Can a Muslim or a Jew get saved?

[Selene03]

no, please stop misrepresenting what I am saying. I said when God appeared to the prophets, it was the pre-Incarnate Son. yes, Christ is the I Am. I have never said the Father is not the I Am, I only made a reference to John's Gospel.

and lastly, YHWH is the true God. the Jews don't worship Him.

please don't put words in my mouth.

How would you know who they worship when you didn’t develop any dialogue with them?

 

[TheLostCoin]

How would you know who they worship when you didn’t develop any dialogue with them?

Simple, God Himself said so.

 

[TheLostCoin]

And you know, while dialogue can certainly be helpful for better mutual understanding, and - with God’s help, hopefully - legitimate reconciliation (not just reconciliation, legitimate reconciliation) - it doesn’t always lead to good results.

Eve dialogued with the Serpent.

 

[Selene03]

Simple, God Himself said so.

God never said the Jews do not worship YHWH. This is what the Bible says SPECIFICALLY to and for the Jews.

Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. Concerning the gospels they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[TheLostCoin]

God never said the Jews do not worship YHWH. This is what the Bible says SPECIFICALLY to and for the Jews.

Romans 11:26-29 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Delivered will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. Concerning the gospels they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the father's. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

Since Christ came, Israel is the Church, in which both Gentile and Jews are members thereof.

Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church recognizes this.
Catechism 757, 781-782, 877.

And the Godman Jesus Christ said multiple times that those who reject Him reject the Father, and told the Pharisees explicitly that if they had God as your Father, they would’ve accepted Him, but their father is the devil, the father of lies.

See my Bible verses.

 

[Selene03]

Since Christ came, Israel is the Church, in which both Gentile and Jews are members thereof.

Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church recognizes this.
Catechism 757, 781-782, 877.

The Catholic Church says that we are the NEW ISRAEL (CCC 877). Do you know what the Catechism says about the Jews? The Catechism stated: The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

The Catechism is aligned with Romans 11:26-29 and even quoted Romans in the footnotes.

 

[TheLostCoin]

The Catholic Church says that we are the NEW ISRAEL (CCC 877). Do you know what the Catechism says about the Jews? The Catechism stated: The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

The Catechism is aligned with Romans 11:26-29 and even quoted Romans in the footnotes.

Why again would there need to be a New Israel if the Old Israel was perfect and salvific?

The dual covenant theology is clearly heretical because, again, Jesus Christ said that those who reject Him reject God.

And the Catechism here - which I don’t see as authoritative anyways as I’m not Catholic - in light of the other sections I’ve quoted, can be interpreted as a fulfilment, where the 2nd Temple Jews were “detached” from the Covenant and the Church members were “attached” to the covenant.

And if you want to have the least amount of intellectual honesty, if you read any document on Roman covenant theology 1958 backwards, it’s clear that any notion of dual covenant theology being acceptable was flat out rejected by your own Church.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Why do you need to fix Christ, when it should be Christ fixing you?

 

[Selene03]

Yeah, but what you seem to be missing out is the fact that this above quote, nor does your quote of Romans, support a dual covenant theology - and even if it (the Catechism) did, it is a theology that is clearly heretical because, again, Jesus Christ said that those who reject Him reject God.

God already made a promise to the Jews through the Old Covenant and God never goes back on His promise. The calling and gifts He gave to the Jews is irrevocable because God does not break His promises.

 

[TheLostCoin]

God already made a promise to the Jews through the Old Covenant and God never goes back on His promise. The calling and gifts He gave to the Jews is irrevocable because God does not break His promises.

Yeah, but again, the Church are the New Israelites and the children of Abraham, and the Mosaic Works of the Law have been abolished, as Saint Paul repeatedly brings up.

It doesn’t matter whether you accept that or not, because Christ is the one who is judging the world - not you. And He said that those who reject the Son reject the Father.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Also, if you actually read Saint Cyril of Alexandria’s commentary on these verses, he says that this verses refers to the convsersion of the Jews.

“Although it was rejected, Israel will also be saved eventually, a hope which Paul confirms by quoting this text of Scripture. For indeed, Israel will be saved in its own time and will be called at the end, after the calling of the Gentiles.”

 

[Selene03]

Yeah, but again, the Church are the New Israelites and the children of Abraham, and the Mosaic Works of the Law have been abolished, as Saint Paul repeatedly brings up.

It doesn’t matter whether you accept that or not, because Christ is the one who is judging the world - not you. And He said that those who reject the Son reject the Father.

Christ never abolished the Law. He fulfilled the Law. Again, you are ignoring Romans 11:26-29, which was referring to the Jews. Romans 11:26-29 was not referring to the Christians, but to the Jews.

I said in the beginning that one should be very careful in judging the Jewish people.

 

[TheLostCoin]

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. - Romans 11:27

God’s covenant will be fulfilled not when they are circumcised, nor when they do the other deeds of the law, but when they obtain forgiveness of sins. If this has been promised but has not yet happened in their case, nor have they enjoyed the forgiveness of sins in baptism, nevertheless it will certainly come to pass.
- John Chrysostom

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. - Romans 11:28

When the Gentiles believed, the Jews became even more obnoxious. But even now God has not stopped calling the Gentiles. He is waiting for all of them who are to believe to come in, and then the rest of the Jews will come as well.
- John Chrysostom


And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: - Romans 11:26

Not all the Jews were blind; some of them recognized Christ. But the fullness of the Gentiles comes in among those who have been called according to the plan, and there arises a truer Israel of God … the elect from both the Jews and the Gentiles.
- Augustine of Hippo

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: - Romans 11:26

What does it mean to say that “all Israel will be saved?” Just as we say that the whole world and all the nations are being saved because everywhere and among all nations there are those who are coming to faith, so also “all Israel will be saved” does not mean that every one of them will be but that either those who were understood by Elijah or those who are scattered all over the world will one day come to faith.
- Diodorus of Tarsus

 

[TheLostCoin]

Also, how do you like the fact that the Council of Florence dogmatically decreed that the works of the Law were abolished?

“It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circumcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation. Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people, but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently, but so ,that, when danger of death is imminent, they be baptized in the form of the Church, early without delay, even by a layman or woman, if a priest should be lacking, just as is contained more fully in the decree of the Armenians.”

 

[ArmyMatt]

How would you know who they worship when you didn’t develop any dialogue with them?

well, because we Orthodox Christians have had dialogues with them. a good buddy from college is now a Rabbi.

and mostly because the NT says they don't worship the true God.

 

[Selene03]

well, because we Orthodox Christians have had dialogues with them. a good buddy from college is now a Rabbi.

and mostly because the NT says they don't worship the true God.

There is nothing in the New Testament saying that the Jews don't worship the one true God. I guess our dialogues proved more successful. After 2017, almost 1000 Jews converted to Catholism.

This I know....the Jews hold the Old Testament books, which they read in their synagogues. The God of the Old Testament is the God the Jews had always worshiped since the time of Abraham. What I find sad are Christians who claimed to believe in the Holy Trinity, but cannot recognize the God of the Old Testament.....or perhaps they think the God of the New Testament is the true God and the God of the Old Testament is a false god.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There is nothing in the New Testament saying that the Jews don't worship the one true God. I guess our dialogues proved more successful. After 2017, almost 1000 Jews converted to Catholism.

This I know....the Jews hold the Old Testament books, which they read in their synagogues. The God of the Old Testament is the God the Jews had always worshiped since the time of Abraham. What I find sad are Christians who claimed to believe in the Holy Trinity, but cannot recognize the God of the Old Testament.....or perhaps they think the God of the New Testament is the true God and the God of the Old Testament is a false god.

as to first point, again, yes there is. St John does. Christ does. as for your dialogues being successful, so what?

your second paragraph is weird. we recognize the God of the OT to be the Trinity. since the Jews do not, they don't believe in the God of the OT. they used to, but by rejecting Christ they have rejected their own God.

 

[Selene03]

as to first point, again, yes there is. St John does. Christ does. as for your dialogues being successful, so what?

your second paragraph is weird. we recognize the God of the OT to be the Trinity. since the Jews do not, they don't believe in the God of the OT. they used to, but by rejecting Christ they have rejected their own God.

They didn't reject the God of the Old Testament. They simply don't know His nature. And most importantly, God didn t reject them.

 

[Selene03]

Also, how do you like the fact that the Council of Florence dogmatically decreed that the works of the Law were abolished?

“It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors. Therefore, it commands all who glory in the name of Christian, at whatever time, before or after baptism, to cease entirely from circumcision, since, whether or not one places hope in it, it cannot be observed at all without the loss of eternal salvation. Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people, but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently, but so ,that, when danger of death is imminent, they be baptized in the form of the Church, early without delay, even by a layman or woman, if a priest should be lacking, just as is contained more fully in the decree of the Armenians.”

The Council of Florence have nothing to do with the Jews. The decrees made in Florence pertains to Catholics. It doesn't even pertain to you because you're not Catholic.

 

[ArmyMatt]

They didn't the reject the God of the Old Testament. They simply don't know His nature. And most importantly, God didn t reject them.

yeah, they did. you reject the Trinity, then you reject the God of the OT because the God of the OT is the Trinity.

and yes, God did reject them. Moses said it would happen.