Can a women be a 'pastor'?

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abacabb3

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Acording to the bible and all that, Do you think a women could be a 'pastor'?
Unless you presume that every verse that says no is the result of a corrupted manuscript, then no. However, if all the manuscripts we have are that bad, it kind of puts all of Scripture into question.

So, the long short of it is no, women cannot teach men or have authority over men, but they can teach women and children.
 
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iAlive

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No, I do not believe that women should teach. It says so in I Timothy 2:12. They just cannot teach or have authority over man. However, they (the aged woman) can teach other younger woman and children. (Titus 2:3-4)

One of the verses shared had that whole 'one in Christ Jesus', Galations 3:28. But look at what the verses before and after say.

27. "For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
28. "For as many of you as have been baptized unto Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew no Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise?"

I do agree some woman have the gifts of teaching, and I'm glad for it, because I think that is GREAT! :thumbsup: because that means they can be a leader of women and children. (Woah! What did I say?! that sounds sexist.) But it is NOT demeaning. It is recognizing the different roles and purposes God has set in the churches. And to use this verse to justify women teaching men is kind of questionable, because the verse is talking about the promise of God through Abraham, which is Christ Jesus. Early on the same chapter of Galations where this verse is located in, it talks about faith and how the just are justified by it, not about leadership in the church. Unless that is, I got the whole chapter wrong, and if anyone feels like enlightening me, they may.

This is a little off topic, but it's something that I felt like sharing. One thing that I've noticed while reading this thread is that there has been several people saying "the Holy Spirit showed me that it's okay" or something related to it. So to me, that basically means that I absolutely cannot go against it because that would mean I'm going against the Holy Spirit. Even though I lean a lot to Pentecostalism, and I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, this appalls me. It makes me shake my head in "ohhh boy.."

Will the Spirit be set against the Spirit? The WORD OF GOD is the written, inspired work of GOD. (II Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" )

If you advocate something that the Bible is against, how can you say that? If you're not reading your Bibles and living by it, then I'm flatly going to say that your 'spiritual' lives sound kind of poor, and you are living by your own conscience and by your own heart. Now, maybe you do read your Bibles and you do study it, but I think there should be a stronger foundation for opinion other than "I feel it in my spirit" or "the Holy Spirit showed it to me" (some have shared verses that support their opinion. I mean, I don't really know any of you personally or what you believe in exactly.) If you're not reading your Bibles (I'm not accusing you all of not reading your Bibles, but if one among you is not reading.), you'll accept what anyone in the pulpit preaches, and you will select what you want to hear.. (not accusing everyone of this, but saying what could happen and often happens.)
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If you feel you must reply to this in defense, do so through a private message. This thread has had enough bickering and arguments and I don't feel like filling it up with more. If you share me a verse or passage or teaching from the Bible that visibly supports woman in leadership, I will gladly look it over and re-examine my views on the matter. Just do it through a PM if you can. :)
 
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JojotheBeloved

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I would really like to hear the nonargumentative points of view on this, it is something that I have struggled with for a very long time because I want very much to go into ministry and God created me as a natural born leader, but I am unsure of what my place in ministry is.

I have so many aspirations for ministries that I want to start and ideas for reaching the unreached, yet where is my place in all of this?

I would really like to hear the nonargumentative points of view on this, it is something that I have struggled with for a very long time because I want very much to go into ministry and God created me as a natural born leader, but I am unsure of what my place in ministry is.

I have so many aspirations for ministries that I want to start and ideas for reaching the unreached, yet where is my place in all of this?

I would like to attempt to share a few nonargumentative (or rather, non-combative) points on this subject, which I have discovered in my own studies and struggles. Before I do though, I'd like to encourage you in your calling to ministry. Your place in ministry is where God has put a passion in your heart for others. Don't let anyone tell you you can't, because with God all things are possible and if God has called you He will make a way for you no matter what. I truly believe this, because God has referred me again and again to His promises in the Bible where He empowers everyone who desires to serve Him. I am a female minister. I have encountered opposition and have been blessed with support and encouragement as well. I have heard all the arguments, and I have studied in depth for myself. You are right to seek non-combative explanations and understandings, because a lot of this conflict of opinion is emotionally fueled and if you allow it to, it can cause bitterness. So when you meet opposition on this subject, take a minute to pray and let God put you in a gracious and loving frame of mind. It's easy to just fight back in anger, but it takes courage to rise to love even those who would set themselves against the work God has trusted you with. Show them by who you are and what you and God accomplish together what is right. Even the most reasonable arguments will not change the minds of those who refuse to see God's call in your life. If all else fails, simply ignore them and do what you know is right, because it is right. God will take care of you and it's really His ministry anyway, not yours, so refer those who oppose your call to the God who called you. Tell them to take it up with Him, because you are too busy doing what God told you to do. With that, I will now outline some points that I have found from the Bible to help me understand my calling and place as a woman who ministers.

Most people who oppose female ministers do so with the basic philosophy of "if the Bible says it, I do it." They don't allow for doubt or question in their theology. They typically will say there is no need for interpretation because the texts they cite are "so clear." Most ignore context completely and cite only verses that support their view. Some will concede that context matters but for whatever reason do not include the context of the entire Bible in their definition. Maybe they simply forget or never knew about some examples of women leaders explicitly mentioned and even more implied throughout Scripture. I don't know. Anyway, knowing this can help you understand their view and know how to speak to them on the subject. Some will ignore what you have to say no matter what. So don't worry about them. Those who truly want to understand, will be more able to hear you when you approach the subject in a respectful manner, listening to them first and then responding directly from Scripture. The most commonly used texts cited to oppose female ministers are 1 Timothy 2:11-14, 1 Timothy 3:1-7, 12, and 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. To begin sharing my understanding of this subject from Scripture I will directly address these passages.

1 Timothy 2:11-14 says, [BIBLE]"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner."[/BIBLE]
Some say that of course this text is as plain as day and means a woman cannot be a pastor. This reasoning completely ignores the allowance made for women to teach male children in Sunday School, Day Care, at home, or at a Christian primary or secondary school. What about female professors teaching men at the college, post-grad, or doctorate levels in Christian Universities? But even more to focus on the text within its context, I read on to the next verse. 1 Timothy 2:15 says, [BIBLE]"But women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety."[/BIBLE] If you take a "the Bible says, I do" approach to this verse it would completely undermine the work of Christ in salvation, because women would be excluded from salvation by Grace and instead would need to work for it. Beyond that, it would mean that every woman who is not a mother would not be saved. This would include all women who have yet to bear a child because they are too young, all women who have been unable to bear a child due to complications with getting pregnant, all single women who may never have children, and even women who have children but do not continuously behave in a faithful, loving, holy and proprietous manner (propriety is completely subjective btw, as it is dependent upon cultural views). Most will not agree to this application of verse 15 but are okay with applying the same philosophy to verses 11-14. But lets expand the context even further to include the next chapter, as it also speaks to church leadership and is also cited against female ministers.
1 Timothy 3 speaks to the requirements of church leaders. It starts by describing desirable characteristics to be recognized in a good leader - deacon (deacon is Greek for servant and is in every case in Paul's letters used in reference to ministers within the faith community). Some say that because the pronouns used are masculine (he/his/him) it means that women cannot be deacons or pastors or church leaders. But if you continue to read the chapter it starts with [BIBLE]"Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task"[/BIBLE] (1 Tim. 3:1), it continues in verse 8 saying [BIBLE]"In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect..."[/BIBLE] describes more character traits a deacon should have, then says in verse 10 [BIBLE]"They must first be tested, and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons."[/BIBLE] Verse 11 says, [BIBLE]"In the same way, women are to be worthy of respect..."[/BIBLE]. In the same way as the male leaders women leaders are to be worthy of respect and held to the same requirements of character traits and leadership skills. Both are deacons/ministers. Both are to be held to the same standards of leadership and both are to be treated with respect.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 says, [BIBLE]"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."[/BIBLE] People who oppose female ministers use this especially to say that since women shouldn't speak in church, they can't be pastors, because a primary role of a pastor is to preach publicly. Again, context matters in understanding Paul's intent in this verse. If you read the entire chapter, the theme is spiritual gifts - skills God's Spirit gives each member of the congregation to contribute to spreading the good news about Jesus. Paul is especially fond of the gift of prophesy - which includes not only the gift of relating future events, but also of public speaking about a message God gives the prophet. Even though some are uncomfortable with this understanding of prophesy, all the prophets of the Bible were leaders and public speakers of a message laid on their hearts by God - in the same way today's pastors are called to do. Whenever Paul speaks of prophesy, he seems to be referring to public speaking about the Gospel message. Throughout this chapter, Paul addresses the brothers and sisters of the congregation - meaning the entire congregation inclusively. A problem arises for understanding when we come to verses 34 and 35, because they seem to interrupt the flow of the spiritual gifts theme. However, upon closer inspection this is not an interruption apart from the theme, but is included in the overall message. Women are supposedly silenced in verses 34 and 35, but in verse 39 Paul includes women in the gift of prophesy - public speaking in and out of church setting to spread the Gospel - [BIBLE]"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy..."[/BIBLE]. Do these verses seem to contradict one another? I used to think so, but as part of my training in pastoral studies I learned a basic knowledge of the biblical Greek language the texts were originally written in. This helped me tremendously, because English has punctuation to denote meaning, while Greek did not. Greek lettering was without things like commas, exclamation points, and question marks. Meaning was read from context of the situation being addressed. But there is one marker in Greek that is shown in the Greek texts that suggests verses 34 and 35 may be a quotation. Since Paul was writing a letter, he may have quoted a concern or opinion he had been presented with which he was directly meaning to speak to. I have done the same in this post by first explaining what those who oppose female ministers say and then sharing what I say in contrast. Paul may have been quoting a group of men who were quoting Jewish custom or oral law and then rebutting their opinion. The Greek word that clued me (and more qualified scholars before me) into this can be translated emphatically (with exclamation points and strong meaning) and means in English, "WHAT?!?" Knowing this information the entire passage could be translated as the following:
[BIBLE]"26 What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, or a revelation, a tongue or interpretation (notice that all people in the congregation have a gift to share publicly). Everything must be done so that the church may be built up...34 Women should be remain silent in the churches... 35... it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church. 36 WHAT?!? Did the word of God originate with you?!? Are you the only people it has reached?!? If ANYONE thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you IS the Lord's command. But if anyone ignores this, they will themselves be ignored. Therefore, my brothers AND SISTERS, be eager to prophesy."[/BIBLE] I believe that Paul was quoting a group within the Corinthian congregation who were trying to keep women "in their place" as their custom dictated, and Paul was emphatically telling them they were wrong to do so. The reasoning I see Paul giving in the text is that no human being has the authority to control what God does, so if God wants to call a woman to public ministry, He will call a woman to public ministry. Let her minister as God has called her. And anyone - the group wanting to keep women submissive and silent - who ignores her calling or contribution to building up the church (defined in today's terms as evangelism) will themselves be ignore by her as she does what God has called her to do. Because in Paul's view, everyone should be eager to speak of Jesus publicly (prophesy).

In addition to the immediate context of the passages in question, which I have explained as I understand them, there are multiple other examples in the general context of the entire Bible which lend toward support of female leadership within the faith community. Paul - the one whose letters are used to say women can't be pastors - worked directly with multiple female ministers and makes special mention of them in his letters so as to give them credibility in the churches. Jesus treated women as equal disciples with the men who followed Him, and women were first trusted with the news of His resurrection (which was an incredible honor, because women were not typically allowed to testify of anything). In the Old Testament also, God raised up great female leaders to guide, protect, and encourage His people. For being an ancient middle eastern collection of documents, the Bible is overwhelmingly supportive of women in various roles. Women are made special mention of in the Bible stories, because their stories were counter-cultural, and on-par with their male contemporaries. It didn't make much cultural sense, because women were valued as property of men, but God empowered them and gave them the authority to speak on His behalf and to do great things too.

I have run out of space in this post, so I will include in a second post some examples of women in the Bible who were called by God to leadership roles within their faith community.
 
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JojotheBeloved

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Below are some examples of women in the Bible who were called by God to leadership roles within the community of His people.

Miriam - co-leader of the Israelite people with her brothers Moses and Aaron (Exodus 15, Numbers 12).
Deborah - prophet, judge, and leader of Israelite people. She even lead the soldiers in battle (Judges 4-5).
Esther - recognized as savior of her community, this woman could be called a type of Christ, in that her story parallels the story of Christ's salvation for all mankind. She lead her people in prayer and fasting, and she was given the calling to advise her husband the King to save her people. She was also a civil ruler, alongside the King.
Anna - prophet who prayed continuously at the temple in Jerusalem. She also preached publicly about Jesus at the temple to anyone who would listen (Luke 2:36-38).
Mary, Jesus' mother - Besides being a woman respected for her role in raising, teaching, and ministering to God's Son, Mary was also regarded as part of the ministry team of the early church. She was among the other apostles as they joined together in prayer after His death. She was with them as they chose the apostle to replace Judas. And although it is not said explicitly, the progression of the text may suggest she was with them at Pentecost.
Mary of Bethany - was counted among the disciples who sat at Jesus' feet. To sit at the feet of a rabbi was a male role, and Martha would have been right to chastise Mary for her boldness and neglect of her homemaker role, but Jesus defends Mary's right to be a disciple in equal standing (or rather sitting) with the men (Luke 10:39-42).
Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women - all of these women were disciples of Jesus as well and these were the women who were the first people to testify of Jesus' resurrection. These women were the first to preach the Gospel (Luke 24:1-12).
Paul's female co-workers in Christ (AKA deacons/ministers/evangelists/pastors):
Chloe - 1 Corinthians is a letter Paul wrote to a church in Corinth that he had planted and was mentoring. So when the letter opens with a message about the church from Chloe's people, it is reasonable to think that Chloe was the leader of the church, especially as the church probably met in her household. Chloe is the pastor of the church in Corinth, or at least one of the respected leaders on the ministry team (1 Cor. 1).
Priscilla - along with her husband Aquila, she was a minister who was influential in Paul's own learning in what he calls, the way of God. Priscilla is mentioned multiple times as a co-worker with Paul in his evangelistic work, and in 5 of 7 direct references to her family and her work she is mentioned first (not common in ancient literature or biblical literature, it could be taken as special reference to her credibility as a minister). Also, a church met in her home (Acts 18, Romans 16, 1 Corinthians 16, and 2 Timothy 4).
Tabitha/Dorcas - a disciple who ministered to the poor. One could say, she was one of the first to direct a homeless ministry or community services ministry in the early Christian church (Acts 9).
Lydia - minister of a church that met in her home after her hearing the gospel message from Paul. Paul visited and addressed the brothers and sisters meeting in her home after his release from prison with Silas (Acts 16:40).
Romans 16 lists the most explicit mentions of female co-pastors with Paul so I'll list them all here together:
Phoebe - given a letter of recommendation as a pastor/deacon/minister by Paul (verses 1-2).
Mary - "who worked very hard for you" (in context Paul is consistently talking about missionary or pastoral work) (verse 6).
Junia - an outstanding apostle before Paul became one and was imprisoned with Paul for the charge of public preaching about Jesus. Yes, Junia is a feminine name (verse 7).
Tryphena and Tryphosa - women who work hard in the Lord (verse 12).
Persis - another woman who works hard in the Lord (verse 12).
Julia and the sister of Nereus - these women are part of the a pastoral team and are mentioned together with the men on the team (verse 15).
Besides these, Paul also addresses the brothers and sisters in all the churches and all the homes and all the places he mentions in this chapter.

So to conclude, over the expanse of the entire biblical context women are honored and respected as leaders of God's people over and over again. Their titles may change with time and culture but their functions remain distinctly pastoral. They pray, they lead public worship, they preach, they witness and evangelize, they lead in decision-making for the faith community, they are given prophetic voice and vision, they host church plants, they direct community ministries, they teach, they encourage, they disciple and are discipled, and they sit at the feet of Jesus and are included in His salvation work. The only function I have not yet found an example of a woman doing in scripture that today's pastors perform is baptism. However, as that is often included in evangelistic work, I would not take the lack of explicit mention of this function to mean women have no authority to baptize, because they are given authority to evangelize and the one may be included in the other. There are few prohibitions on women's involvement in leadership roles, and even when prohibition is stated it is not as clearly understood as some would have you believe. There is considerable reason for doubt that those prohibitions are to be taken at face-value without interpretation considering the context and the overwhelming evidence of Paul's views of female ministers being positive - as he worked with and supported many of them.

So, be who God created you and called you to be. Boldly work for Him in whatever capacity He has prepared you for and let His Spirit guide you and encourage you, as you follow Him. And take a hint from Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:37 and ignore the hostile and negative opposition of those who ignore your calling as a pastor. God bless.
 
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CGL1023

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Acording to the bible and all that, Do you think a women could be a 'pastor'?

I have a teacher who is a woman, who is also a head pastor. I never learned anything much til I started learning from her. I am disappointed with the teaching I've have had from any one else, of whom 98% were men.

This is a special situation but it is an example of a woman, head pastor. She will have no difficulty defending her position or actions, according to to the scripture. I would also suppose she has the Lord's blessing as I have never seen anyone closer to the Lord.

I honestly believe that the prohibition of women preaching doesn't make sense for the example I experience. I will suppose that the scripture understood to prohibit women preachers is itself, misunderstood. That would mean that superb teaching could be available but embodied in a woman. People would be denied that teaching.

I will not pursue this topic any farther as resolving this is like resolving OSAS.
 
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tonnerkiller

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Support that with scripture, please.
Gal 3:28 can be a hint. Also, when you look at 1.Tim 2:12-14, take note that Paul writes that he (not God) would not allow a woman to teach (which by the way would also apply to Joyce Meyer), so this is Paul's reasoning we have here. Paul was certainly a clever guy, but he is not the Lord. He mad emistakes, his reasoning is not always beyond doubt.

And speaking of women preaching: What about Deborah? What about Miriam? What about Huldah?

God bless
De Benny
 
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Blades

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Unless you presume that every verse that says no is the result of a corrupted manuscript, then no. However, if all the manuscripts we have are that bad, it kind of puts all of Scripture into question.

So, the long short of it is no, women cannot teach men or have authority over men, but they can teach women and children.

I reckon Joyce Meyers is a Good Example that Women can teach, the first time I ever saw or heard what came out of her mouth hit me right between the eyes and in the Heart, never have I ever heard anybody Man or Woman speak with such Power and Authority in the name of God and Jesus.
 
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