Can Catholics Vote Libertarian?

Virgil the Roman

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Has Dr Ron Paul dropped out as of yet? If He has, I shall make the choice that aligns with my Catholic faith and choose the most moral candidate that I believe coincides with Catholic Teaching on Subsidiarity and Morals:

Hence, I am going with the Constitution Party and voting for the former Democrat and former Representative from Virginia for president: Mr Virgil Goode.

Mr Goode would be the only candidate for whom I might be able to cast a ballot for in good conscience.

Why? Namely the following:

-He is solidly Pro-Life.

-He is pro-gun/pro-Second Amendment
(I believe as the Roman Catechism says that we've a right to self-defense, as well as to protect others around us from harm; particularly if those include our family, friends, or loved ones; let alone strangers).

-He is pro-Protectionism to some degree.
He wants avoid the mire of Freetradism that The Republicans and Democrats have used to sell out our jobs overseas via out-sourcing.
(Think Nafta and Cafta; they out-sourced jobs to Mexico, because no matter how good quality of a product and low of a price, American workers cannot work for the substandard and dirt-wage that many Third-world labourers could. There can be No competition, no matter what the Freetraders (be they Neocon Republican, Libertarian, or Democrat) say. It's not a 'fair competition'; the deck of cards are already stacked against the American worker without some sort of 'help' to protect the American economy from the outsourcing by the predatory policies of some Mega-corporations, whose primary goal is profit. Profit or 'How cheaply made a product can be manufactured for the lowest possible price, with the highest profit margin'; the people or average worker's well-being does not factor in here. They are but a cog in the wheel of the great machine of Usurious Capitalism or Wage-Slavery.)

-He wants to return power to the states.
(States Rights' decentralises the power of the government amongst the many states and reserves some rights (via the Tenth Amendment) to the states. This is alignment with subsidiarity; giving the lowest competent level of authority the right to govern a particular sphere or utilise a particular power.

-He wants to reform the tax system and plethora of business regulations.
It has been said by some business, that the uncertain regulatory climate and the overly-complicated tax system inhibits business and job growth. (As well as the spectre of tax increases to take place at the beginning of 2013.) I think perhaps, that by simplifying the tax code and code of regulations surrounding, one could create an environment whereby less taxes are not paid and more certainty with regards to business environment.
(E.g. A hypothetical example would be all businesses paying a flat 15% corporate or business income tax regardless of income bracket or size; with no exemptions of any kind whatsoever. This would eliminate any uncertainty and ensure that all companies regardless of size would pay their own share of taxes. Whereas with the current system some businesses pay the top bracket of 35%, with others paying something close to or virtually 0% in Business income taxes).
Now, if the business and economic environment is stablised and businesses are therefore more inclined to hire, then the economy could be, as it were, 'kick-started' again; or otherwise permitted to recover to some degree.

-He wants to phase out and eventually abolish the Federal Reserve.
The Federal Reserve system is a private corporation which has control of America's currency. This is illegal under the Constitution, as this power is reserved by Congress to issue currency. Additionally, since the Federal Reserve has been in existence, it has throughout 20th century by various policies of inflating the currency, printing too many dollars, or artificially controlling the rate of Interest--- has worsened recessions and prevented faster recovery and has devalued the Dollar's worth by some 98% since 1913. The degree to which they had made recessions (e.g. The 'Great Depression) worse is debatable. However, their financial policies directly affect the flow and amount of currency in the economy. That is to say, if they print more money the dollar is devalued, inflation occurs; if they print less money or destroy or take some currency out of circulation, deflation occurs. Both inflation and deflation negatively affect the average citizen, adversely affecting in different ways his wage and his ability to provide for himself and his family.




(N.B. Obama is pro-choice; as is Romney. Despite Romney's opportunistic flipping flopping to the contrary position, given his flipping flopping on numerous issues [e.g. The bailouts of the Auto Industry, T.A.R.P., backing the Union-busting initiative in Ohio under Gov. Kasich, His Anti-gun record, Healthcare [He gave us Romneycare in Massachussets; I see no reason why he won't go back upon his word and do the same for all of America.] Now, I know I cannot in good conscience vote Obama; I do not believe that I can do so for Romney. I do not see much of a difference between He and Obama in economic or social policy. I see them both as spend-thrift Keynesians. And Keynes economics holds the notions that the government must go into debt by intervening in the economy to encourage spending the private sector. To 'jump the economy's engine, if you will. However, such crushing debt, combined with malinvestment do not help or heal the economy but mask the woes of the economy by creating a perceived recovery, artificially. Rather, a 'bubble' is created. Instead of a true recovery, a bubble mask the economic malinvestment. With such bad investments, it will be only a matter of time before the bubble 'bursts' causing another recession (or if it is bad enough, a depression). The solution would to correct the malinvestment and permit the economy to recover naturally, without the artificial intervention of the government that encourages or instigates improper investment. An example of this would the housing bubble. This was encouraged by government intervention in several ways. One Congress mandated that Banks would be REQUIRED by law (or face high fines) to give out loans to lower-income families. Now, the banks knew that such would be a bad investment (i.e. malinvestment); As lower-income families would not be able to pay back the loans (in all likelihood). Now, to help with the housing situation and ensure that every ought to have a home to buy; the Fed. Gov't. had the Fed suppress the interest rate low, to encourage the Housing industry to build a plethora of houses. Now this created a glut of housing. However, this was masked by the plethora of loans given out by banks, who spread out the loans (and the risk) by selling the loans to other banks and other companies. Whenever, too many persons defaulted on or could not pay their loans or investers saw that 'malinvestment', they chose to divest themselves of the housing market and causing the bubble to cave in and eventually collapse.)

This is my view. Granted some of it is opining, whereas other statements are facts (though not cited by specific sources in this post).

Whether one agrees or disagrees with my views regarding this; that is up to them.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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An Addendum to 'The Federal Reserve' segment:
The Constitution Party along with Mr Virgil Goode wants to return the U.S. to a sound system of currency. I.E., One backed by Gold or Silver (or both); that allows the U.S. to have a system wherein our currency is both issued by Congress and has a tangible assets holding it up. Whereas, fiat money in the U.S. has neither of those currently. Fiat currency is back solely by the 'faith' and 'good credit' of the American Federal Government. Such is an intangible and ethereal asset. One which, is not quite as stable as possessing a tangible asset to uphold one's good (in this case, the dollar).


Nota Bene: Again, this is my views. Some of which may be my own person opining; others are solid facts. I do not claim to be logician; nor do I want to be one. I am merely endeavouring to explain, kindly, why I believe what I do; and why I support whomever I am supporting.

May God's Peace be with you,
--Virgil the Roman
 
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AMDG

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This I know. Romney is *not* pro-abortion. Santorum has stated that he upholds family values. The Susan B. Anthony list (to which I belong as a pro-life Catholic) has endorsed him. Although Romney did not sign their pledge (like Santorum, Perry, Bachmann, Cain did) he came out with his own pro-life statement in which he binds himself to the pro-life cause, a pledge to seek only a pro-life VP, choose only pro-life members for his advisors, and choose pro-life federal judges. He has also pledged to repeal and replace ObamaTAX. And as a businessman, he actually saved businesses that were going under--he also was able to save the Olympics. (And it certainly looks like anyone who will be president will have his work cut out for him if he plans to save the U.S.--so it's good that there he has that experience.)

Whereas Ron Paul makes sense particularly about the Fed. (his son Rand has also endorsed Gov. Romney) and although the Constitution Party sounds really nice and definitely supports Catholic views unlike... Under any other circumstances....I know that I cannot afford to give my vote to Obama. The stakes are just too high. (I remember what happened with Ross Perot and I really believe that this will be our last chance to stand up for the Church and stop the attacks.)
 
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Needing_Grace

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AMDG said:
This I know. Romney is *not* pro-abortion.

So, making money from the waste "product" of abortion qualifies as not pro-abortion?

Snipped for brevity and so noted for honesty.

Sent from my iPhone using CF
 
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AMDG

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Here is the endorsement:

SBA List Endorses Mitt Romney | SBA-List

Notice that Romney also pledges to defund Planned Parenthood *and* to reinstate the Mexico City agreement that Obama struck down as soon as he got in office. Obama striking down that agreement put the Vatican and the U.S. at odds. When he struck it down Obama allowed us to fund abortion overseas.
 
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Needing_Grace

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AMDG said:
Here is the endorsement:

SBA List Endorses Mitt Romney | SBA-List

Notice that Romney also pledges to defund Planned Parenthood *and* to reinstate the Mexico City agreement that Obama struck down as soon as he got in office. That agreement put the Vatican and the U.S. at odds. When he struck it down Obama allowed us to fund abortion overseas.

Once again, I don't care one whit who endorses him. I have a brain that God gave to me and I prefer to use it and not let others think for me.

Sent from my iPhone using CF
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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This I know. Romney is *not* pro-abortion.

Here are two of the clearest statements of his position.

• In a debate during his 1994 race against Democratic Sen. Edward Kennedy, Romney said, "I believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country." Referring to the 1973 Supreme Court decision that made abortion legal in every state, Romney added, "I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years, it should be sustained and supported. And I sustain and support that law and support the right of a woman to make that choice."

• In his 2002 campaign for governor, Romney said during a debate, "I will preserve and protect a woman's right to choose and am devoted and dedicated to honoring my word in that regard."

Now he's flipped.

Or claims he has.

I'm interested in why you think he's all anti-abortion-y now. It seems to me, with as much objectivity as I can muster, that he's just a panderer to whichever constituency he's trying to impress at the moment.
 
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Davidnic

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He flipped his position and made money off charging abortion clinics to dispose of people and made cash off of treating people like waste.

AMDG, how come he can flip while also making money off clinics he says he will defund and make money treating people like medical waste..but he is not a liar like you say Obama is. Don't get me wrong, they both lie. But in the interest of intellectual honesty I think the record on Romney's lying and the legitimate questions on his pro-life credentials are more than enough for a Catholic to decide he is not a moral vote.

And, like I said...doesn't that pretty much make him a liar too. Seems pretty clear he is saying whatever will get him elected at whatever point it needs to be said. That is not an indication of a clear pro-life stance. And better than the other guy does not cut it if that better is not actually good. Just because I would not vote for Obama with a gun to my head does not make Romney a moral vote.
 
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AMDG

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Here's Gov. Romney's prolife stand:

Mitt Romney's Prolife Stand

Hmm--he divested himself of any investments connected with stemcell research *before* he ever decided to run for President; of his own accord, he made the prolife statement; *two* prolife groups have decided to endorse him; many unquestioned and totally prolife people have also endorsed; Obama, Planned Parenthood, and NARAL are already running ads attacking Gov. Romney for his prolife stand; and actually the LDS are somewhat family oriented and do follow their Articles of Faith--yep, I think it's a safe bet that Gov. Romney *is* prolife.

And I *know* that Obama isn't prolife at all. (Remember the choice? Evil or the non-negotiables?)
 
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MikeK

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When Obama changes his mind he's a flip-flopping charletan, when Romney does (in a manner which is necesarry in order for him to gain power as a politician) he's sincere. It all makes sence. It's just a coincidence that when Romney becan politicing in liberal Massachusets he was in favor of abortion rights (as one would have to be to get footing there) and when considering a run for the Presidency as a Republican he decided he didn't think it was okay to murder babies anymore. Well, he decided baby-murder by willful abortion was no longer okay, but he's still okay with baby-murder by IVF or abortifacient contraceptives...just like most of the American Republican voting base. What a shocking coincidence.
 
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Davidnic

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AMDG you really do not get that his pro-life stance is a political convenience. So he decided before he ran for president to stop making money off of disposing of baby parts like they were trash...and I am supposed to be all happy about that. Also his previous pro-choice stance that only changed when he had to court the pro-life positions in the people who actually voted in the primaries on a national level...is to be totally ignored?

Yeah I don't think so. You want to trust him. Go right ahead. He either once supported the pro-choice position so he could get political office...not caring for the lives it cost. Or he only supports the pro-life side now for political convenience.

Personally I think he is just as untrustworthy as Obama and will do whatever is necessary, be that supporting Abortion or making money off of disposing of children as trash, to get ahead in life.

So I will vote for neither and be morally comfortable in my judgement when voting for someone who more fully represents a Catholic morality. At least it will be something neither Romney or Obama have been...morally consistent. And I will be secure in the knowledge that the Bishops and Catholic Church in her teaching allow me to make that call. The non-Negotiable video says the vote will be recorded in eternity. I have no problem with a vote that refuses to compromise Catholic principles being recorded in eternity.
 
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AMDG

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Err--considering the climate in the U.S. it's not all that "convenient" being pro-life. Obama, the abortion giant Planned Parenthood, and that abortion group NARAL are *already* running really ugly negative ads concerning Gov. Romneys pro-life stance. When the election was first starting (and the Susan B. Anthony list was having the candidates sign a pro-life pledge) it seems that Gov. Romney had *already* issued his own pro-life stance. No "I want to say that I'm pro-life just so Obama, Planned Parenthood, and NARAL can pummel me and say nasty things".
 
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Davidnic

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He was pro-choice on record in 94. Now he is pro-life. He was pro-life before he was pro-choice and now pro-life again. And in the middle he made money off of supporting companies that made money throwing away babies like trash.


He never would have been elected in Mass being pro-life and he would never have been the Republican candidate being pro-choice. So of course he would say he is pro-life now even if PP and all the cronies came to pummel him. Because otherwise he would never have made it through the primaries in 2008 or 2012 in any way intact as a Republican candidate. So he switched whenever it was convenient for him. And in the middle he made money investing in companies that took aborted children and disposed of them like waste and not people. Then tried to deny that until the paper trail showed his signature on the documents.

So either he is pro-life and did not care if he cost lives by supporting pro-choice to get elected. Or now is pro-choice pretending to be pro-life. And in either case...made money off of people being trash. Personally I think he is neither pro-life or pro-choice...he is pro Romney. Again, that does not mean Obama is better...he is, in many ways, worse. But that does not make the guy who spends C notes made from throwing away babies corpses a moral choice.

So it is pretty plain he is an opportunist who lies to get ahead. If you think that is a moral vote and a trust worthy person...go ahead. But others will disagree and vote third party and be ok.
 
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sylverpiano

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Politicians will say anything at all to get your vote. The religious and conservative voters can be bought cheaply by claiming to be pro-life. The claim does not even seemingly need to be backed up.

Mr. Romney has flipped back and forth on this issue for political gain a number of times, but the conservatives are willing to give him a pass.
Why is this? Why are they convinced that he is telling the truth this time?
 
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AMDG

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Err--people *can* repent. I was once a Dem inspector for an election polling place. In 1995, I repented and amended my life. Peter denied Jesus not once, but three times! He also repented and amended his life. Are we suppose to think that Peter is still in the mud? How about the husband of Blessed Elizabeth LaSeur. He was an atheist before he converted to the Faith and became a priest. Is he still an atheist even though he's a priest?

BTW how come when Obama claims that he "evolved" on one of his positions, it taken as "gospel", but no one else is allowed to change?
 
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MikeK

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BTW how come when Obama claims that he "evolved" on one of his positions, it taken as "gospel", but no one else is allowed to change?

Was it? I remember you going on about it for weeks. I don't think anyone in this discussion is giving Obama a free pass, and I don't think anyone in this discussion thinks that an actively believing and practicing Catholic could justify a vote for Obama with a clear conscience. He is a self-serving opportunist, not at all unlike Mr Romney.

I am aware that people can repent, but I haven't heard that Mr Romney is seeking a ban on IVF or potentially abortifacient means of birth control, have you? Seems to me he doesn't care at all about life but rather appealing to whatever voting block he needs to win over in the moment to propel himself to the next stage.
 
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sylverpiano

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Err--people *can* repent. I was once a Dem inspector for an election polling place. In 1995, I repented and amended my life. Peter denied Jesus not once, but three times! He also repented and amended his life. Are we suppose to think that Peter is still in the mud? How about the husband of Blessed Elizabeth LaSeur. He was an atheist before he converted to the Faith and became a priest. Is he still an atheist even though he's a priest?

BTW how come when Obama claims that he "evolved" on one of his positions, it taken as "gospel", but no one else is allowed to change?

Back to deflection again I see.

All you need do when your candidate is being taken to task is to post that the opposing candidate is treated differently for the same, or worse behavior.

Utter nonsense.

I have never given Mr. Obama a pass, nor have I ever accepted a statement of his as "gospel." I fact check everything before making a decision.

The facts in evidence here is that Mr. Romney blows with the political wind on this issue and has flopped back and forth on the record and in public speech a few times. This damages his credibility as far as I am concerned.

Before you deflect once again and make some vague charge about Mr. Obama changing jis mond on an issue: I do not find Mr. Obama credible either.

I don't drink Kool Aide.......
 
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