Can anything stop Catholic infighting?

Michie

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Specifically, Catholics in the West- and that includes those in the Vatican- have adopted a liberal- versus- conservative mindset that has fractured non-Catholic denominations. It's as if Christians are required to choose between two set menus, in which social Justice comes with a side salad of transgender blessings- or, alternatively, you can opt with solemn liturgy with free market seasoning.

Continued below.
UK’s CH: Can anything stop Catholic infighting?
 

Davidnic

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Time heals. Yes in the internet age fractures can spread so fast. But the Lord provides. I fear it will get worse before it gets better. But the Lord leads.
 
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Michie

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Only if we are willing to listen and let go of our beloved labels.
Time heals. Yes in the internet age fractures can spread so fast. But the Lord provides. I fear it will get worse before it gets better. But the Lord leads.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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There are many terms, but it all boils down to the oldest one and that's sound doctrine and heresy.
As long as people embrace and spread heresies the divide will continue to develop until we see a major schism.
This counts at least as much for clergy as it does for laity or perhaps even more so.

God is in charge of the events however and all trials we'll face on earth and in Roma is allowed by God.
Those who love Christ will win at the end of the day.

Glory to Christ!
 
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Michie

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What gets me is that this infighting is among brethern that are supposed to believe the same thing. Yet they attack one another and blithely put up with heresy and those that constantly test the teachings of the Church. It's bizarre. I remember one of the things that made me convert was the disagreement and dissent in some protestant churches. I do not see a lot of difference in the Catholic Church anymore. But I'm not one to ignore these things as some seem to. I cannot help but think just the different forums here on the board claiming their personal brand of Catholicism would be highly displeasing to the Pope. It is not just the internet as some claim. It is a serious problem within the Church in daily life. The witness is not a good one imo.
There are many terms, but it all boils down to the oldest one and that's sound doctrine and heresy.
As long as people embrace and spread heresies the divide will continue to develop until we see a major schism.
This counts at least as much for clergy as it does for laity or perhaps even more so.

God is in charge of the events however and all trials we'll face on earth and in Roma is allowed by God.
Those who love Christ will win at the end of the day.

Glory to Christ!
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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What gets me is that this infighting is among brethern that are supposed to believe the same thing. Yet they attack one another and blithely put up with heresy and those that constantly test the teachings of the Church. It's bizarre. I remember one of the things that made me convert was the disagreement and dissent in some protestant churches. I do not see a lot of difference in the Catholic Church anymore. But I'm not one to ignore these things as some seem to. I cannot help but think just the different forums here on the board claiming their personal brand of Catholicism would be highly displeasing to the Pope. It is not just the internet as some claim. It is a serious problem within the Church in daily life. The witness is not a good one imo.

The pope, which one?
Sadly the confusion and disorientation goes all the way up to the chair of St Peter in Rome.
The pope('s) or at least the papal situation is part of the problem itself.
 
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Michie

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The pope, which one?
Sadly the confusion and disorientation goes all the way up to the chair of St Peter in Rome.
The pope('s) or at least the papal situation is part of the problem itself.
Well I do not disagree with that. Clarity is always a good thing imo.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Well I do not disagree with that. Clarity is always a good thing imo.

There is always the possibility that we're heading into the Catholic eschatology too.
In the gospels Jesus do ask rhetorically if he'll find the faith when he comes back to the earth.

This indicates that something big will happen to the church before the 2nd coming. Perhaps is this "something big" about to happen now adays.
 
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LivingWordUnity

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There is always the possibility that we're heading into the Catholic eschatology too.
In the gospels Jesus do ask rhetorically if he'll find the faith when he comes back to the earth.

This indicates that something big will happen to the church before the 2nd coming. Perhaps is this "something big" about to happen now adays.
Today already looks like how the Catechism describes the time of the Antichrist.

Catechism of the Catholic Church, 675
"Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the 'mystery of iniquity' in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh."

And there's also this:

Cardinal Karol Wojtyla (future St. John Paul II)
“We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel.
 
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Michie

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From the article:

Damien also makes some suggestions. Here are the first two of the four he offers:

I won't presume to suggest a route out of this mess, but I can think of some necessary- but - not - sufficient steps that the Church should take as an insurance against going down the route of the Anglican Communion.

First, liberal Catholics must accept that they are not going to get women priests or gay marriage. Ever. The Church's ruling on these matters is absolutely definitive. Married priests fall into a seperate category: I sometimes think that if Francis had pushed through this change, instead of entering the quagmire of divorce and Communion, he might have been surprised how many orthodox Catholics supported him.

Second, the Tridentine Mass must not be banned again. That would be a betrayal to those Traditionalist priests and lay people who stayed faithful to papal authority during the decades they were treated as second class citizens by their own pastors.

Can anything stop Catholic infighting? | CatholicHerald.co.uk
 
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Michie

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From the article:

Damien also makes some suggestions. Here are the first two of the four he offers:

I won't presume to suggest a route out of this mess, but I can think of some necessary- but - not - sufficient steps that the Church should take as an insurance against going down the route of the Anglican Communion.

First, liberal Catholics must accept that they are not going to get women priests or gay marriage. Ever. The Church's ruling on these matters is absolutely definitive. Married priests fall into a seperate category: I sometimes think that if Francis had pushed through this change, instead of entering the quagmire of divorce and Communion, he might have been surprised how many orthodox Catholics supported him.

Second, the Tridentine Mass must not be banned again. That would be a betrayal to those Traditionalist priests and lay people who stayed faithful to papal authority during the decades they were treated as second class citizens by their own pastors.

Can anything stop Catholic infighting? | CatholicHerald.co.uk
 
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pdudgeon

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What gets me is that this infighting is among brethern that are supposed to believe the same thing. Yet they attack one another and blithely put up with heresy and those that constantly test the teachings of the Church. It's bizarre. I remember one of the things that made me convert was the disagreement and dissent in some protestant churches. I do not see a lot of difference in the Catholic Church anymore. But I'm not one to ignore these things as some seem to. I cannot help but think just the different forums here on the board claiming their personal brand of Catholicism would be highly displeasing to the Pope. It is not just the internet as some claim. It is a serious problem within the Church in daily life. The witness is not a good one imo.
I think we understand where you're coming from, Michie. And yes, many years ago there wasn't as open an emphasis on the social gospel. but nonetheless, the emphasis has always been there, even from the beginning of the Church, as a carry-over from the disputes between the various schools of Jewish thought.
Certainly it's much easier to ignore the social gospel, and many parishes do exactly that and rub along just fine. But seeing as how we have a judgment coming, that won't always be the case.
 
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NewLove

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The only thing that I can see stopping it would be for the extreme liberal Catholic and traditional Catholic communities to grow up and concede that they are both gravely wrong and their arguments are built on a foundation of Earthly pride and preference rather than sincere faith.

Thankfully, these communities are far smaller than the internet would have use believe. Anonymity and the opportunity to talk. If without displaying one's actions seems to encourage extremists.
 
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StevenMerten

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I think we have to ask ourselves, 'What Would Jesus Do?' about God authorized Church leaders, and the flock, in fighting.

NAB MAT 21:37
"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, "They will respect my son.' When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!" With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."

NAB MAT 23:2
Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.

NAB MAT 12:14
When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.

NAB MAT 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. (But) these you should have done, without neglecting the others. Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel! "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones and every kind of filth. Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets' blood.' Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out! You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

NAB MAT 5:20
I tell you, unless your holiness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of God."

NAB MAT 23:12
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, but whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You shut the doors of the kingdom of God in men's faces, neither entering yourselves nor admitting those who are trying to enter. Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you frauds! You travel over sea and land to make a convert, but once he is converted you make a devil of him twice as wicked as yourselves.
 
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pdudgeon

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What gets me is that this infighting is among brethern that are supposed to believe the same thing. Yet they attack one another and blithely put up with heresy and those that constantly test the teachings of the Church. It's bizarre. I remember one of the things that made me convert was the disagreement and dissent in some protestant churches. I do not see a lot of difference in the Catholic Church anymore. But I'm not one to ignore these things as some seem to. I cannot help but think just the different forums here on the board claiming their personal brand of Catholicism would be highly displeasing to the Pope. It is not just the internet as some claim. It is a serious problem within the Church in daily life. The witness is not a good one imo.
I have no trouble agreeing with what you're saying here, but I think we're coming into that agreement from two different sides, and expecting 2 different outcomes as well.
 
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Michie

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I think the only outcome is the one the Church condones and teaches. Anything else seems to be a waste of time. We cannot continue to selectively practice our Christianity to only those we like or agree with. Jesus said that is no better than a pagan's behavior. We know there is room in the Church for all under her teachings of course. But entertaining fantasies of changing things that cannot be changed and letting politics and labels affect our faith seems to be not what Catholicism asks of us at all. It's pretty laughable to watch even from a catholic perspective let someone outside of it.
 
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StevenMerten

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Time heals. Yes in the internet age fractures can spread so fast. But the Lord provides. I fear it will get worse before it gets better. But the Lord leads.

NAB3 REV 7:8 Triumph of the Elect.
After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. They cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation comes from our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb.” All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God, and exclaimed: “Amen. Blessing and glory, wisdom and thanksgiving, honor, power, and might be to our God forever and ever. Amen.” Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, “These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. “For this reason they stand before God’s throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them. They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them. For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life-giving water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

NAB2 MAR 11:9
Those preceding him as well as those following kept crying out: “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is to come! Hosanna in the highest!”

NAB MAT 6:9 The Lord's Prayer
"This is how you are to pray: 'Our Father in heaven hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven ...//...
Subject us not to trial but deliver us from the evil one.'


NAB3 JOH 17:11 Prayer of Jesus
I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for the ones you have given me, because they are yours, and everything of mine is yours and everything of yours is mine, and I have been glorified in them. And now I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, while I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are. When I was with them I protected them in your name that you gave me, and I guarded them, and none of them was lost except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely. I gave them your word, and the world hated them, because they do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that you keep them from the evil one. They do not belong to the world any more than I belong to the world. Consecrate them in the truth. Your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I sent them into the world. And I consecrate myself for them, so that they also may be consecrated in truth.

NAB3 MAT 5:1
When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain, and after he had sat down, his disciples came to him. He began to teach them, saying: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
 
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pdudgeon

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I think the only outcome is the one the Church condones and teaches. Anything else seems to be a waste of time. We cannot continue to selectively practice our Christianity to only those we like or agree with. Jesus said that is no better than a pagan's behavior. We know there is room in the Church for all under her teachings of course. But entertaining fantasies of changing things that cannot be changed and letting politics and labels affect our faith seems to be not what Catholicism asks of us at all. It's pretty laughable to watch even from a catholic perspective let someone outside of it.
Michie, with due respect, from the way I'm reading your quoted post it seems to me as though you are again cheering for both teams.

On the one hand you applaud the Church for teaching what it believes, and you encourage the Church to reach out to more people.
That's good.
But then you turn around and say that it's impossible to expect those who are outside the Church to adopt those same Catholic beliefs as their own.
ie " entertaining fantasies of things that cannot be changed".
Am I reading you wrong?

If that were indeed true that change is impossible, why then would Christ give His followers the Great Commission and expect them to change the world?
 
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