Can anyone be killed during the thousand years for not worshiping the beast?

[DavidPT]

If one is Premil, this of course is a nonsensical question. But the fact there are other positions besides Premil, such as Amil for instance, a question like this then helps to clear up once and for all which position is correct. a position such as Premil. Or a position such as Amil.

In order to even begin determining this, we first have to try and determine whether the question in the title of this thread is even possible, that one can be killed during the thousand years for not worshiping the beast, which would have to be the case if a position such as Amil is the correct position.


Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Between these two choices, does it seem more likely that one can be killed for not worshiping the beast while satan is bound, or more likely while he is loosed instead? But are these the only two choices we have though? Let's continue on, because you never know, there might even be a third choice here, in which I will attempt to show happens to be the case.

Let's go to Rev 13 for a moment.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Until these 2 beasts rise first, there can't even be anyone being killed for not worshiping the beast and his image. So the question at this point is, as to these two beasts seen in Rev 13, do they operate when satan is bound a thousand years, or do they operate during a time when satan is loose instead? Doesn't verse 2 easily answer this for us? Does it not say----and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority? Does it sound like satan would be doing that while bound in the pit a thousand years, or during a time when he is loose instead? Would it not be the latter?

It should at least be clear at this point, this 42 months in Rev 13, it occurs during a time when satan is not bound but is loose. Scripture has him loose only two times, and bound only one time. The two times he is loose are before he is bound a thousand years, and after he has been bound a thousand years. The time he is bound is meaning the thousand years of course. The question now on the table, since it should settle once and for all as to which position is correct about Rev 20 and this thousand years, Premil or Amil, is the 42 months in Rev 13 meaning prior to the beginning of the thousand years? Or following the thousand years? If the former, then Premil must be the correct position. If the latter, then a position such as Amil must be the correct position.

I already know that Rev 13 and this 42 months has to be meaning when satan is loosed before the thousand years begins, thus proving Premil, and that I can prove it via Scripture. Pretty much already have actually, though there's still something else that undeniably proves it. Those that might disagree though, can they too prove it via Scripture that the time of Rev 13 and this 42 months is meaning after the thousand years instead, thus proving a position such as Amil is the correct position?

Which would then indicate if a position such as Amil is the correct position, one can be killed during the thousand years for not worshiping the beast, though I have already shown via the OP here that it would not be during the thousand years anyone is killed for not worshiping the beast and his image, but would be during a time when satan is loose instead, and that Scripture indicates he is only loose two different times as I have already shown. One thing we should all be at least in agreement about, this 42 months in Rev 13 leads directly to the 2nd coming, which obviously places this 42 months at the end of this age.

 

[PollyJetix]

So, it seems to me that you are trying to use Scripture to contradict itself.
It says after 1000 years. And you are trying to say it doesn't mean what it says. LOL

 

[DavidPT]

So, it seems to me that you are trying to use Scripture to contradict itself.
It says after 1000 years. And you are trying to say it doesn't mean what it says. LOL

'

You apparently are not yet grasping what I have submitted in the OP thus far, but that aside. What says it is after the thousand years? And what is it that is supposed to be after the thousand years that you find amusing about what I submitted, thus indicating I was contradicting Scripture? I'm not disputing that satan's little season is after the thousand years if that is what you are thinking. What's in question here, as to the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13 since it obviously leads to the 2nd coming, does it occur before the thousand years begin, or after the thousand years have finished?

 

[DavidPT]

So, it seems to me that you are trying to use Scripture to contradict itself.
It says after 1000 years. And you are trying to say it doesn't mean what it says. LOL

Since it's on my mind, was that LOL at the end of your post really necessary? Had you just said this----So, it seems to me that you are trying to use Scripture to contradict itself.
It says after 1000 years. And you are trying to say it doesn't mean what it says.---fine, you are entitled to your opinion, so no problem there as far as I'm concerned. But when you then had to add a LOL to the end of that, I find it to be an attack on me personally, since I'm the one who thought up and typed the OP out.
But since I'm pretty new here, maybe things like this is the norm around here and acceptable behavior?

 

[PropheticTimes]

I agree that the Scripture clearly shows it to be pre-millenial.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Millions on earth have been killed for not worshiping the beast.
"not serving the beast".

After JESUS returns, everyone who worships any idol , "serves any idol", will be killed. i.e. they will be killed sometime after JESUS returns for worshiping/serving that which is the liar - NOT for worshiping and for serving the ONE TRUE GOD .

 

[DavidPT]

Millions on earth have been killed for not worshiping the beast.
"not serving the beast".

After JESUS returns, everyone who worships any idol , "serves any idol", will be killed. i.e. they will be killed sometime after JESUS returns for worshiping/serving that which is the liar - NOT for worshiping and for serving the ONE TRUE GOD .

Unfortunately until you expand on this a bit more, I'm not yet grasping what you are getting at here. I'm unable to respond to this atm until you first provide further clarity as to what you are getting at here.

 

[PollyJetix]

Since it's on my mind, was that LOL at the end of your post really necessary? Had you just said this----So, it seems to me that you are trying to use Scripture to contradict itself.
It says after 1000 years. And you are trying to say it doesn't mean what it says.---fine, you are entitled to your opinion, so no problem there as far as I'm concerned. But when you then had to add a LOL to the end of that, I find it to be an attack on me personally, since I'm the one who thought up and typed the OP out.
But since I'm pretty new here, maybe things like this is the norm around here and acceptable behavior?

Please don't take my laugh so personally.
I was laughing at an idea. Not at you as a person.
It really helps if we learn not to take ourselves--and others--too seriously.

 

[BABerean2]

It says after 1000 years. And you are trying to say it doesn't mean what it says.

It also says "dragon". Does that mean Satan is a giant flying lizard?

Is Satan bound with a chain made of steel or with the Blood of Christ?

Is Satan placed in a hole in the ground or was it the hole in the ground which held the Cross of Calvary?

Is Satan bound by an angel or by Christ?
The Greek word "angelos" is also used to describe the "messenger", John the Baptist.

Matthew 11:10

G32 = "angelos"

(KJV+)　 ForG1063 thisG3778 isG2076 he, ofG4012 whomG3739 it is written,G1125 Behold,G2400 IG1473 sendG649 myG3450 messengerG32 beforeG4253 thyG4675 face,G4383 whichG3739 shall prepareG2680 thyG4675 wayG3598 beforeG1715 thee.G4675

Does the word 1,000 always mean exactly 1,000?


Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.

Does He own all the hills or only 1,000?

The first resurrection found in John chapter 5 is the spiritual resurrection of being passed from death to life, through faith in Christ. John 5:24.

The second resurrection in John 5 is of the body and is found in John 5:28-30.
It is bracketed by verses showing that Christ is the judge.

The time of the judgement of the dead is found in Revelation 11:18.

Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　


Amil Eschatology by Anthony Hoekema

Amillennialism: Part I – Introduction by Anthony Hoekema | Grace Online Library

 

[Waterwerx]

Can anyone be killed during the thousand years for not worshiping the beast?
In order for this to be a "yes", the thousand years would have to be understood as an arbitrary amount of time instead of a literal 1,000 year unbroken time period. There's no indication of Christ's 1,000 year reign being an arbitrary amount of time because it has a start and a completion time.

 

[DavidPT]

It also says "dragon". Does that mean Satan is a giant flying lizard?

Is Satan bound with a chain made of steel or with the Blood of Christ?

Is Satan placed in a hole in the ground or was it the hole in the ground which held the Cross of Calvary?

Is Satan bound by an angel or by Christ?
The Greek word "angelos" is also used to describe the "messenger", John the Baptist.

Matthew 11:10

G32 = "angelos"

(KJV+)　 ForG1063 thisG3778 isG2076 he, ofG4012 whomG3739 it is written,G1125 Behold,G2400 IG1473 sendG649 myG3450 messengerG32 beforeG4253 thyG4675 face,G4383 whichG3739 shall prepareG2680 thyG4675 wayG3598 beforeG1715 thee.G4675

Does the word 1,000 always mean exactly 1,000?


Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills.

Does He own all the hills or only 1,000?

The first resurrection found in John chapter 5 is the spiritual resurrection of being passed from death to life, through faith in Christ. John 5:24.

The second resurrection in John 5 is of the body and is found in John 5:28-30.
It is bracketed by verses showing that Christ is the judge.

The time of the judgement of the dead is found in Revelation 11:18.

Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　


Amil Eschatology by Anthony Hoekema

Amillennialism: Part I – Introduction by Anthony Hoekema | Grace Online Library

Basically what you are saying then, a thousand years can mean any amount, but just not 1000 itself. IOW, it can mean 2000 years, 2500 years, etc, but it just can't mean 1000 years as well. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it can't mean 1000 years, because if it does, there goes Amil out the window for good, since the Amil position couldn't possibly work if a literal 1000 years are in view here.

So getting back to the OP, when do you conclude the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13 occurs? While satan is loose, or while he is bound? If the former, like I have already pointed out, satan is loose only 2 times. Before this thousand years, and after this thousand years. If you choose after this thousand years, Rev 20:4 contradicts that conclusion, based on the fact that verse shows they already got over the 42 month reign of the beast before satan's little season even begins. Thus the logical conclusion, the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the beginning of the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


As can be clearly seen here, they already got over the 42 month reign of the beast, thus they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Clearly the thousand years precedes satan's loosing following it. Clearly as well, the 42 month reign of the beast ends with the 2nd coming. Which therefore undeniably proves the thousand years follow the 2nd coming, not precede it instead. Rev 20:4 makes it clear that the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13, that no way can it occur after the thousand years, but must occur before the thousand years.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Does He own all the hills or only 1,000?

What is not written in this verse:"he owns the hills"
What is written in this verse: "HE owns the cattle on one thousand hills".
What we can know then is true: "HE owns the cattle on one thousand hills".

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it can't mean 1000 years, because if it does, there goes Amil out the window for good, since the Amil position couldn't possibly work if a literal 1000 years are in view here.

I'm not Amil or Premil, but I believe you have that one wrong. The millennial reign begins with the binding of the dragon, which was used in Revelation as a symbol of both Satan and Rome. If the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, and her child is Christ, then the rest of her offspring in verse 17 are the church. That means that the millennial reign does not begin immediately upon Christ's birth or death, because there is a time when the dragon is fighting the believers, before he is bound. The dragon is followed by two more beasts, the first of which is also seven-headed, just like the dragon. A bunch of stuff happens, and then the dragon is finally bound. Just when Rome and Rome's successors, and the whole heritage that started with Rome, finally gets subdued once and for all is up to you to decide, but the Reformed, many of whom are Amillennialists, see the Catholic Church as the successor to the Roman dragon, which means that the dragon is finally bound either at the Reformation or at the time when Napoleon decapitated the Vatican by conquering its territories and isolating it into a city-state. Rome has never been a huge national force ever since.

Again, I'm not defending that position as my own, but as one who respects those who hold that position. I feel that you dismiss it too lightly.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm not Amil or Premil, but I believe you have that one wrong. The millennial reign begins with the binding of the dragon, which was used in Revelation as a symbol of both Satan and Rome. If the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, and her child is Christ, then the rest of her offspring in verse 17 are the church. That means that the millennial reign does not begin immediately upon Christ's birth or death, because there is a time when the dragon is fighting the believers, before he is bound. The dragon is followed by two more beasts, the first of which is also seven-headed, just like the dragon. A bunch of stuff happens, and then the dragon is finally bound. Just when Rome and Rome's successors, and the whole heritage that started with Rome, finally gets subdued once and for all is up to you to decide, but the Reformed, many of whom are Amillennialists, see the Catholic Church as the successor to the Roman dragon, which means that the dragon is finally bound either at the Reformation or at the time when Napoleon decapitated the Vatican by conquering its territories and isolating it into a city-state. Rome has never been a huge national force ever since.

Again, I'm not defending that position as my own, but as one who respects those who hold that position. I feel that you dismiss it too lightly.

This particular view you submit here, can't say I'm familiar with it. If it falls under a form of Preterism, might be why. The Amils I have debated and discussed these things with in the past, they typically conclude satan is bound at the cross. Some of them even conclude he was bound at Pentecost. If you have a position such as Amil, who can't even all agree with when satan is initially bound, plus the position you just submitted here further proving this point, why is this position speculating on this, unlike Premil who doesn't need to speculate when satan is initially bound because all Premils agree it happens at the 2nd coming?

 

[DavidPT]

I'm not Amil or Premil, but I believe you have that one wrong. The millennial reign begins with the binding of the dragon, which was used in Revelation as a symbol of both Satan and Rome. If the woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, and her child is Christ, then the rest of her offspring in verse 17 are the church. That means that the millennial reign does not begin immediately upon Christ's birth or death, because there is a time when the dragon is fighting the believers, before he is bound. The dragon is followed by two more beasts, the first of which is also seven-headed, just like the dragon. A bunch of stuff happens, and then the dragon is finally bound. Just when Rome and Rome's successors, and the whole heritage that started with Rome, finally gets subdued once and for all is up to you to decide, but the Reformed, many of whom are Amillennialists, see the Catholic Church as the successor to the Roman dragon, which means that the dragon is finally bound either at the Reformation or at the time when Napoleon decapitated the Vatican by conquering its territories and isolating it into a city-state. Rome has never been a huge national force ever since.

Again, I'm not defending that position as my own, but as one who respects those who hold that position. I feel that you dismiss it too lightly.

Regardless of my other post to you, I do find what you submitted here interesting, worth looking into further IMO. So thanks for this post, you explained it very clearly. Yet, not certain what all to make of it until I've perhaps researched it further first.

 

[BABerean2]

Basically what you are saying then, a thousand years can mean any amount, but just not 1000 itself. IOW, it can mean 2000 years, 2500 years, etc, but it just can't mean 1000 years as well. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why it can't mean 1000 years, because if it does, there goes Amil out the window for good, since the Amil position couldn't possibly work if a literal 1000 years are in view here.

So getting back to the OP, when do you conclude the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13 occurs? While satan is loose, or while he is bound? If the former, like I have already pointed out, satan is loose only 2 times. Before this thousand years, and after this thousand years. If you choose after this thousand years, Rev 20:4 contradicts that conclusion, based on the fact that verse shows they already got over the 42 month reign of the beast before satan's little season even begins. Thus the logical conclusion, the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the beginning of the thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


As can be clearly seen here, they already got over the 42 month reign of the beast, thus they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Clearly the thousand years precedes satan's loosing following it. Clearly as well, the 42 month reign of the beast ends with the 2nd coming. Which therefore undeniably proves the thousand years follow the 2nd coming, not precede it instead. Rev 20:4 makes it clear that the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13, that no way can it occur after the thousand years, but must occur before the thousand years.

It is ironic that many acknowledge all of the symbols in Revelation chapter 20, but insist that the number 1,000 must be literal.

Some are pretribbers who fail to acknowledge that if the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 is literally the "first" bodily resurrection, it kills the pretrib rapture.

I have to reject a period when sin and death remain for 1,000 years after the return of Christ, simply because it causes tremendous conflict with the rest of the New Testament.

There is a direct link between the famous resurrection passage in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, which occurs on the Day of the Lord when He comes as a thief. This is also found in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-15, which are clearly Second Coming passages. If Peter was looking for a New Heavens and a New Earth, I have to look for the same thing.
Peter never mentioned a 1,000 year period when sin and death remain and neither did any of the other books of the New Testament, outside of the Book of Revelation.

I cannot ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, which occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
If the time of the judgment of the dead described by Christ in John 5:28-30 occurs at the time of the 7th trumpet, how can it occur again in Revelation 20?


If Revelation chapter 20 is not taken as the starting point, there is no way anyone could find it in the rest of the New Testament.

I will make you this one promise.
I will not divide with any person or condemn any person's viewpoint of Revelation chapter 20.

The following may shed some light on the subject, but I may not agree with all of it.

Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

 

[DavidPT]

It is ironic that many acknowledge all of the symbols in Revelation chapter 20, but insist that the number 1,000 must be literal.

Some are pretribbers who fail to acknowledge that if the "first resurrection" in Revelation chapter 20 is literally the "first" bodily resurrection, it kills the pretrib rapture.

I have to reject a period when sin and death remain for 1,000 years after the return of Christ, simply because it causes tremendous conflict with the rest of the New Testament.

There is a direct link between the famous resurrection passage in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5, which occurs on the Day of the Lord when He comes as a thief. This is also found in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-15, which are clearly Second Coming passages. If Peter was looking for a New Heavens and a New Earth, I have to look for the same thing.
Peter never mentioned a 1,000 year period when sin and death remain and neither did any of the other books of the New Testament, outside of the Book of Revelation.

I cannot ignore the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, which occurs right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
If the time of the judgment of the dead described by Christ in John 5:28-30 occurs at the time of the 7th trumpet, how can it occur again in Revelation 20?


If Revelation chapter 20 is not taken as the starting point, there is no way anyone could find it in the rest of the New Testament.

I will make you this one promise.
I will not divide with any person or condemn any person's viewpoint of Revelation chapter 20.

The following may shed some light on the subject, but I may not agree with all of it.

Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

Don't you see the problem thusfar? In order to prove you are correct, you have to first be able to prove what all I have submitted thusfar, that I am wrong on this. Mainly meaning when the 42 month reign of the beast occurs. Rev 20:4 proves it has to occur not only before satan's little season, therefore obviously can't occur during satan's little season, and that it can't occur while satan is bound a thousand years. what's left for an option? That the 42 month reign of the beast has to precede the beginning of the thousand years, therefore proving Premil and disproving Amil.

Unless you want to deny that the 42 month reign of the beast ends with the 2nd coming, how could I possibly be wrong when Rev 20:4 is clearly proving this point when it tells us when they live again and reign a thousand years, they already got over the 42 month reign of the beast? The 42 month reign can only occur during a time when satan is loose, and that it clearly can't be meaning satan's little season, because Rev 20:4 indicates the 42 month reign of the beast precedes satan's little season.

 

[BABerean2]

Don't you see the problem thusfar? In order to prove you are correct, you have to first be able to prove what all I have submitted thusfar, that I am wrong on this. Mainly meaning when the 42 month reign of the beast occurs. Rev 20:4 proves it has to occur not only before satan's little season, therefore obviously can't occur during satan's little season, and that it can't occur while satan is bound a thousand years. what's left for an option? That the 42 month reign of the beast has to precede the beginning of the thousand years, therefore proving Premil and disproving Amil.

Unless you want to deny that the 42 month reign of the beast ends with the 2nd coming, how could I possibly be wrong when Rev 20:4 is clearly proving this point when it tells us when they live again and reign a thousand years, they already got over the 42 month reign of the beast? The 42 month reign can only occur during a time when satan is loose, and that it clearly can't be meaning satan's little season, because Rev 20:4 indicates the 42 month reign of the beast precedes satan's little season.

You have failed to address the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18 and the fact that the beast ascends out of the pit in Revelation 11:7.
Where was the beast before he came up out of the pit?

You also have failed to address the connection between the Day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, and 2 Peter 3:10.

There is nothing about the 42 months in Revelation 20.
You are imposing it upon the text.

Most of these problems go away if it is understood that the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20 is the first resurrection found in John 5:24, which is a spiritual resurrection.
John saw "souls" in heaven with Christ.
Paul was beheaded and has been there with Christ since the first century.

Then the second resurrection found at the end of Revelation 20 is the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead found in John 5:28-30, which is the same as the one that occurs in Revelation 11:18.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
This fact is proven by the birth and death of the man-child who rules with a rod of iron at the beginning of chapter 12. Read Psalm 2 to confirm this fact.

The Second Coming is found...

At the end of chapter 6, with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Some of the same characters are found in Revelation 19.

At the 7th trump, wrath of God, and time of the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 11.

At the harvest of chapter 14.

When He comes as a thief at Revelation 16:15-16, at Armageddon.

In chapter 19.

And in chapter 20.

To deny this lack of chronology produces the confusion that we now face.

.

 

[DavidPT]

There is nothing about the 42 months in Revelation 20.
You are imposing it upon the text.

Let me take on this for now and let's see whether you are correct to conclude I'm imposing it on the text.



Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is what verse 4 indicates. It tells us John saw the souls of them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

The fact they then lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, do not they reign this thousand years before satan is even loosed? And does not the text tell us they already had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, before satan is loosed for a little season?

What should we be asking ourselves at this point? What beast? What image? What mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands?


Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Until these things happen first, such as---that they should make an image to the beast---to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads----how could John have possibly seen the souls of them which had not worshiped this beast, thus they were killed for not worshiping this beast, and that neither had they received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands----before a beast first rises out of the sea, another out of the earth, followed by making an image to the beast, etc? And these that had not worshiped the beast, what does the text tell us happens next? and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Does or does not the thousand years precede satan's little season? Does or does not the 42 month reign of the beast end with the 2nd coming?

You do agree there is only one 42 month reign of the beast, correct? And do you also agree that the 42 month reign of the beast can only occur when satan is not bound, thus no one can be killed for not worshiping the beast during the thousand years, but can only be killed for not worshiping the beast during a time satan is loose? If you agree with all of that, plus considering what all I just said and submitted in this post, therefore proving my case, how then could you still be concluding I'm imposing this 42 month reign on the text in Rev 20?

This 42 month reign is connected to Rev 20 in this way only, it is because they first had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, they then because of that, lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. And since these that never worshiped this beast were obviously killed before satan is loosed after the thousand years, this tells us as plain as day that the 42 month reign of the beast, which we know ends with the 2nd coming, that the only way this could be true according to Rev 20:4, the 2nd coming has to precede this thousand years.

 

[BABerean2]

You do agree there is only one 42 month reign of the beast, correct?

Yes. However, you are completely ignoring this same period of time found in Revelation chapter 11.

Rev 11:1　 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, "Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there.　
Rev 11:2　 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.　
Rev 11:3　 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."　
Rev 11:4　 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.　
(Rev 1:20　 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.)　
(Rom 11:17　 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,)　

Based on the words of Christ and the words of Paul the two witnesses are a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites and Gentiles grafted together into one tree.
If you reject this, then you have to say the two witnesses are men made of wood and metal.

Rev 11:5　 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.　
Rev 11:6　 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.　
Rev 11:7　 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.　
Rev 11:8　 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.　
Rev 11:9　 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.　
Rev 11:10　 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.　
Rev 11:11　 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.　
Rev 11:12　 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.　
(If this is not an event similar to what is described at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, then what is it?)

Rev 11:13　 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.　
Rev 11:14　 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.　

The Seventh Trumpet

Rev 11:15　 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"　

The verse above does not say He will reign for 1,000 years.
It says He will reign "forever and ever" at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.
You have got to deal with Revelation 20 in the context of this verse. So far, you have ignored it.

Rev 11:16　 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,　
Rev 11:17　 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.　
Rev 11:18　 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."　

In John 5:28-30 we find that Christ is the judge at the bodily resurrection of "all" the dead.
The verse above says that this happens right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible. You have to view Revelation 20 in the context of this verse. So far, you have ignored it.

Rev 11:19　 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.

At the beginning of Revelation chapter 12 we have a review of Church history including the fall of Satan and the birth and death of the man-child, who will rule with a rod of iron. Psalm 2 reveals that this is Christ.

You cannot come up with any correct timeline for Revelation 20, without understanding that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
It is a series of overlapping visions given to the Apostle John.

The time of the judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 11:18 and also at the end of Revelation 20.
How do you reconcile this fact, without ignoring chapter 11?

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