Can Catholics Vote Libertarian?

[Cosmic Charlie]

Mitt and the wives ?

 

[AMDG]

Quite a few of us have been saying that very notion all along. Yet, you are the one who wishes us all to blindly follow or vote for Romney, for he is not Obama. We ought to no more blindly follow Romney than Obama. It is as plain as day; as simple as this. It essentially boils down to this: Principle matters more than politics. Just because they've an 'R' or 'Republican' label next to their name does not mean that they are good, beneficial, or somehow better than or not nearly as bad as Obama is.

Actually, no. It's not blindly voting to follow the Bishops in the non-negotiables and reject Obama's view of hating life, morality, and freedom. So that leaves those who oppose his views. Someone who has a chance of beating Obama so as not to risk more lives and the teachings of the Catholic Church. (Yes, I remember what happened with third party candidate, Ross Perot. He split the vote and gave the election away.) That "someone" has to have a "snowball's chance" or we get four more years of destruction.

Now, I have said that I belong to the Susan B. Anthony list and have so for years. I *know* that they definitely *are* pro-life and I know that they have an excellent track record at seeing pro-life politicians into office (and likewise helping to get pro-death politicians out of office and seeing pro-life politicians ushered in.) They are *highly* successful. Perhaps that doesn't carry much weight with some, but it carries tremendous weight with me.

I have also been an admirer of Rick Santorum for *years* and know of his family values and pro-life stances. (Yes, when he was in office I had occassion to contact.) I was sad that he didn't get enough votes to become "presumptive nominee". He did come out and say that Gov. Romney had great family values. His endorsement meant a lot to me as well.

Then there's Rand Paul, the son of Senator Ron Paul. (And yes, they are close.) I really liked Ron Paul's ideas about the Fed., and I liked his ideas about limited government, and I liked the fact that he is a doctor and so is definitely pro-life. When Gov. Romney reached the number of votes to become the presumptive nominee, it turned out that pro-life Rand Paul also came out and endorsed Gov. Romney. (Again his endorsement meant a lot to me because I was aware how staunchly pro-life the Pauls are.)

So I took a look at Gov. Romney's experience and liked what I saw. He actually was able to save businesses and organizations. He didn't just destroy business like Obama did. Okay, I figured his experience is a plus. I then considered that many of the Christian folks that are pro-life and pro-morality are also pro-Gov. Romney. So I looked into his Mormon faith some more and noted the LDS Articles of Faith and the fact that the LDS *are* family oriented and moral--well I guess it will take a little more time for them to become Catholic. (Oh, my husband's telling me that we are not being asked to *become* LDS, just to pick an experienced, leader who is pro-life and pro-morality helped.)

I've taken a look at this country--how it's now going on 16 trillion in debt and how the economy is also tanking while the UN is making noises like *it's* in control of the U.S., how the we can't afford another four years--we won't even exist!, and how Obama is attacking the Catholic Church and the Bishops said that Catholics can make a difference *if* we vote the non-negotiables. So no, I am not voting blindly. Heck I'm not even Republican. I vote for who I consider to be the best person for the job (who will uphold the non-negotiables) and has a "snowball's chance" of winning--not the first black, the first woman, the first Mormon, or what-not or a letter after the person's name.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Really, *everybody* there knew what that sound byte meant (since it wasn't taken "out of context" there. It was about individual *people*. Individual *people* work in corporations.

Well

Lets let the readers decide for themselves:

'Corporations Are People' - Mitt Romney - YouTube

His comment were about 3:00 minutes in.

 

[AMDG]

Mitt and the wives ?

No, Mitt and his wife, and his sons and their wives, and their children.

Looks like they aren't trying to force the Catholic Church to pay for abortifacients and birth control.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

You've not proven that he is person for whom one could in good conscience vote. You've merely given your opinion that you feel he has changed.

I would like to feel similarly; save for this qualification: I actually require some proof that his words aren't mere words and there are some substance behind them that isn't pure opportunism.

Thus far, the only reason he appears to be pro-life is due to the fact, that he'd never get elected as an openly pro-choice Republican president.

He has no solid way to decrease the national debt? How do we know he won't continue Obama's rampant spending? Bush overspent; Obama followed in His footsteps and CONTINUED Bush's Failed, unjust, and unconstitutional foreign policy measures. Now, you're saying that O'Romney differs?

All I've see and heard adds up to more debt, more wars (i.e. In Syria, Uganda, Yemen, etc.), and greater Federal Government usurpation of States' Rights and powers, and further curtailment and erosion of yours and mine God-given Liberties, rights, and freedoms.


Give us some solid sources, kindly. A few of them would do rather nicely.

 

[Needing_Grace]

No, Mitt and his wife, and his sons and their wives, and their children.

Looks like they aren't trying to force the Catholic Church to pay for abortifacients and birth control.

That has to be the weakest cum hoc ergo propter hoc I have EVER seen.

Sent from my iPhone using CF

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

Mittens, i think is not a terribly ideological guy. In many ways, no we don't know what we are buying by voting for him. That said, I think his underlying motivations (ambition, success for its own sake), will make for a more effective leader than obama's motivations (praise, status).


Romney won't come after the church like Obama is because its a losing proposition for him. Whether or not in the depths of his heart he gives a rip about religious freedom, i have no idea. And I really don't care. There are no windows to men's souls, so we must vote strategically and demanding outward expressions that are in line with the Church's interests is sufficient.

 

[AMDG]

Give us some solid sources, kindly. A few of them would do rather nicely.

Told you, first, there's the Bishops' non-negotiables, then there's that pro-life statement of his (made *before* he contemplated getting in the race) coupled with the endorsements of the Susan B. Anthony list and Rick Santorum and Rand Paul, mean a lot to me. I know that there are other endorsements, Gov. Huckabee's for instance, and I was surprised that he got an endorsement from the Gov. of South Carolina, and then there are those favorable endorsements of Bible belt Christians mean a lot to me, but those three mean the most. Also research into the LDS Articles of Faith and the fact that Romney is *not* a "Jack Mormon" but was a leader in that organization tends to convince me that he is for morality and not against it. And the fact that he actually has experience in *saving* businesses and organizations and has a pretty good track record there convinces me that he'll be a better choice than Obama. Gov. Romney has "real world" experience over Obama.

BTW--really like the courage Gov. Romney displays. (Hard to believe that anyone would want to take on trying to save the country after the mess of the last four yearsand the way it has been run down. I'm also impressed that Gov. Romney has even decided to speak to unfriendly audiences (something that Obama avoids.) I doubt that Obama's negative ads trying to distract us from his failing policies will have much of an effect on me, but of course, that's just me. You may have other ways of determining who is best for the country and how one can make certain that life, marriage and freedom will win in the 2012 election.

 

[AMDG]

Romney won't come after the church like Obama is because its a losing proposition for him. Whether or not in the depths of his heart he gives a rip about religious freedom, i have no idea. And I really don't care. There are no windows to men's souls, so we must vote strategically and demanding outward expressions that are in line with the Church's interests is sufficient.

I also don't think he'll try to destroy the Catholic Church either. It's part of the LDS Articles of Faith. Gov. Romney is not a "liberal" Mormon. He was a leader of the LDS Church and therefore goes by their rules. I think that's part of the reason he gives to charity so much. It's an LDS rule. They *have* to give at least 10% of their income to charity, or they can't get a Temple Recommend. (And from just the looks of his family, he *has* to keep his Temple Recommend up-to-date.)

 

[MikeK]

Told you, first, there's the Bishops' non-negotiables....

Balderdash! Mitt Romney fails the abortion "non-negotiable" test by refusing to oppose IVF or abortifacient contraceptives. If a politician does not oppose those, he is supporting abortion, and flunks the test you hold so dear. The Bishops don't merely oppose some types of abortion, unlike Mr Romney...this week.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

I also don't think he'll try to destroy the Catholic Church either. It's part of the LDS Articles of Faith. Gov. Romney is not a "liberal" Mormon. He was a leader of the LDS Church and therefore goes by their rules.of his family, he *has* to keep his Temple Recommend up-to-date.)

It is a article of faith in the LDS church that they will control the USA.

 

[Davidnic]

It is a article of faith in the LDS church that they will control the USA.

Yep. They also believe in the prophecy by Joseph Smith that one day the U.S. Constitution will hang by a thread and be saved by the "White Horse" an allegory for the LDS church.

And I have read people attribute that to the current, as they perceive it "heroics" of Glenn Beck and Mitt Romney.

Makes it interesting where some of this entire Constitution in danger thing is originating.

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

It is a article of faith in the LDS church that they will control the USA.

I, for one, welcome our new culturally insular high ethnic-cohesion overlords, and think they'll be vastly superior to our current set of elites.

 

[AMDG]

It is a article of faith in the LDS church that they will control the USA.

Nope. Here are the LDS Articles of Faith (Note #11, #12, the one about obeying laws, and the last one, #13--which sounds a bit like St. Paul's speech):

The Articles of Faith

And about the White Horse Prophecy, I am surprised at y'all for not doing research. (I know I was concerned, and so did the necessary research.) There are some that claim that such a prophecy *never even happened*. Such a prophecy wasn't even written down and even if Joseph Smith said that such a thing would happen, well, Joseph Smith has said a lot of things that never came true (he wasn't the most accurate of people--he even said that an Egyptian Funeral scroll was about Abraham!)

Again, no one is asking you to *become* LDS. All the Bishops want is for Catholics to vote the non-negotiables of life, marriage, and freedom. And all we need to do is vote for an experienced business person who stands a "snow balls chance" at saving the economy--the country.

Oh here's the supposed White Horse Prophecy (there's nothing but hearsay about it.):

http://www.reliefmine.com/articles/prophecy/94-the-white-horse-prophecy

 

[AMDG]

Here's something more about that WhiteHorse Prophecy. (Please note that even the thought that it is a prophecy is debated since it wasn't even written until *after* Joseph Smith died.)

White Horse Prophecy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know that I certainly don't believe it nor do I believe that anyone who votes for a LDS for president (we already have many in government--Senator Reid is one) is in danger of becomeing LDS. There is nothing in the Constitution that prevents anyone from any religion from running for president.

 

[MikeK]

well, Joseph Smith has said a lot of things that never came true (he wasn't the most accurate of people--he even said that an Egyptian Funeral scroll was about Abraham!)

Lol. The people who buy into such obviously manmade religions, eh?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Told you, first, there's the Bishops' non-negotiables,

So? He still supports the availibility (or at least does not oppose the availibility) of abortaficients. Thus his 'pro-life' credentials are tossed out the proverbial window.

then there's that pro-life statement of his (made *before* he contemplated getting in the race)

It could've been a ploy as he was intending to run for the presidency at some point is obvious that he must have given it some forethought. Hence, this still smacks of being a opportunist flip-flopper or serial turn-coat

coupled with the endorsements of the Susan B. Anthony list and Rick Santorum and Rand Paul,

Again, not substantial. Santorum has supported funding for contraception int he past, including funding for Planned Parenthood as part of 'taking one for the team'. This puts his [Santorum's] prolife credentials in doubt.

mean a lot to me.

I'm sure it does. But again, this is just you and what you FEEL. It's not evidence. It's anecdote, emotion, and opinion. Which, while admirable, does give one a substantial piece of evidence. Or rather it is not a source. Just one's personal opinion.

. . . Also research into the LDS Articles of Faith and the fact that Romney is *not* a "Jack Mormon"

So devout that he apparently sought fit to oppose his own religion and church for year after year by being openly and strongly pro-choice. Yep, I not believe this part.

but was a leader in that organization tends to convince me that he is for morality and not against it.

Again, ignoring his own Temple's and religion's rules consistently year after year belies a dishonest man.

And the fact that he actually has experience in *saving* businesses and organizations and has a pretty good track record there convinces me that he'll be a better choice than Obama. Gov. Romney has "real world" experience over Obama.

Did Obama live in a fictitious world?!

BTW--really like the courage Gov. Romney displays.

You mean like courageously dodging the draft, whilst at the same time supporting the Vietnam War and denouncing those that opposed it.

(Hard to believe that anyone would want to take on trying to save the country after the mess of the last four yearsand the way it has been run down.

Hard to believe, indeed.

I'm also impressed that Gov. Romney has even decided to speak to unfriendly audiences (something that Obama avoids.)

Again, we're glad that YOU are impressed. However, I am not.

I doubt that Obama's negative ads trying to distract us from his failing policies will have much of an effect on me, but of course, that's just me.

Yes; I'm sure that they would either. It is quite apparent you are hook, link, and sinker on the GOP-Neocon bandwagon. Everytime, they put up a puppet that masquerades as a Pro-life Conservative (as Bush did before and McCain did 2008), they managed to convince the sheeple in the GOP to fall for their tricks. This election's going to be a repeat of 2008 like what happened with McSame (McCain), if Mittens does as bad as it looks like he will. I mean, C'mon, GOP-ers are less enthusiastic about Mittens than they were McCain!

You may have other ways of determining who is best for the country and how one can make certain that life, marriage and freedom will win in the 2012 election.

Yes, like actual sources . . .

 

[Davidnic]

Nope. Here are the LDS Articles of Faith (Note #11, #12, the one about obeying laws, and the last one, #13--which sounds a bit like St. Paul's speech):

The Articles of Faith

And about the White Horse Prophecy, I am surprised at y'all for not doing research. (I know I was concerned, and so did the necessary research.) There are some that claim that such a prophecy *never even happened*. Such a prophecy wasn't even written down and even if Joseph Smith said that such a thing would happen, well, Joseph Smith has said a lot of things that never came true (he wasn't the most accurate of people--he even said that an Egyptian Funeral scroll was about Abraham!)

Again, no one is asking you to *become* LDS. All the Bishops want is for Catholics to vote the non-negotiables of life, marriage, and freedom. And all we need to do is vote for an experienced business person who stands a "snow balls chance" at saving the economy--the country.

Oh here's the supposed White Horse Prophecy (there's nothing but hearsay about it.):

The White Horse Prophecy

Exactly what research was not done? Many LDS, including BY believed the White Horse Prophecy. I don't think any rational person believes it. But there are people who equate it with Romney and Beck and seek to play the current issues into a Constitutional crisis of prophetic level. There are many fearmongers in the discussion nationally.

Of course there are fears and concerns and Constitutional issues. But if you don't see how some are playing the Romney white horse thing...well, that's not anyone else not doing research.

I never said anyone asked anyone to become Mormon. You keep saying that like a mantra. No one here said they reason they do not support Romney is he is a Mormon. They said it was because they do not trust him or Obama.

 

[AMDG]

So devout that he apparently sought fit to oppose his own religion and church for year after year by being openly and strongly pro-choice. Yep, I not believe this part.

Again, ignoring his own Temple's and religion's rules consistently year after year belies a dishonest man.

Really? You are accussing him of opposing his religion? What proof do you have for such an accusation (seeing that you don't even know what LDS believe)? Do you know that not following his religion (since he's a highly public person and was once even an LDS bishop) would mean disfellowship at the least (ever lose family and friends and be ostracized--and they do it pretty completely) or excommunication at the worst (it's not like our excommunication--it *is* consigning them to the "outer darkness"). IOW, he *has* followed his own religion's rules--the nation's too.

Did Obama live in a fictitious world?!

You *could* say that (but I've never heard it put that way before.) There is "book learning", which Obama has, and then there's experience, which Gov. Romney has. Gov. Romney was a Repub. having to survive in a totally Dem. government of Mass.--both houses. He managed to survive and do well for the people in Mass. (Obama is Dem and only has one house of the government, Repub. and he *still* can't manage it! He never learned to "work across the aisle"--And it wasn't because no Senator would teach him, Ted Kennedy would, but it's because Obama never took the time to learn--he only voted "present" afterall.) Gov. Romney is a successful businessman and actually saved some failing businesses and orgainizations. (Can you imagine that success belonging to the U.S?--the economy would actually recover, there would be jobs, we could actually *reduce* the debt instead of adding 5 *Trillion* to it) Obama never even had a lemonade stand! No wonder he's doing so poorly!

You mean like courageously dodging the draft, whilst at the same time supporting the Vietnam War and denouncing those that opposed it.

When I was still "wet behind the ears" I used to accuse one of my own beloved grandfathers of "dodging WWI" (I'm from a family that has a proud military history and so I just couldn't understand how one person...) before I found out that there were many official and quite legal reasons that some could not serve and it wasn't "dodging" at all. And since it wasn't really due to "actively dodging" there was no sense of his free speech being used to denounce service to one's country. Actually, that would be kinda hypocritical if done.

Again, we're glad that YOU are impressed. However, I am not.

I *did* say that people may have other choices in seeing that the Bishops' non-negotiables of life, marriage, and freedom are upheld.

Afterall, this election is going to be (like the election of 2010 that swept the Repubs into the House) a referendum on the failed policies (and promises) of Obama. Obama knows it. Why else do you think that there are so many negative ads? Obama simply can't stand on his record, since he doesn't have one. Trouble is that means that the choice is rather stark--either Obama for four more years (and the further destruction of the country) or someone who has a chance at winning and has experience turning a failing business (the country this time) around.

 

[AMDG]

I never said anyone asked anyone to become Mormon. You keep saying that like a mantra. No one here said they reason they do not support Romney is he is a Mormon. They said it was because they do not trust him or Obama.

I say it because for *me* it is a mantra. I say it because I know that for many, many Christians it *is* something that needs to be said.

Oh, you asked what research, well, it's pretty obvious. Even though the nation will say that Gov. Romney's religion means nothing, there's nothing in the Constitution that says we must elect someone of a certain religion and we've had all sorts of Protestants, a Catholic, someone who believes in Black Liberation theology, and I believe there was a president who found communing with God to be "in the great outdoors". But unlike some people, I do not think that a person can compartilize his life. I believe in integrity--that one's religion is integrated into what one does. I do not believe in forced schizophrenia with a split personality. So since Gov. Romney is Mormon (and not just any, but once a LDS bishop) my reasearch is into their beliefs. That's how I came to post the LDS Articles of Faith. And that's the reason I know about the supposed Whitehorse prophecy. (Well actually I first heard of it a few years back when Glenn Beck had that "Restoring Honor" rally in Washington D.C. A few weeks after his announcement, the internet literally "lit up" with with claims that Beck was the fulfillment of the White Horse Prophecy.) Looked into it. Come to find out that there's doubt that it even was made! (Yes even though Brigham Young, and Sandra Tanner, his something great granddaughter reportedly said that it was made.) Read the stupid thing. You are right. No sane person would even *believe* it. "Shoveling gold in the streets". "The White Horse and the Red Horse get together." Oh and don't forget the "Black Horse" and the "Pale Horse." Then there's "the two Popes get together." Riiight.