Can Gays be Christian?

[Zebra1552]

Guys, there is no sex in Heaven, there is in Paradise, but not in Heaven.

And Saint Paul promoted and practiced "abstinence". He did say though that if you couldn't do that that you should then get married.

Anyway sex is a "this world reality" and not a Heaven reality. And in an ideal world, a Christian would be "in this world" but not "of this world."

True Christianity, at least the way the Jesus presented it, is for most of us a difficult to impossible road to travel, but most of us get to be Christians anyway.

love,

tuck

Paul also said that was his opinion. Next?

 

[Zebra1552]

All this bigotry and intolerance hurts my head.

Anyone can be anything. You could all convert to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care, and you have the right to do so.

I echo earlier sentiments; why would you want to join a religion however, that hates you so because a book written by people thousands of years ago with biases and contradictions says so?

Where does the Bible express hatred towards any one person or group of people?

 

[Zebra1552]

What action is condemned? You didn't answer my question. What are Paul's audience "exchanging" if they are gay, and why does it only refer to cases of pagan worship?

Why ask me a question if you're going to tell me the answer? Because you're framing the question.

This whole scenario reminds me of creationism. The conclusion is already predetermined, and the evidence is pigeonholed to make sure that conclusion is true. So gays are bad, just because, and the Bible proves it because I say so.

Excuse me, no, that is not what I have argued. Straw man. I have argued that the act of gay sex is condemned in the Bible, not that any person is 'bad' (though it would be accurate to say that all people are sinful, because they miss the mark and cannot avoid doing so). If you care to address what I asked for:

In none of yours or Ollie's posts have I ever seen any evidence to testify to your claims. They're empty until you or he can provide legit sources.

I would be happy to discuss this further. However, if you are going to give me framed questions and put arguments in my mouth for you to shoot down, then I will not be discussing this with you.

 

[Zebra1552]

This part of my post was in general, try to tell me there are no christians like that at all. No pulling a 'no true scotsman' now.

If they wish for people to go to hell, then they have not renewed or transformed their minds and have not become new creations, and therefore by the criteria given in the Bible are not Christians.

many have yet to hear a convincing, consistent, logical reason for evolution to be true. I dont know what to tell you.

Good for them. This isn't about them, and it's not about evolution. Red herring.

But really the post wasnt aimed at you specifically you where just a funny example with regards to the second part of my post. To be honest I am not that interested In how you paint your own sense morality to be gods will. I just find it hilarious that you do it.

I do not however think of you as personally wanting to torture the gays to death.

I don't paint my own morality to be God's will. I point straight to the Bible, using theologically sound principles of interpretation.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

If they wish for people to go to hell, then they have not renewed or transformed their minds and have not become new creations, and therefore by the criteria given in the Bible are not Christians.

No true scotsman.

Good for them. This isn't about them, and it's not about evolution. Red herring.

Its a comparison, just because you do not see it does not mean it is not there.

I don't paint my own morality to be God's will. I point straight to the Bible, using theologically sound principles of interpretation.

And I believe you when you say that. The only problem is that everybody else claims the exact same thing and they are saying something different.

 

[sbvera13]

If women can be Christian, then I'd think gays can be. The Bible spends a LOT more time talking about how women are sinful/carry original sin/are unclean/etc then it does abotu homosexuality.

 

[Zebra1552]

No true scotsman.

Of course it isn't. I used the same criteria I described at the start of this thread. Post number 8. I haven't revised that criteria at all, and I have not reinterpreted anything. You described a person who simply did not fit that criteria. The statement I made is falsifiable. If said person only wished that people go to hell once in awhile as opposed to all the time, they would not be living in sin and could in fact be Christian. You implied in your example, however, that some so called Christians wish all gays to go to hell: this is in direct contrast to what Christ teaches, that all can be saved and it is our duty as Christians to make that happen. We are told to make disciples and to bear fruit, and we are told in John 15 that anyone who doesn't remain in God and bear fruit are burned. Being a Christian is not permanent: as I just demonstrated, it can be fluid.

Its a comparison, just because you do not see it does not mean it is not there.

So I'm supposed to take your word for it?

And I believe you when you say that. The only problem is that everybody else claims the exact same thing and they are saying something different.

Yet I'm sure if you ran them through their processes, there would be some method or fact they overlook or, more often than not, conveniently ignore.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Of course it isn't. I used the same criteria I described at the start of this thread. Post number 8. I haven't revised that criteria at all, and I have not reinterpreted anything. You described a person who simply did not fit that criteria. The statement I made is falsifiable. If said person only wished that people go to hell once in awhile as opposed to all the time, they would not be living in sin and could in fact be Christian. You implied in your example, however, that some so called Christians wish all gays to go to hell: this is in direct contrast to what Christ teaches, that all can be saved and it is our duty as Christians to make that happen. We are told to make disciples and to bear fruit, and we are told in John 15 that anyone who doesn't remain in God and bear fruit are burned. Being a Christian is not permanent: as I just demonstrated, it can be fluid.

I find it alittle funny if you simply define anything bad out of your idea of christain. "If you do something inexcussable your no christian."

So I'm supposed to take your word for it?

Touché

Yet I'm sure if you ran them through their processes, there would be some method or fact they overlook or, more often than not, conveniently ignore.

Its good to have unwavering faith in your own convictions im sure. No needing to deal with that pesky question of "What if im wrong?" You can just skip that all together and go straight to "I am right, I do not have to look closely at anything else because I am right."

Ofcourse It is entirely possible that is true. I am not going to argue with you on it. That would be just gold having an atheist argue for the bible as a equality inspiring book. They might revoke my membership card.

 

[Zebra1552]

I find it alittle funny if you simply define anything bad out of your idea of christain. "If you do something inexcussable your no christian."

Except it's not 'anything bad'. It is any action or behavior the clearly displays an unchanged heart or living in intentional sin. The wording of the behavior or the context the behavior is the important information. Everything is excusable with repentance before one dies. Obviously you can't change your mind once you're dead.

Touché

What's life without challenge?

Its good to have unwavering faith in your own convictions im sure. No needing to deal with that pesky question of "What if im wrong?" You can just skip that all together and go straight to "I am right, I do not have to look closely at anything else because I am right."

My convictions are not something I've been told to believe, and they are not something I just decided to hold. They have developed from nothing but choice, and they have been tested and tried on many occasions both here on CF and another forum, and real life. I argue for the truth of my convictions because I have seen the evidence for the opposing theological view. I do not hold to OSAS, for example, because I find nothing logical about it and because the verses used to support it are consistently taken out of context.

I also hold that I'm a very humble person, by the way.

Ofcourse It is entirely possible that is true. I am not going to argue with you on it. That would be just gold having an atheist argue for the bible as a equality inspiring book. They might revoke my membership card.

Meh. You shouldn't limit the testing your beliefs simply because you identify as a an atheist.

 

[tucker58]

Except it's not 'anything bad'. It is any action or behavior the clearly displays an unchanged heart or living in intentional sin. The wording of the behavior or the context the behavior is the important information. Everything is excusable with repentance before one dies. Obviously you can't change your mind once you're dead.



What's life without challenge?


My convictions are not something I've been told to believe, and they are not something I just decided to hold. They have developed from nothing but choice, and they have been tested and tried on many occasions both here on CF and another forum, and real life. I argue for the truth of my convictions because I have seen the evidence for the opposing theological view. I do not hold to OSAS, for example, because I find nothing logical about it and because the verses used to support it are consistently taken out of context.

I also hold that I'm a very humble person, by the way.

Meh. You shouldn't limit the testing your beliefs simply because you identify as a an atheist.

"I also hold that I'm a very humble person, by the way."

Jaws13, you are a claimed reality that we are all now exploring . And you like me are very aggressive .

Jaws13, I have been reading your stuff and you have just gotten to be fun !

Conflict sells news papers if it can be managed and this message board has "Awesome" management .

Hugs, sir jaws you have become fun!

tuck

 

[Zebra1552]

Thanks! I like to view myself as assertive, however, not aggressive.

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Except it's not 'anything bad'. It is any action or behavior the clearly displays an unchanged heart or living in intentional sin. The wording of the behavior or the context the behavior is the important information. Everything is excusable with repentance before one dies. Obviously you can't change your mind once you're dead.

Actually I did not say 'anything bad' i purposely went for 'inexcusable' and i think it fits rather nicely. even with your own example a unchanging heart or living in intentional sin are inexcusable thus no true christians, by your standards.

What's life without challenge?

Empty and boring

My convictions are not something I've been told to believe, and they are not something I just decided to hold. They have developed from nothing but choice, and they have been tested and tried on many occasions both here on CF and another forum, and real life. I argue for the truth of my convictions because I have seen the evidence for the opposing theological view. I do not hold to OSAS, for example, because I find nothing logical about it and because the verses used to support it are consistently taken out of context.

Im sorry but what is OSAS?

I also hold that I'm a very humble person, by the way.

Ill take your word for it

Meh. You shouldn't limit the testing your beliefs simply because you identify as a an atheist.

No you missunderstand, I am mearly not going to argue for a position that I do not hold myself. I have no problem testing my own believes against anything.

 

[tucker58]

Thanks! I like to view myself as assertive, however, not aggressive.

there is no difference.

love,

tuck

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

there is no difference.

love,

tuck

emoticons means your kidding right?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Good for them. We are not talking about opinion here, and I am not giving any opinion. God's commands are clearly written throughout the Bible. Should you wish to test me on what those are, you may do so in an applicable location.

Red herring.



I see that you did not actually read what I wrote. I said that they need to repent of any sin they may be living in. The occasional lie isn't living in sin. There are generally three levels of sin. That which misses the mark, such as Romans 3:23, that which is intentional, such as in 1 John 1, and there is living in sin, which is essentially sin addiction, which is mentioned numerous times throughout the NT.


What poll or survey are you using? Just because the consensus isn't there doesn't mean the criteria is useless. All it takes is good biblical interpretation- consistent, I might add- and you have something perfectly in line with what I just said.

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

 

[BigBadWlf]

Marriage is always man and woman. Sexual holiness is within the marriage arrangement.

Except for all those polygamous marriages…and the levirate marriages…and the concubines….and the use of slaves as surrogate mothers….and so on and so on

 

[BigBadWlf]

Assuming that there is such a thing as a gay. Gay is a monker applied to a person, not a race or culture right?

It is the same thing we see again and again this attempt to de-humanize a minority in order to justify prejudice and discrimination. By claiming a minority is diseased or degenerate, criminal and/or focused on sex, or that they somehow don’t even exist or any other number of hate based claims then it reduces that minority to something less than human and supposedly makes discrimination somehow justified.

Consider how racists attempt to define black people as animals, as intellectual and cultural inferiors and as a people obsessed with sex. Those who hate Jews define them as communists, swindlers, baby killers and sex fiends. Of course none of these claims were true and neither is the comparison of gays and lesbians to people who sexually abuse children. The bogus comparison is the same hateful and that is the best thing that can be said about it

 

[JustMeSee]

(1)Yes, I believe homosexuals can be Christians. Different churches have varying views on this subject, so they don't all agree with my assessment.

(2)Many churches are accepting of homosexuals who are chaste. There are other churches that welcome homosexuals that engage in same-sex relations.

(3)Who gets to judge what does or does not constitute as a Christian?

(1)But can Christians engage in homosexuality? Should they? It seems clear from the testimony of the New Testament writers the answer is no.



(2)That's not surprising.



(2)There is no support for Christian marriage to be between same gender individuals. Not anywhere in the New Testament. For the record.



(3)You already have your answer:



Jesus detailed marriage as a man and a woman. The Apostles detailed the marriage bed as being kept pure in the exact same configuration.

There is no such thing as same gender marriage in the New Testament.

Do the necessary reasoning from there on appropriate sexual behavior. This subject is not a tough one to figure out if you don't view Jesus, the Apostles and the Bible as nonsense. Or a religion of hate because holiness is expected when stated as such.

(1)Homosexuality is not a sexual act. It is a sexual attraction. I don't know if there are any verses in The Bible that cover sexual attraction towards the same gender.

(2)I didn't make any claims about same-gender marriage in this thread. I will take your word that your interpretation of scriptures say that same-gender marriage is a no-no. I was speaking to the fact that some churches welcome homosexuals as members.

(3) I will assume your answer is Jesus, God The Father, the apostles, and/or The Bible.

All Christians do not view homosexuality and homosexual sex in the same way. In no way did I claim in my previous post that any one church has everything right on the subject. I just give people (gay or straight) the benefit of the doubt when they say they are Christian. Ultimately, God would be the final judge.

Homosexuality does not equal homosexual sex.

 

[Fenny the Fox]

Can Gays be Christian? I think that they can. At least Christian Gays are accepting the possibility that God does exist and they do, as individuals, when they become Christian, come under the salvation of Jesus Christ. We are all in a state of ignorance and when Jesus returns, this will all be sorted out.

Can Gays be Christians?

anybody?

love,

tuck

I would say that they can. The belief in God and the acceptance of Christ does not change someone's sexuality.

If one views such life as sinful, regardless of sexual conduct (active or not, mean), the fact is this: everyone sins. Whether it is sexual in nature, lying, gambling, etc. Everyone sins, and everyone has some "pet sin" that they never admit or, if they do, they never stop.

Of you takes the view of "queer theology" (I hate that term, just saying), then they don't believe it is sinful in the first place.

They can be saved by Christ, through Grace, just as all people can.

 

[Zebra1552]

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

Straw man. I'm not talking about works of the Law. I'm talking about works that give evidence to faith.