter is in Texas now, and if she has my grandchildren... I'll be hoping for teleportation. :D

Australia is a big place as well! But unfortunately I don't think it will ever be as easy as "Beam me up, Scotty!"

In Quantum Computing and Entanglement experiments there's a lot of error in the proceedings.


Quantum computers require larger encodings

Given how fragile quantum states are to their environment, it is likely that large encodings will be needed. That is, hundreds if not thousands of qubits may be required to encode a single qubit state. As noted by Science.org, Google researchers believe it may be possible to sustain a qubit indefinitely by expanding error correction efforts across 1,000 qubits.


Although the experiment was successful, the rate of sending and receiving entangled photons described in the paper was still quite low. Of nearly 6 million entangled photon pairs generated by Micius each second, only one pair was detected at stations here on Earth.

If I wanted to be teleported to a space station, I'd want better odds than one chance in 6 million.

I suppose as technology improves the error correction will be less of an issue. But I think it might be a once in a lifetime event, with the transported person possibly needing a lot of advanced medical care on arrival to due to "errors" in transmission.

For the time being, I'd drive or fly to Texas if I were you.
 
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Michie

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My daughter is in Texas now, and if she has my grandchildren... I'll be hoping for teleportation. :D
Do you feel comfortable sharing what part? I used to live in TX too. :)
 
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NormyFaithful

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If you've had any experience with these sorts of spiritual matters, you'd know very well you can never be 100% certain if something is from God or the devil.

I asked him once "How do you (or how do I) know up front if a spiritual experience is from God or the devil?".

He thought for a minute and replied "You don't (know)". In other words if he made a prediction, then only time would tell if it was bonafide or not. So far he's had a 100% track record, except for a few that haven't happened YET.

As for expressing anything, we have to think it first.
To clarify what I meant - I wasn't asking whether the pastor in making his prophecies was expressing absolute certainty over them, but whether he also gave merely human opinions sometimes with the same phrase. To give an example - say you studied the political situation of a country for a time and have formed your own personal opinion about how things will develop, so you say "I think this country will collapse into civil war and will no longer be a unified single state". You're clearly not saying this because you had a revelation from God telling you this - you're simply giving your own thoughts after you mulled over it. People in general do this all the time for their own political opinions as to what they think will happen in their own country - it's simply natural human prediction. And many people also correctly analyse things such that their predictions end up being true without much surprise; I mean, that's what political commentators are paid to do.

So did the pastor also have his own natural human predictions & opinions on how things will go, which were in no way motivated by revelation from God but simple human analysis of things? If so, how was it distinguished from the times he said "I think that..." because he thought he was getting revelation from God, not just his own personal human opinion / analysis of things


Incidentally he also warned me way back circa 1990/91 about the pedophile crisis which would hit the church, saying "I think there's going to be a lot of them!" Sure enough there was, so i was warned beforehand and it didn't surprise me when they started to hit the media fan.

There's a prophecy about "the (virgin) will be with child", but Mary still had to give her consent. God didn't just steamroll over her opinion.

For myself I'd be suspicious of any alleged Christian "prophet" who was absolutely certain about his or her prophecies. I'd be more inclined to believe that they were possibly correct if they prefaced their "prediction" with "I think that ..." or "It seems to me ...".

I've had enough spiritual experiences myself to be wary of just assuming something is bona fide up front. I'm prepared to wait to see what happens. I may "think" something might happen, but I'll really believe it when I see it.
Btw, did the pastor by any chance make any predictions about Russia's invasion of Ukraine, now that it's actually happened? And if he did, did he say who would possibly win this conflict? Because so far it seems Russia is basically losing, though we'll have to wait and see how much they can regain with them having mobilised around 300 000 new soldiers, but who aren't as trained & equipped as the original invading force.
 
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Bob Crowley

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So did the pastor also have his own natural human predictions & opinions on how things will go, which were in no way motivated by revelation from God but simple human analysis of things? If so, how was it distinguished from the times he said "I think that..." because he thought he was getting revelation from God, not just his own personal human opinion / analysis of things

The pastor who died in 1992 did not accurately predict from his own analysis of things the fact my sister would get leukemia (2005), that I would get Diabetes (also 2005) and that I would start playing hockey again as one consequence (2008) , that one of his sons would have a health breakdown (and he named the son) (circa 1996), that I would be doing a cleaning job for a short time, not like it much, and hear about a ghost (2006), that there would be a conspiracy against me at my then job or that I would make a silly mistake (1995), or that I would become Catholic (1996/7).

Get real. How many people do you think would analyse things based on personal experience and then say "I think you'll be doing a cleaning job for a short time, not like it much, and hear about a ghost" when the event didn't even take place for another 14 years after he died?

Btw, did the pastor by any chance make any predictions about Russia's invasion of Ukraine, now that it's actually happened? And if he did, did he say who would possibly win this conflict? Because so far it seems Russia is basically losing, though we'll have to wait and see how much they can regain with them having mobilised around 300 000 new soldiers, but who aren't as trained & equipped as the original invading force.
I don't know if he did or not. If he did, I don't remember it. He did say he thought the Russians would revert to the Orthodox faith, and that's happened. Mind you the wall had come down a year or two before he made the prediction. He also stated that he thought that the UK would revert to Catholicism (hasn't happened yet, but the Anglican church has been steadily losing ground).

He didn't predict 9/11 either. God was only going to tell him as much as He thought was necessary, not give a running list of all the future events that were going to take place for the next fifty years.

He did predict the recent (Covid) pandemic without saying "Covid". He said "I think they would have been better to let it run through the community, but I suppose they'll want to save a few lives". We went into national and interestate quarantine, which cost the various governments in Australia an enormous amount of money, but they did "save a few lives" in doing so.

He also said "I think there'll be a massacare at Port Arthur (in Tasmania, Australia). They'll use that to bring in gun control." That happened in 1996, and it was used to bring in gun control.

God was telling him - full stop. You can't analyse those sorts of things using your own thoughts. And according to a book I've got by a Catholic exorcist, the devil can't see the future either, so he could not have told him. Mind you, the devil can put two and two together pretty well.

Recently though I've wondered how the devil can even think straight, since he is confined to Hell, with all its burning torments. One of those mysteries I suppose.
 
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NormyFaithful

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The pastor who died in 1992 did not accurately predict from his own analysis of things the fact my sister would get leukemia (2005), that I would get Diabetes (also 2005) and that I would start playing hockey again as one consequence (2008) , that one of his sons would have a health breakdown (and he named the son) (circa 1996), that I would be doing a cleaning job for a short time, not like it much, and hear about a ghost (2006), that there would be a conspiracy against me at my then job or that I would make a silly mistake (1995), or that I would become Catholic (1996/7).

Get real. How many people do you think would analyse things based on personal experience and then say "I think you'll be doing a cleaning job for a short time, not like it much, and hear about a ghost" when the event didn't even take place for another 14 years after he died?
Understandable, no need to get frustrated. I don't doubt at all that he was getting revelation from God in those examples you cited. I personally know priests who knew stuff about others which they weren't supposed to be knowing, and even made correct predictions about their personal future broadly speaking, though not as specific or direct or numerous as your pastor did, so yeah, I believe this stuff is real.

I was just asking whether the pastor, IN ADDITION to prophecies from God, also sometimes put forward his own personal opinions on things, and if so, how those two were distinguished in the way he spoke. I assume that, when he was directly prophesying, he didn't just use the phrase "I think that...." by itelf; he most likely did this in personal conversations with you in his office whenever you asked him for important advice, or about your direction in life, especially in relation to God's will. Those aspects by themelves are excellent context that clearly shows he meant it in a directly prophetic way, not just as a personal opinion, especially after you've seen his predictions come true multiple times.

So if he DID sometimes give his merely personal opinions that were NOT intended as actual prophecy, it looks like he'd do so in a way that's obvious he is NOT doing this - say what politican would win local elections that were a few days away in casual banter that has no religious context or anything to do with God.
I don't know if he did or not. If he did, I don't remember it. He did say he thought the Russians would revert to the Orthodox faith, and that's happened. Mind you the wall had come down a year or two before he made the prediction. He also stated that he thought that the UK would revert to Catholicism (hasn't happened yet, but the Anglican church has been steadily losing ground).
Interestingly enough, this seems to be only partially true of Russia. Abortion rates are still extremely high in the country, and church-attendace rates are very low currently compared to many other countries - but right after freedom of religion came back, the Russian Church rebuilt many churches and religious life quickly became larger than it was under Soviet rule. But I don't think that's a problem for his prediction since no explicit scale of conversion is stated, and the portion of Russia that's basically been religious underground coming into the open air would be sufficient to validate this prediction. So even though the comeback to Orthodoxy is small on the whole, things like the fact Russia at least attempts to use Orthodoxy for propaganda purposes nowadays (even though most aren't really all that into their native faith) is sufficient to fulfill it.
He didn't predict 9/11 either. God was only going to tell him as much as He thought was necessary, not give a running list of all the future events that were going to take place for the next fifty years.
Point taken, agreed.

God was telling him - full stop. You can't analyse those sorts of things using your own thoughts. And according to a book I've got by a Catholic exorcist, the devil can't see the future either, so he could not have told him. Mind you, the devil can put two and two together pretty well.

Recently though I've wondered how the devil can even think straight, since he is confined to Hell, with all its burning torments. One of those mysteries I suppose.
About that, while it's certainly true angelic beings (including demons) can't see directly into the future since they aren't eternal as God is, some church fathers did believe God revealed some basic facts about the future to them before they rebelled against Him about what would happen in human history - not necessarily specific details, but perhaps big events like major wars or political changes over centuries in continents - and that they sometimes misuse this knowledge to pretend to know the future in general, or to impress those that unfortunately deal in the occult. I've even read some who hold that the future may in a limited sense be visible even though it's not tangibly there yet, at least in the sense that patterns already exist that point to certain outcomes, though with more distance in time the less detail there is.......which to me basically sounds like a more fancy description of weather-forecasting, but with extra knowledge and perhaps natural final causality.

Agreed though that one can tell whether a prophecy is from God or not - with regards not only to detail, but also some other things such as fruits coming from it, etc.

Also, it's not known whether fallen angels literally suffer physical fire - as immaterial beings with no bodies, it's unlikely their punishment in Hell consists in this. Many theologians would say it's a spiritual penalty, like frustration or sorrow - Scripture at the very least indicates Hell is shame as well. I personally hold the imagery of fire is symbolical of shame and other things, and that makes more sense for demons as well, due to them being bodiless. Given sufficient hatred of humans, however, it's very possible they are sufficiently irrationally obsessed with harming us that their suffering only intensifies their hatred of those who don't suffer and desire to harm them as well.
 
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