Can Christians be Demonized?

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mortsmune

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Questioning Christian said:
Why is it that some people enjoy talking more about the devil than they do Jesus?

If Satan is so powerful, and he can do so much evil to you without your permission, then why don't you go serve him?
That remark is made in ignorance. Personally I do not enjoy talking about the devil more than I do Jesus. I have heard that same accusation put forth many times by people. It is an unfounded accusation. This is a thread about that subject. Naturally, people are talking about Satan and demons here. Actually, I much prefer talking about Jesus over Satan, and indeed I do. That remark was an emotionally charged statement that has no factual or logical validity or usefulness.

If you actually read the posts instead of skimming them, you would see that the point is not to glorify Satan or to talk about how powerful he is. Rather, my point has been that most people in the church underestimate his power and do so at the expense of sound biblical study and exegesis. Paul made the comment, "we are not ignorant of his devices." However, I doubt that Paul would say that about many today.

Statements saying such things as the devil is powerless or that he cannot touch us are ignorant statements that are neither the result of sound biblical exegesis, nor do they bear any resemblance to the real-world experiences of believers. It is obvious that the devil has power and can touch believers. It happens all the time.

Certainly Jesus is infinitely more powerful than the devil, but we are told to resist him. In spite of what has been stated in this forum and other places on CF, this does not mean to ignore him or to sit and smell roses while the the world around us goes to hell in a handbasket. Resist (anthistemi) means to engage in a counter-attack in battle. It is a term of warfare. We are also to follow the example of Jesus in setting the prisoners free.

A person engaged directly in the battle of deliverance will see firsthand the power of Jesus Christ against Satan. I have been engaged in many such battles for the release of captives for the sake of God's kingdom. It is not Satan that is glorified in deliverance; it is Jesus.

It has been amazing to me over the years how many people there are, ignorant of deliverance and ignorant of true spiritual warfare, who speak about such things as if they are experts. They are quick, almost anxious, to demean, belittle, and insult those who out of compassion for their hurting and tormented brothers and sisters are willing to endure hours of grueling direct encounters with the enemy to set their brethren free. Yet these same people who so ignorantly demean, belittle, and insult their brethren do not lift a finger to help the tormented souls around them. It is so much easier to just tell them to repent, to have more faith, and to go to a psychiatrist for "professional" help.
 
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Godzchild

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Statements saying such things as the devil is powerless or that he cannot touch us are ignorant statements that are neither the result of sound biblical exegesis, nor do they bear any resemblance to the real-world experiences of believers. It is obvious that the devil has power and can touch believers. It happens all the time.

I think statements like that show a lot of faith - to be honest. And a lot of belief in Jesus and his power and authority!!!!!
 
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Godzchild

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mortsmune said:
They do not show faith because they are not true.

Luckily for you - that's just your opinion. In my opinion - you either believe in Jesus or you don't. If you don't then yes you can have as many curses on your life that you like! And from what iv'e seen of people - they are quite happy to stay that way. I however, am not!
 
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mortsmune said:
They do not show faith because they are not true.

Wow.... prove it. Prove they are not true.
I am very interested to see what you have to say, especially because quite honestly I don't think it can be done.
 
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Questioning Christian

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mortsmune said:
That remark is made in ignorance. Personally I do not enjoy talking about the devil more than I do Jesus. I have heard that same accusation put forth many times by people. It is an unfounded accusation.

No, mortsmune, the statement is not made in ignorance, nor was it made toward you. It was made toward all the devil-freaks and deliverance-freaks who like talking about Satan, in the context of this discussion.

I get so tired of hearing about "What Demons Can Do To Christians". Nowhere in the Bible do any of the Scriptures obsess about demonic damage to the believer. Many modern deliverance ministries are like the seven sons of Sceva, not that they don't believe, but they wouldn't know a real demon if it hit them in the face. If they ever encountered a real one, they would pee in their pants and run out the door.

They love to obsess about What Demons Can Do To Christians, but rejoice less in the power of the cross than in the limited authority of Satan. They spend 95% of the time talking about 5% of reality. The fact is, we don't really face demons in every situation. Sometimes the copying machine broke down because it needs to be repaired. Sometimes a person is sick because they neglected their health. Sometimes people act weird because they have mental deficiencies.

Jesus and the disciples did not go around looking for demons like today's deliverance believers do. They claim victory over major demons, but produce little real change. They don't even fast, and the disciples [who did not fast on one occasion] could not cast out a demon from the little boy. Now how could today's believers cast out real devils, if they are not fasting, if the disciples of old did not fast and could not cast them out?

There has been way too much emphasis put on Satan and demons. Yes, we are to talk about them and acknowledge their existence, but to obsess on them, like many Charismatics and Pentecostals do, is foolish, and gives the enemy more credit and more foothold [through fear] than he would have ordinarily.

The greater one lives in me, and there is no demon anywhere who can stop what God wants to do in my life.

Too often, Christians resign themselves to defeat, when they have failed again and again, to "having a demonic oppression", when the fact is that they have not walked in the ways of victory. This takes applying God's word, and walking in faith, something that many people do not want to do. They would rather poke along in a lazy Christianity, and think that God will cover their back for their own personal lack of diligence, when in fact our own spiritual condition has been left in our hands.

If the devil is so powerful to stop someone, he would have stopped them from choosing to be saved. In my mind, although Satan might try to hinder, there is no way he can stop God or God's people.

Almost every scripture I read in the Bible where Satan stopped the believers, there was some failure on the believer's part to obey God.

This is not to say that every problem is our fault. Sometimes, God is testing us from His own hand, but when it comes from Satan himself, I believe for the most part that there was more we could have done to bring the blessing of God and not be stopped by the enemy.

Then you have these people who resist and say that everything is Satan's fault, and we are just powerless against his opposition, that every time he wants to come against us, we can't do anything, and that Satan is just oppressing us.

Oh, poor little me, the body of Christ.

That was not the original intent in Smith Wigglesworth and others who taught us about the spiritual world. Their intent was to show us the victory, not the war. War is hell; victory is awesome. Their intent in teaching us was to tell us that Jesus is Lord over all.

If this life is so terrible, and we are on the losing side, then we should just lay down and let Satan kill us, or maybe go ahead and do it for him!!!!

Or will we stand up and walk in the authority given us? WE are not defeated. We are not stoppable. We are not on the losing side. If you believe you are on the losing side, and it is you who are oppressed, rather than Satan being oppressed and tormented, then you need to switch sides.

If God is God, serve Him; if Baal is God, then serve Him.
 
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Father Rick

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To jump in here just a sec... IMO, one of the reasons that there has been such an over-emphasis of deliverance in certain ministries is an attempt to counter-balance the under-emphasis found in much of the church.

Casting out devils/ministering deliverance/healing those oppressed by the devil (it's referred to different ways at different times in scripture) was a LARGE part of Jesus' ministry--yet seems to occupy a miniscule part of the ministry of the church in America (in the other countries in which I have been this is not the case).

I did a quick concordance search on Crosswalk.com just in the gospels (not even including the rest of scripture). I will paste the verses here dealing specifically with devils-- it might take a couple of posts due to the amount. Maybe this will help show just how important a role this played in the ministry of Christ:

Mt 4:24 - Show Context And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Mt 7:22 - Show Context Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mt 8:16 - Show Context When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

Mt 8:28 - Show Context And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

Mt 8:31 - Show Context So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

Mt 8:33 - Show Context And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.

Mt 9:34 - Show Context But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.

Mt 10:8 - Show Context Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Mt 12:24 - Show Context But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Mt 12:27 - Show Context And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

Mt 12:28 - Show Context But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Mr 1:32 - Show Context And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

Mr 1:34 - Show Context And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

Mr 1:39 - Show Context And he preached in their synagogues throughout all Galilee, and cast out devils.

Mr 3:15 - Show Context And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:

Mr 3:22 - Show Context And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.

Mr 5:12 - Show Context And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

Mr 6:13 - Show Context And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

Mr 9:38 - Show Context And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mr 16:9 - Show Context Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
 
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Father Rick

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Mr 16:17 - Show Context And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Lu 4:41 - Show Context And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Lu 8:2 - Show Context And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

Lu 8:27 - Show Context And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.

Lu 8:30 - Show Context And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Lu 8:33 - Show Context Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.

Lu 8:35 - Show Context Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Lu 8:36 - Show Context They also which saw it told them by what means he that was possessed of the devils was healed.

Lu 8:38 - Show Context Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying,

Lu 9:1 - Show Context Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

Lu 9:49 - Show Context And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.

Lu 10:17 - Show Context And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

Lu 11:15 - Show Context But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils.

Lu 11:18 - Show Context If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

Lu 11:19 - Show Context And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

Lu 11:20 - Show Context But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Lu 13:32 - Show Context And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
 
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Father Rick

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Mt 4:1 - Show Context Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Mt 4:5 - Show Context Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

Mt 4:8 - Show Context Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Mt 4:11 - Show Context Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Mt 9:32 - Show Context As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.

Mt 9:33 - Show Context And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

Mt 11:18 - Show Context For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

Mt 12:22 - Show Context Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

Mt 13:39 - Show Context The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mt 15:22 - Show Context And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

Mt 17:18 - Show Context And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

Mt 25:41 - Show Context Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mr 5:15 - Show Context And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

Mr 5:16 - Show Context And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.

Mr 5:18 - Show Context And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.

Mr 7:26 - Show Context The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

Mr 7:29 - Show Context And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

Mr 7:30 - Show Context And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.

Lu 4:2 - Show Context Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered.

Lu 4:3 - Show Context And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
 
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Father Rick

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Lu 4:5 - Show Context And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

Lu 4:6 - Show Context And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Lu 4:13 - Show Context And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Lu 4:33 - Show Context And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,

Lu 4:35 - Show Context And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not.

Lu 7:33 - Show Context For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

Lu 8:12 - Show Context Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Lu 8:29 - Show Context (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)

Lu 9:42 - Show Context And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

Lu 11:14 - Show Context And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.

Joh 6:70 - Show Context Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Joh 7:20 - Show Context The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

Joh 8:44 - Show Context Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Joh 8:48 - Show Context Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

Joh 8:49 - Show Context Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

Joh 8:52 - Show Context Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

Joh 10:20 - Show Context And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

Joh 10:21 - Show Context Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

Joh 13:2 - Show Context And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;
 
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Mt 8:16 - Show Context When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

Mt 10:1 - Show Context And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Mt 12:45 - Show Context Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Mr 1:27 - Show Context And they were all amazed, insomuch that they questioned among themselves, saying, What thing is this? what new doctrine is this? for with authority commandeth he even the unclean spirits, and they do obey him.

Mr 3:11 - Show Context And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Mr 5:13 - Show Context And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

Mr 6:7 - Show Context And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits;

Lu 4:36 - Show Context And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

Lu 6:18 - Show Context And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed.

Lu 7:21 - Show Context And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.

Lu 8:2 - Show Context And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

Lu 10:20 - Show Context Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Lu 11:26 - Show Context Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Mt 12:43 - Show Context When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Mr 1:23 - Show Context And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,

Mr 1:26 - Show Context And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.

Mr 3:30 - Show Context Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Mr 5:2 - Show Context And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,

Mr 5:8 - Show Context For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

Mr 7:25 - Show Context For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:

Lu 4:33 - Show Context And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,

Lu 8:29 - Show Context (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)

Lu 9:42 - Show Context And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

Lu 11:24 - Show Context When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
 
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Father Rick

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I think this should show that this is actually a major topic in scripture-- not just a sideline. The scriptures in the above posts are just the ones from the gospels-- not even including anything from the rest of the New Testament.


With so much scripture devoted to this topic (almost 1/3 of Jesus' ministry), why shouldn't we, following in Christ's footsteps, see this as a regular part of our life and ministry?
 
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Questioning Christian

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There is a difference between dealing with problems as they arise, and going looking for trouble. When you go to a ballgame, and there is a rowdy drunk, do you go over to his seat and punch him in the face, or do you handle the matter only when it becomes a problem?
 
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mortsmune

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Wow.... prove it. Prove they are not true.
I am very interested to see what you have to say, especially because quite honestly I don't think it can be done.
I am not certain what would constitute proof to you. I can only say that there are many passages in scripture that warn us that the enemy can indeed touch us. Jesus told us to pray "deliver us from the evil one." In addition, all you have to do is open your eyes and take your head out of the sand and you will realize that the church is filled with people whom the enemy has indeed touched.

Frankly, I find it quite amazing that anyone that doesn't live alone on some island would even believe that the enemy cannot touch us. I have been a believer for 45 years. I have counseled hundreds of believers over those years. I have found that the enemy indeed does touch and affect and torment and bind multitudes of God's children. To deny that is just that--denial.

When Paul tells us to resist the devil, why on earth would we need to do that, if the devil cannot touch us. Pauls calls it warfare. You can hardly call it warfare when the enemy has no power over you.

The question is utterly irrational, both from a biblical perspective and from an experienital perspective. To believe and teach that the enemy is powerless to touch us is a very dangerous teaching; it is not a biblical teaching, and it goes against all the evidence.

In the final analysis, I suppose it is not possible for me to prove to you what I say; you have apparently expended a great deal of energy convincing yourself that what you believe is true against the biblical evidence and against the real-life evidence.

I only pray by God's mercy that others will not believe what you say and allow themselves to be lulled into false faith and false security while the enemy laughs himself silly over Christian ignorance and gullibility.

Woe unto them that are at ease in Zion.
 
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mortsmune

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Questioning Christian said:
There is a difference between dealing with problems as they arise, and going looking for trouble. When you go to a ballgame, and there is a rowdy drunk, do you go over to his seat and punch him in the face, or do you handle the matter only when it becomes a problem?
There is also an enourmous difference between a rowdy drunk, who is a human being for whom Christ died whom we as Christians are commanded to love, and a demon who is absolutely and completely evil, who is utterly beyond redemption, and whose only purpose and desire is to destroy God's works and destroy all love and joy and destroy all those who follow Jesus.
 
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