Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

[Dr. Jack]

The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin.

Chapter III of the WCF states:

"I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]"

But making such a statement without clear demonstration on just how this actually occurs, is not sufficient.

The WCF also states:

"VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extends or withholds mercy, as he pleases, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18]that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]"

We see above the terms, "according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will", and "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care" as though any questioning of this "mystery" brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.

It is not enough to simply state a doctrinal position and then hide under the supposed umbrella of the questioning the sovereignty of God to escape the responsibility of defining ones position.

Each of us must be able to stand on sound doctrine, and be ready to give an answer when we enter the arena of apologetics.

My challenge to those who subscribe to Reformed Theology is to explain how Adam was able to chose sin, (or not to sin), if he was already decreed by God to sin.

 

[Dave L]

Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

Many wrestle believing free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. But I think the Westminster Confession, and the London Baptist confession solved this paradox nearly 400 years ago. From the LBC consider:

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18

2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5

3 Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11

4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5


= We freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin.

Chapter III of the WCF states:

"I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]"

But making such a statement without clear demonstration on just how this actually occurs, is not sufficient.

The WCF also states:

"VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extends or withholds mercy, as he pleases, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18]that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]"

We see above the terms, "according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will", and "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care" as though any questioning of this "mystery" brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.

It is not enough to simply state a doctrinal position and then hide under the supposed umbrella of the questioning the sovereignty of God to escape the responsibility of defining ones position.

Each of us must be able to stand on sound doctrine, and be ready to give an answer when we enter the arena of apologetics.

My challenge to those who subscribe to Reformed Theology is to explain how Adam was able to chose sin, (or not to sin), if he was already decreed by God to sin.

You might want to read C. S. Lewis's MERE CHRISTIANITY.

As he put it, "Seeing someone hit his thumb with a hammer is NOT the same thing as seeing him do it."

How our free will fits in with God's eternal NOW is a mystery we will never understand in this world, and nobody will care about in the next.

 

[Dave L]

You might want to read C. S. Lewis's MERE CHRISTIANITY.

As he put it, "Seeing someone hit his thumb with a hammer is NOT the same thing as seeing him do it."

How our free will fits in with God's eternal NOW is a mystery we will never understand in this world, and nobody will care about in the next.

You might want to study scripture instead.

 

[Monk Brendan]

You might want to study scripture instead.

Where did you get the idea that I don't?

Or is it only to you that the Word of God has come.

 

[Dave L]

Where did you get the idea that I don't?

Or is it only to you that the Word of God has come.

You seem to put more stock in questionable authors for your position than you do scripture.

 

[Hammster]

Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

Yes

 

[Monk Brendan]

You seem to put more stock in questionable authors for your position than you do scripture.

Can you tell me what questionable authors have I quoted, please?

And have you read any of C. S. Lewis?

 

[Dave L]

Can you tell me what questionable authors have I quoted, please?

And have you read any of C. S. Lewis?

You seem to favor CS over the clear statements of scripture.

 

[Monk Brendan]

||Ignorance of the Scriptures is the root of all error. J. C. Ryle\\

ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM said it first in the 4th century.

"Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ!"

 

[Monk Brendan]

You seem to favor CS over the clear statements of scripture.

Just what is wrong with what CSL said, and how does it against the Bible?
Or do you really have any idea?

 

[Dave L]

Just what is wrong with what CSL said, and how does it against the Bible?
Or do you really have any idea?

You need to study a few alternative views. I'm a no body and I answered your post in my first reply. Just from a little study of the scriptures.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin.

No, that is not the purpose of compatiblism, but for those like me who affirm both the sovereignty of God and limited free will based on Scripture, compatiblism is the philosophical term (among other philosophical terms used to describe free will) used to describe the Biblical mystery that is the will of God in relationship to the will of man. Compatibilism is Biblical, pure and simple, and whether we are able to satisfactorily reconcile these dual truths does not make them any the less true. The term is like so many other terms, a shorthand for expressing a [lengthy] concept. The purpose of the term applied to theology is to express a full Biblical truth, namely that God is sovereign and people have limited free will. Most often the primary focus of limitation involves the "nature" of a will and the "desires" of a will.

 

[Butch5]

The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin.

Chapter III of the WCF states:

"I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]"

But making such a statement without clear demonstration on just how this actually occurs, is not sufficient.

The WCF also states:

"VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extends or withholds mercy, as he pleases, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18]that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]"

We see above the terms, "according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will", and "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care" as though any questioning of this "mystery" brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.

It is not enough to simply state a doctrinal position and then hide under the supposed umbrella of the questioning the sovereignty of God to escape the responsibility of defining ones position.

Each of us must be able to stand on sound doctrine, and be ready to give an answer when we enter the arena of apologetics.

My challenge to those who subscribe to Reformed Theology is to explain how Adam was able to chose sin, (or not to sin), if he was already decreed by God to sin.

They didn't want it challenged because it's a blatant contradiction. It's like today there are doctrines like on these forums that are simply not allowed to be discussed. The reason is that they can't be defended. If they could be they wouldn't be put of limits.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

Many wrestle believing free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. But I think the Westminster Confession, and the London Baptist confession solved this paradox nearly 400 years ago. From the LBC consider:

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18

2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5

3 Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11

4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5


= We freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

So God controlled what Adam based his "choice" upon. How did God "control" Adam's choice?

 

[OzSpen]

The purpose of "Compatiblism" is reconcile the "decree of God" for Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden, with Adam having a will, and choosing to sin, or not sin.

Chapter III of the WCF states:

"I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]"

But making such a statement without clear demonstration on just how this actually occurs, is not sufficient.

The WCF also states:

"VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extends or withholds mercy, as he pleases, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18]that men, attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]"

We see above the terms, "according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will", and "The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care" as though any questioning of this "mystery" brings forth the very wrath, and judgment of God.

It is not enough to simply state a doctrinal position and then hide under the supposed umbrella of the questioning the sovereignty of God to escape the responsibility of defining ones position.

Each of us must be able to stand on sound doctrine, and be ready to give an answer when we enter the arena of apologetics.

My challenge to those who subscribe to Reformed Theology is to explain how Adam was able to chose sin, (or not to sin), if he was already decreed by God to sin.

Dr Jack,

What do you mean by God ORDAINED Adam to sin?

Oz

 

[Dr. Jack]

Dr Jack,

What do you mean by God ORDAINED Adam to sin?

Oz

Ask the people that subscribe to the WCF.

 

[OzSpen]

Ask the people that subscribe to the WCF.

Sorry, but I'm asking you.

 

[Monk Brendan]

You need to study a few alternative views. I'm a no body and I answered your post in my first reply. Just from a little study of the scriptures.

Actually, you didn't.

 

[frogoon234]

Free Will compatible with Sovereignty

Many wrestle believing free will is incompatible with Divine Sovereignty. But I think the Westminster Confession, and the London Baptist confession solved this paradox nearly 400 years ago. From the LBC consider:

CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

1 Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18

2 James 1:13; 1 John 1:5

3 Acts 4:27,28; John 19:11

4 Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3-5


= We freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

this adds information to the issue of the OP but it doesn't really answer the OP. By this definition there is no such thing as free will. I believe God/Jesus has the power to forget combinations on the chess board (mastering chess is a matter of memorizing 1000s of patterns) and sometimes he willingly loses some chess matches by purposely and temporarily losing information which greatly increases the chance of him losing a particular chess match. All this being said we need to treat reality as important and we all need to accept Jesus's sacrifice on the cross. We are to compel others towards Christ.