Can anything be done to reverse the trend of 70%+ of Christian youth leaving the Church after 18?

[JoeP222w]

I'd hope so, but there are many conflicting messages. Some say you are saved by faith not works. ..so being other centered, even devoting your life to the care of others, counts for nothing if you don't have the correct faith. Yet it is also said faith is a gift from God.
So, a good person could pray to God for years for faith, and give up or die before they received it. Then they would be condemned.
These kids leaving the church are doing so because they have nothing to hang their belief on, in my opinion. They've learned the stories of the Bible, but without the gift of faith, it's no different than learning the stories of Odin or Zeus.

"So, a good person could pray to God for years for faith, and give up or die before they received it. Then they would be condemned."

The problem is that that person does not even exist.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Our actions don't save us. His do. "Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.” (John 13:8)

So does God choose who to save and who to condemn? Do we have a choice or are some condemned from birth?

 

[rakovsky]

Hi Joe

"You are saying that a youth who accepts Jesus and participates in depth in church life is a goat and fails to be a Christian?"

No. Claiming that you have "accepted Jesus" is not definitive proof that one has been saved and is being regenerate by God.

In the article it says that the youth did accept Jesus, not that they just claimed to.
If the person accepts Jesus, it means that they believe. And if they believe, it means they have faith. So the only problem would be if their acceptance and faith were dead, which James says is a case where works are lacking.

and relentless pursuit of holiness, and a great burden for the lost to know the Lord Jesus Christ.

Have you heard of the hyper Calvinists who teach that they don't have responsibility to evangelize because of Predestination?
The FundamentallyReformed website discusses them.


I am confused what you mean here:

I am not questioning the youth faith in a general sense. But if you can examine someone's life and see no fruit of repentance, then it is fairly certain that they are unregenerate and lost.

And far too many youth in the church that does not correctly proclaim the gospel are going astray because the church thinks that they have to entertain the youth into the Kingdom of God, rather than calling them to repent of their sins and surrender to Jesus Christ. Repentance is not often preached in many churches. In far too many churches, Jesus is preached as an "add-on" feature to make your life better, to make you healthy, wealthy and wise. Jesus is far greater than an "add-on" you tack on to your life. If one trusts in Him, He will radically transform a person, so that they no longer love their sin, and that they will seek to obey Him, not because it justifies them before Him, but out of pure and holy love. And so when trial and tribulations come, they will not fall away, because their house has been built on the Rock and not shifting sand.

 

[JoeP222w]

So does God choose who to save and who to condemn? Do we have a choice or are some condemned from birth?

John 3:17-18 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


All are condemned from birth, as man is born into an inherent sin nature. God's choice is to the one He chooses to save. He does not choose who to condemn, because man is already condemned.

 

[JoeP222w]

In the article it says that the youth did accept Jesus, not that they just claimed to.
If the person accepts Jesus, it means that they believe. And if they believe, it means they have faith. So the only problem would be if their acceptance and faith were dead, which James says is a case where works are lacking.

Have you heard of the hyper Calvinists who teach that they don't have responsibility to evangelize because of Predestinayion?
The FundamentallyReformed website discusses them.

I am confused what you mean here:

"In the article it says that the youth did accept Jesus, not that they just claimed to."

Only God knows the heart of the individual. At best, we can only know what a person claims. We may see fruit of salvation, but seeing or not seeing fruit is not an absolute evidence.

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"If the person accepts Jesus, it means that they believe."

Again, I don't see where the Bible uses the term "accepts", when it comes to faith in Christ Jesus.

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"Have you heard of the hyper Calvinists who teach that they don't have responsibility to evangelize because of Predestinayion?"

Yes, I have heard of this. Not sure why you mention this.

I could be wrong, but are you implying that I am a hyper-Calvinist, that I may be implying that we should not evangelize?

If that is the case, I never said that, nor do I believe that, because Jesus commands us to proclaim the gospel to all nations and make disciples. Evangelism is very important commandment to follow. If you were not accusing me of hyper-Calvinism, then please disregard these latter statements of mine.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

John 3:17-18 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Your last paragraph sounds very Calvinist. ..God chooses a few, and there's nothing for the rest.

Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


All are condemned from birth, as man is born into an inherent sin nature. God's choice is to the one He chooses to save. He does not choose who to condemn, because man is already condemned.

So there's nothing we can do. God created us to torture us, and he picks a few to save, but ignores the prayers of the rest.

 

[JoeP222w]

So there's nothing we can do. God created us to torture us, and he picks a few to save, but ignores the prayers of the rest.

Mischaracterization and Straw Man.

God transforms the heart, the elect respond to His transformation. God initiates the regenerate heart, the response is repentance and faith in Christ.
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"God created us to torture us,"

Great misunderstanding of God's justice and righteousness. God does not "torture" people in Hell, as if He is some Sadist. Hell is just and righteous punishment for rebel sinners who hated the holy, perfect and righteous God. No one will be in Hell with an excuse that they sought after God.

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"he picks a few to save"

Another great misunderstanding. Nowhere is the Bible are the elect numbered. So to claim a "few" to save is a completely inaccurate statement. No one knows who the elect are except God.

The great glory of God is that He even saves one person. He is under no obligation to rebel sinners. No one, not one person is "owed" salvation.

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"ignores the prayers of the rest"

Another complete misunderstanding.

The lost and unregenerate do not pray to God for mercy and grace. They hate Him and they will eternally hate Him. That is the point of the Romans 3:10-12 passage. No one seeks God or prays to God of their own initiative. After an eternity in Hell, they will stay hate God.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Mischaracterization and Straw Man.

God transforms the heart, the elect respond to His transformation. God initiates the regenerate heart, the response is repentance and faith in Christ.
------
"God created us to torture us,"

Great misunderstanding of God's justice and righteousness. God does not "torture" people in Hell, as if He is some Sadist. Hell is just and righteous punishment for rebel sinners who hated the holy, perfect and righteous God. No one will be in Hell with an excuse that they sought after God.

------
"he picks a few to save"

Another great misunderstanding. Nowhere is the Bible are the elect numbered. So to claim a "few" to save is a completely inaccurate statement. No one knows who the elect are except God.

The great glory of God is that He even saves one person. He is under no obligation to rebel sinners. No one, not one person is "owed" salvation.

-------
"ignores the prayers of the rest"

Another complete misunderstanding.

The lost and unregenerate do not pray to God for mercy and grace. They hate Him and they will eternally hate Him. That is the point of the Romans 3:10-12 passage. No one seeks God or prays to God of their own initiative. After an eternity in Hell, they will stay hate God.

Then what's going on in my case? Ivery prayed, searched, worshipped, and longed to meet God for over 40 years. Despite this I have no faith that He exists. I don't hate Him, I just don't think He's real. I ask Him to show me himself, give me a measure of faith, etc, but get no response. Do I conclude I'm not chosen?

 

[JoeP222w]

Then what's going on in my case? Ivery prayed, searched, worshipped, and longed to meet God for over 40 years. Despite this I have no faith that He exists. I don't hate Him, I just don't think He's real. I ask Him to show me himself, give me a measure of faith, etc, but get no response. Do I conclude I'm not chosen?

Well, the Bible may very well describe you:

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

You wrote yourself that you don't think He is real. So how is it that you can pray, search or worship Him if you don't believe He is real?

It sounds like you may be dealing with a pride issue as well, in that you are demanding that God show Himself to you, as if God is obliged to you. The Bible says that God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. (I wrote "sounds like", I don't truly know your heart).

I have no idea if you are elect or not. No one knows who is God's elect. By God's grace, I would never claim to know if someone is God's elect or not.

I do not know your heart. Anyone who claims to know someone else's heart is confused or a liar. But we can examine what someone displays to the world, and that can be indicators of a heart condition, but not absolute proof.

My comments are based on what you wrote and, by God's grace, what He says in His word.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Well, the Bible may very well describe you:

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

You wrote yourself that you don't think He is real. So how is it that you can pray, search or worship Him if you don't believe He is real?

It sounds like you may be dealing with a pride issue as well, in that you are demanding that God show Himself to you, as if God is obliged to you. The Bible says that God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. (I wrote "sounds like", I don't truly know your heart).

I have no idea if you are elect or not. No one knows who is God's elect. By God's grace, I would never claim to know if someone is God's elect or not.

I do not know your heart. Anyone who claims to know someone else's heart is confused or a liar. But we can examine what someone displays to the world, and that can be indicators of a heart condition, but not absolute proof.

My comments are based on what you wrote and, by God's grace, what He says in His word.

I pray because I hope He is real, I pray asking for faith. What should I do instead? Stop ?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Then what's going on in my case? Ivery prayed, searched, worshipped, and longed to meet God for over 40 years. Despite this I have no faith that He exists. I don't hate Him, I just don't think He's real. I ask Him to show me himself, give me a measure of faith, etc, but get no response. Do I conclude I'm not chosen?

Maybe you are looking one way while he is showing Himself in another... for example, the fact that we woke up this morning and were given another day of life is through God's Grace. That may be a bit to 'ethereal' so how about things that happen in your life that, upon looking back on them, you see a blessing that wasn't altogether apparent at the time. For myself, I can see many but the thing is, you have to be looking for them. Blessings from God happen everyday but most people are oblivious to them because they only focus on the negatives in life. For example, my wife was in a car accident a month after I met her and I've taken care of her ever since. The blessing in this for me, is that I had a selfish heart prior to meeting her and because of what God allowed to happened, I have learned selflessness and what true love is... you know, Praise Him in the Storm. Our first house burned down Dec. 20th 1993 and we lost all that we owned... blessing was that because insurance built us a beautiful new house, we were able to easily sell it a year later when I unexpectedly lost my job and we had to relocate to another province for work... a much better job, I may add, another blessing. Perspective is everything when seeking God.. to a large degree He will appear to us as we perceive Him... as an unloving aloof being to those that only see misery in their lives or as a loving personal God to those that see His true character and recognize all good things as from Him.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I pray because I hope He is real, I pray asking for faith. What should I do instead? Stop ?

Keep the faith, God is not forsaking you He is testing your loyalty to Him. When I have reached my limit in dealing with seemingly impossible situations and have completely surrendered to Him, is when I have been blessed with what I needed. But it took utter destruction of my pride for God to work in me.
Think of the story of Job, one of my all time Biblical heroes... even when it seemed that God was cursing him beyond measure, we see His faithfulness in keeping Job and eventually blessing him more abundantly than at the beginning. But, there's is a key to Job's story and that is his unwavering faith that God's ways are always Righteous. "The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away..." not for our punishment but for our good.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Then what's going on in my case? Ivery prayed, searched, worshipped, and longed to meet God for over 40 years. Despite this I have no faith that He exists. I don't hate Him, I just don't think He's real. I ask Him to show me himself, give me a measure of faith, etc, but get no response. Do I conclude I'm not chosen?

My best guess, being a lot like you at one point many years ago, is that you are trying to come to Him on your terms and maintain control. Without submission there is no way to know Him. In other words, the King won't say how high when you say jump. . .

On your knees with all humility is how you being this. Intellect is never the issue. The will always is the issue. "They will be done" is the place to start.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Then what's going on in my case? Ivery prayed, searched, worshipped, and longed to meet God for over 40 years. Despite this I have no faith that He exists. I don't hate Him, I just don't think He's real. I ask Him to show me himself, give me a measure of faith, etc, but get no response. Do I conclude I'm not chosen?

Mountain,

No, don't conclude that you're not chosen. What you do is comes to terms with the fact that whatever God's manifestation is going to be, it isn't going to be one that is directly observable, quantifiable, classifiable, or otherwise empirically (or emotively) pronounced. Rather, it will be one that is received and experienced within the warp and woof of everyday life and interaction with the people of His Church and with His Word. If you can have that, you have what the rest of us have (despite overly glorious claims to the contrary by various Christians who deny what I've just said above).

P.S. It also helps if one can knock the notion out of one's mind that there is such a thing a singular 'Scientific Method,' or that facts come to us theory-free.

Just say'n.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Mountain,

No, you don't conclude that you're not chosen. What you do is comes to terms with the fact that whatever God's manifestation is going to be, it isn't going to be one that is directly observable, quantifiable, classifiable, or otherwise empirically (or emotively) pronounced. Rather, it will be one that is received and experienced within the warp and woof of everyday life and interaction with the people of His Church and with His Word. If you can have that, you have what the rest of us have (despite overly glorious claims to the contrary by various Christians who deny what I've just said above).

P.S. It also helps if one can knock the notion out of one's mind that there is such a thing a singular 'Scientific Method,' or that facts come to us theory-free.

Just say'n.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

I think any of us can do is speak for ourselves, right? Because you say you haven't experienced any "directly observable, quantifiable, classifiable, or otherwise empirically (or emotively) pronounced" manifestations of God working in you life, does not exclude it from being someone else's reality and experience.

Btw, interesting avatar for a Christian...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In the article it says that the youth did accept Jesus, not that they just claimed to.

"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." (Romans 9)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm both Catholic and agnostic, struggling with the realization that I don't truly believe in God despite decades of trying. My kids are still young .
While I don't suspect hell is visible from heaven, if such places exist , in heaven one would notice the absence of their loved ones. You'd have to conclude they all didn't make it. I don't understand then how one could truly be happy if they knew their lover ones were suffering

You don't hear much about a RC also being agnostic. What belief were you before you became a RC?
It just seems that is a contradiction in Theology or at the least, confusing?

...........................................................................

.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

You don't hear much about a RC also being agnostic. What belief were you before you became a RC?
It just seems that is a contradiction in Theology or at the least, confusing?

...........................................................................

.

I am RC from childhood. I began doubting in God's existence at around 7, but haven't wanted to give up on the idea so I continue to attend Mass, pray, etc. I did take a few years to explore other branches of Christianity but that didn't get me closer to faith. So I've been a practicing Catholic agnostic for 41 years.
It's not that uncommon I've found to find people who regularly attend church who still doubt. .most just prefer to keep it quiet.
I've just been struggling with it long enough I thought I'd start discussing it here.

 

[rakovsky]

Joe,

"In the article it says that the youth did accept Jesus, not that they just claimed to."

Only God knows the heart of the individual. At best, we can only know what a person claims. We may see fruit of salvation, but seeing or not seeing fruit is not an absolute evidence.

I am familiar with this apologetic by "once saved always saved" apologetics. It says that the person didn't "really" believe if he or she fell away OR that they will eventually come back if they did believe.

It's a tough apologetic to disprove, because you are right that we aren't inside their mind or to see if they love Jesus. But it's also a rather "paranoid", excessively cynical apologetic. You could have hundreds of teens raised their whole life to believe, falling down before crosses in tears and prayer, pass lie detector tests saying that they believe in Jesus, watch them totally on their own with no prodding do Christian actions like private prayer or going to a soup kitchen, and the "once saved always saved" proponent could still claim that the children didn't "really" believe that Jesus was Messiah and that it was all an act.

Personally I find all those "signs" that I just mentioned to be good proofs. If a person is raised from birth to believe something and they always say that they do, I think it's a strong proof that they are honest about this, since being raised from birth about something ingrains it in the person.

HOWEVER, unfortunately I know that for that same reason Calvinism can be intensely ingrained in people as well. There is a teaching among the rabbis:

You shall not turn aside from the sentence which they shall declare to you to the right hand nor to the left. If they tell you that the right hand is right and the left hand left, listen to them, and even if they shall tell you that the right hand is left and the left hand right.(Midrash Rabbah - The Song of Songs 1:18)​

(SEE: http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/48915687.html) Of course, there are dissenting opinions among rabbis on that teaching too.

There are also Calvinists who have been so ingrained in their system that they have difficulty going against it. Claiming that NO ONE who has sincerely believed could be lost is a good example. Another good example are the extreme apologetics about Calvin's repressive rule in Geneva. Another example is the way that some Calvinists will defend Calvin's mistaken exegeses in cases where I expect they would not have reached the same conclusion themselves that Calvin did. Just as the rabbis could teach that the "right hand" is"left", Calvin said that "rock" in 1 Cor 10:3-4 means "stream of water".

Feel free to give your own answers here:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...angelicals-presbysterians-methodists.7934273/

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"If the person accepts Jesus, it means that they believe."

Again, I don't see where the Bible uses the term "accepts", when it comes to faith in Christ Jesus.

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The Bible doesn't use the terms Jewish or Israelite when it comes to Jesus of Nazareth, even though we know that Jesus is Jewish because he descended from David on his mother's side.

If He was the Messianic Son of David, He was Jewish, and if thousands of professed Christian teens do accept Jesus as the Messiah, it means that they believe in him.

Bible Verses About Accepting Christ
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Accepting-Christ/
John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Acts 2:41 - Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls.​

 

[rakovsky]

I am RC from childhood. I began doubting in God's existence at around 7, but haven't wanted to give up on the idea so I continue to attend Mass, pray, etc. I did take a few years to explore other branches of Christianity but that didn't get me closer to faith. So I've been a practicing Catholic agnostic for 41 years.
It's not that uncommon I've found to find people who regularly attend church who still doubt. .most just prefer to keep it quiet.
I've just been struggling with it long enough I thought I'd start discussing it here.

I believe that God exists because I see that there are forces in the world like life and morality that go beyond simple materialism. I "know" that the soul exists, but I haven't been able to prove it using materialistic media. I think other dimensions and universes exist, but that's hard to prove too. So I accept as more likely than not that a supreme entity exists, even if the being is not trapped in a material body.