Can a Muslim or a Jew get saved?

Selene03

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except, again, Christ says otherwise. in John's Gospel, Christ identifies as the I Am of the OT. the Father is not what the Jews recognize, since it is impossible to know the Father apart from the Son and the Spirit.

God revealed Himself to us through His Son, but the Jews knew Him first because God revealed Himself to the Jews first. God revealed Himself to the Jews through their history and their prophets, NOT through His Son. That's the difference. The Father is also I AM. Yahweh is the Hebrew name of God the Father, and Yeshua is the Hebrew name for Jesus. It means "Yahweh is Salvation." Both are I Am because there is only one God. Both Father and Son are one God. The Jews know Him as Yahweh (the Father) while Christians know Him as Yeshua (The Son). God revealed Himself to the Jews first through their prophets and their history. Then He revealed Himself through His Son, Yeshua. Christians know Him through His Son while the Jews knew Him in a different way.....a way, which God revealed Himself through their history. Since the Jews don't know the Son, they can find out about Him through the Christians, which is why we dialogue with them.
 
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Barney2.0

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It's not our place to judge who receives eternal life or who doesn't. The Jews reject Christ as God, but they worship the God of Abraham as the one true God. And if you say they don't, there is a problem with that because they read and hold the Old Testament books. The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament.
It’s not me judging, Jesus said I’m the Only way to the Father. He who rejects the Son rejects the Father aswell. As Jeremiah 8:8 practically says they falsify the purpose of the Old Testament by holding to false doctrines and rejecting Jesus Christ.
 
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football5680

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Maybe, but I would say it is unlikely.

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

This passage might open the door for the possibility of them being saved but as time passes, this possibility continues to be reduced due to the fact that Christianity is widely known and accessible throughout the world and to a large portion of the human population. For Jews to be saved, they would basically have to be oblivious to the existence of Christ. If they know about Christ and do not embrace him, then this could be seen as a rejection of Christ and obviously there can be no salvation without him. For Muslims to be saved, they would basically have to be ignorant of the teachings of Islam in regards to Jesus. The Islamic view of Jesus is unacceptable but if a Muslim is not aware of these views then they are not necessarily rejecting the true Jesus in favor of the false Islamic version.

In the end, God will judge us and we shouldn't presume to know what he will do, we should just put our trust and faith in him.
 
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Selene03

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It’s not me judging, Jesus said I’m the Only way to the Father. He who rejects the Son rejects the Father aswell. As Jeremiah 8:8 practically says they falsify the purpose of the Old Testament by holding to false doctrines and rejecting Jesus Christ.

Jeremiah 8:8 doesn't say that. God revealed His name to the Jews. It's YHWH. This is the God they have always worshipped. So, are they worshiping a false God? In my opinion, the Jews worship the same God of Abraham as Christians. The problem is the Jews are ignorant of God's nature.

As an example, I know my mother more than my half brother. I lived my mother and grew up with her. She raised me; therefore, I know her character and attitude. My half brother never lived with her, but heard a lot of things about my mother. He doesn't know her character and attitude as well as I do; therefore, my half brother is ignorant of my mother's true character and attitude. This analogy is similar to the Jews and Christians. The Christians know God's nature better than the Jews.
 
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ArmyMatt

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God revealed Himself to us through His Son, but the Jews knew Him first because God revealed Himself to the Jews first. God revealed Himself to the Jews through their history and their prophets, NOT through His Son. That's the difference. The Father is also I AM. Yahweh is the Hebrew name of God the Father, and Yeshua is the Hebrew name for Jesus. It means "Yahweh is Salvation." Both are I Am because there is only one God. Both Father and Son are one God. The Jews know Him as Yahweh (the Father) while Christians know Him as Yeshua (The Son). God revealed Himself to the Jews first through their prophets and their history. Then He revealed Himself through His Son, Yeshua. Christians know Him through His Son while the Jews knew Him in a different way.....a way, which God revealed Himself through their history. Since the Jews don't know the Son, they can find out about Him through the Christians, which is why we dialogue with them.

again, you are wrong. and you are bordering on Sabellianism when you say that Jews know God as Yahweh, and Christians know Him as Jesus.

"Before Abraham was, I Am." -Jesus of Nazareth
 
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Selene03

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again, you are wrong. and you are bordering on Sabellianism when you say that Jews know God as Yahweh, and Christians know Him as Jesus.

"Before Abraham was, I Am." -Jesus of Nazareth

How am I bordering on Sabellianism when I said that the God of Abraham is the Holy Trinity....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? The nature of God is that He is Trinitarian....three Persons in one God.
 
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ArmyMatt

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How am I bordering on Sabellianism when I said that the God of Abraham is the Holy Trinity....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? The nature of God is that He is Trinitarian....three Persons in one God.

that wasn't what you said. you said the Jews know God as Yahweh and Christians know Him as Jesus.

that is not the Christian understanding.
 
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Selene03

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that wasn't what you said. you said the Jews know God as Yahweh and Christians know Him as Jesus.

that is not the Christian understanding.

Read what I post as a whole instead of taking one sentence out of context. This is what I said in Post number 81:

God revealed Himself to us through His Son, but the Jews knew Him first because God revealed Himself to the Jews first. God revealed Himself to the Jews through their history and their prophets, NOT through His Son. That's the difference. The Father is also I AM. Yahweh is the Hebrew name of God the Father, and Yeshua is the Hebrew name for Jesus. It means "Yahweh is Salvation." Both are I Am because there is only one God. Both Father and Son are one God. The Jews know Him as Yahweh (the Father) while Christians know Him as Yeshua (The Son). God revealed Himself to the Jews first through their prophets and their history. Then He revealed Himself through His Son, Yeshua. Christians know Him through His Son while the Jews knew Him in a different way.....a way, which God revealed Himself through their history. Since the Jews don't know the Son, they can find out about Him through the Christians, which is why we dialogue with them.

I said that both the Father and the Son are "I AM" because there is only one God. God revealed Himself to the Jews through their prophets and their history. They knew Him as Yahweh because God revealed His name to them. As for Christians, God revealed Himself through the person of His Son, Jesus. As a result, Christians know God's true nature in that He is three Persons in one God. I said that both the Father and the Son are "I AM" because there is only one God.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Read what I post as a whole instead of taking one sentence out of context. This is what I said in Post number 81:

God revealed Himself to us through His Son, but the Jews knew Him first because God revealed Himself to the Jews first. God revealed Himself to the Jews through their history and their prophets, NOT through His Son. That's the difference. The Father is also I AM. Yahweh is the Hebrew name of God the Father, and Yeshua is the Hebrew name for Jesus. It means "Yahweh is Salvation." Both are I Am because there is only one God. Both Father and Son are one God. The Jews know Him as Yahweh (the Father) while Christians know Him as Yeshua (The Son). God revealed Himself to the Jews first through their prophets and their history. Then He revealed Himself through His Son, Yeshua. Christians know Him through His Son while the Jews knew Him in a different way.....a way, which God revealed Himself through their history. Since the Jews don't know the Son, they can find out about Him through the Christians, which is why we dialogue with them.

I said that both the Father and the Son are "I AM" because there is only one God. God revealed Himself to the Jews through their prophets and their history. They knew Him as Yahweh because God revealed His name to them. As for Christians, God revealed Himself through the person of His Son, Jesus. As a result, Christians know God's true nature in that He is three Persons in one God. I said that both the Father and the Son are "I AM" because there is only one God.

oy, no. you really need to read Patristics. God is always revealed by His Son in the Spirit. Yahweh is not the Hebrew name of the Father.
 
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Selene03

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oy, no. you really need to read Patristics. God is always revealed by His Son in the Spirit. Yahweh is not the Hebrew name of the Father.

YHWH is the name of God revealed to the Jews, and this is who they worship. In the Old Testament, God did NOT reveal Himself through His Son because the Son was the Messiah whom God promised to send. The Jews were waiting for the Messiah.
 
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ArmyMatt

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YHWH is the name of God revealed to the Jews, and this is who they worship. In the Old Testament, God did NOT reveal Himself through His Son because the Son was the Messiah whom God promised to send.

that is totally untrue. 6th Ecumenical Council disproves this as does pretty much all of the 2nd and 3rd Century apologists.

the Son was not Incarnate, but to say God didn't reveal Himself to the Jews through His Son is absolutely false.
 
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Selene03

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that is totally untrue. 6th Ecumenical Council disproves this as does pretty much all of the 2nd and 3rd Century apologists.

the Son was not Incarnate, but to say God didn't reveal Himself to the Jews through His Son is absolutely false.

According to the Catholic Church (the bold is mine):

21. We find in the Old Testament God’s plan of salvation presented for his people (cf. "Dei verbum", 14). This plan of salvation is expressed in an enlightening way at the beginning of biblical history in the call to Abraham (Gen 12ff). In order to reveal himself and speak to humankind, redeeming it from sin and gathering it together as one people, God began by choosing the people of Israel through Abraham and setting them apart. To them God revealed himself gradually through his emissaries, his prophets, as the true God, the only God, the living God, the redeeming God.

“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29) - A reflection on theological questions pertaining to Catholic-Jewish relations (10 December 2015)


To the Israelites (Jews), God revealed Himself through their prophets and in their history. It was through their prophets that the Jews of the Old Testament came to know God. For Christians today, the Word of God is Jesus. For the Jews today, the Word of God is the teachings of their Torah.
 
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ArmyMatt

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According to the Catholic Church (the bold is mine):

21. We find in the Old Testament God’s plan of salvation presented for his people (cf. "Dei verbum", 14). This plan of salvation is expressed in an enlightening way at the beginning of biblical history in the call to Abraham (Gen 12ff). In order to reveal himself and speak to humankind, redeeming it from sin and gathering it together as one people, God began by choosing the people of Israel through Abraham and setting them apart. To them God revealed himself gradually through his emissaries, his prophets, as the true God, the only God, the living God, the redeeming God.

“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29) - A reflection on theological questions pertaining to Catholic-Jewish relations (10 December 2015)


To the Israelites (Jews), God revealed Himself through their prophets and in their history. It was through their prophets that the Jews of the Old Testament came to know God. For Christians today, the Word of God is Jesus. For the Jews today, the Word of God is the teachings of their Torah.

I am not RC. I really don't care what the catechism says. that being said, the Catechism neither refutes what I said, nor does it affirm what you have said.

as for the Catholic-Jewish relations quote, again, the Fathers disagree with what you have been saying.
 
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Selene03

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I am not RC. I really don't care what the catechism says. that being said, the Catechism neither refutes what I said, nor does it affirm what you have said.

as for the Catholic-Jewish relations quote, again, the Fathers disagree with what you have been saying.

The Old Testament shows that God revealed Himself to His chosen people through the prophets and in their history.....plain and simple. The Catechism refuted what you said because you've always claimed that the Israelites of the Old Testament was revealed through the Son. You also said that "I AM" is Jesus. But I told you that both the Father and the Son are "I AM" because there is only one God.

The Jews worship the same God of Abraham whom Christians worship. The only difference is that Christians know the true nature of God because we have both the Old and New Testament whereas the Jews only have the Old Testament. Nevertheless, it is our duty to dialogue with the Jews and all other non-Christians so that they can also come to know Jesus Christ.

After the retreat with the 120 Jewish Rabbis in 2015, the founder of the Neocatechumenal Way, Kiko Argello, was interviewed. He was asked, "At the end of the meeting what has been the reaction of the rabbis?" According to Arguello:

"We received exciting experiences. A Rabbi of Israel, Rabbi David Brodman, started giving an experience that moved the assembly. He spoke of this meeting as a crucial meeting, of this relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jewish world that he never could have expected. He said: "This was my dream. I wanted - and the Lord gives me, at the end of my life - to see these things. " He cited a book by a rabbi who is very important to him; He said that we are in a time when we are experiencing "labor pains" to prepare for the arrival of the Messiah in our midst, and he's already seeing all this; Also in this meeting, he saw it as a preparation for this coming of the Messiah. Then there was another rabbi of Holland who also told his experience as a child he was saved by a Christian family. And also speaking of this meeting, he said: "I have really seen God work in our midst." Another rabbi who said: "I tell you frankly, that I realized something, listening to Kiko. I in my family, in my tradition, I never heard that God loves us ", and said with a force that moved the assembly. "I saw him here, in this house. - He said - I saw him really in the facts: how they welcomed us ... ", in the experiences that I have heard in the groups, how these couples spoke, these families, these brothers of the Neocatechumenal Way, saying with their lives, how God loved them, how he had redeemed them, saved them ... He said: "Well here, I asked my wife: 'But you, for example, have you heard from someone in your life, in the synagogue, this word, that God loves us? '". And his wife said to him: "No, I have not ever heard, ever heard!". And the rabbi said: "Me too ...". Also the experience of Rabbi Greenberg of the United States was very moved. The environment that was created at the end you cannot describe it, really! Then, we also had very familiar times, we had dances ... there was a spirit of communion that was very strong!"

The Jewish Rabbis were fascinated when they heard the Gospel that some felt so moved by it. They have never read the Holy Bible. They have never heard about the "Love of God." Why? Because the Love of God can only be found in the New Testament. Since 2015, we have been holding these retreats with the Jewish Rabbis at their request. And the Catholic Church continues to share the feast of the Epiphany with the Jews every year so that they can come to know Christ.
 
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ArmyMatt

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The Old Testament shows that God revealed Himself to His chosen people through the prophets and in their history.....plain and simple. The Catechism refuted what you said because you've always claimed that the Israelites of the Old Testament was revealed through the Son. You also said that "I AM" is Jesus. But I told you that both the Father and the Son are "I AM" because there is only one God.

The Jews worship the same God of Abraham whom Christians worship. The only difference is that Christians know the true nature of God because we have both the Old and New Testament whereas the Jews only have the Old Testament. Nevertheless, it is our duty to dialogue with the Jews and all other non-Christians so that they can also come to know Jesus Christ.

After the retreat with the 120 Jewish Rabbis in 2015, the founder of the Neocatechumenal Way, Kiko Argello, was interviewed. He was asked, "At the end of the meeting what has been the reaction of the rabbis?" According to Arguello:

"We received exciting experiences. A Rabbi of Israel, Rabbi David Brodman, started giving an experience that moved the assembly. He spoke of this meeting as a crucial meeting, of this relationship between the Catholic Church and the Jewish world that he never could have expected. He said: "This was my dream. I wanted - and the Lord gives me, at the end of my life - to see these things. " He cited a book by a rabbi who is very important to him; He said that we are in a time when we are experiencing "labor pains" to prepare for the arrival of the Messiah in our midst, and he's already seeing all this; Also in this meeting, he saw it as a preparation for this coming of the Messiah. Then there was another rabbi of Holland who also told his experience as a child he was saved by a Christian family. And also speaking of this meeting, he said: "I have really seen God work in our midst." Another rabbi who said: "I tell you frankly, that I realized something, listening to Kiko. I in my family, in my tradition, I never heard that God loves us ", and said with a force that moved the assembly. "I saw him here, in this house. - He said - I saw him really in the facts: how they welcomed us ... ", in the experiences that I have heard in the groups, how these couples spoke, these families, these brothers of the Neocatechumenal Way, saying with their lives, how God loved them, how he had redeemed them, saved them ... He said: "Well here, I asked my wife: 'But you, for example, have you heard from someone in your life, in the synagogue, this word, that God loves us? '". And his wife said to him: "No, I have not ever heard, ever heard!". And the rabbi said: "Me too ...". Also the experience of Rabbi Greenberg of the United States was very moved. The environment that was created at the end you cannot describe it, really! Then, we also had very familiar times, we had dances ... there was a spirit of communion that was very strong!"

The Jewish Rabbis were fascinated when they heard the Gospel that some felt so moved by it. They have never read the Holy Bible. They have never heard about the "Love of God." Why? Because the Love of God can only be found in the New Testament. Since 2015, we have been holding these retreats with the Jewish Rabbis at their request. And the Catholic Church continues to share the feast of the Epiphany with the Jews every year so that they can come to know Christ.

oy, God the Son was the one Who always appeared to the Prophets. so what you referenced doesn't refute what I said. which means it is still by the Son that the Father would reveal things to. seriously, read the Church Fathers.

and meetings between Rabbis and RC are irrelevant to this discussion.
 
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Selene03

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oy, God the Son was the one Who always appeared to the Prophets. which means it is still by the Son that the Father would reveal things to. seriously, read the Church Fathers.

and meetings between Rabbis and RC are irrelevant to this discussion.

I was speaking about God's revelation......how He revealed Himself. God revealed Himself to the Israelites through their prophets and in their history. The Prophets of the Old Testament spoke under the Holy Spirit. To the Christians, He revealed Himself through His Son. The Jews have only the Old Testament, and it was through their prophets and in their history that God revealed Himself to them. To the Christians, He revealed Himself through His Son.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

On the contrary, the dialogue with the Jews is relevant because someone under this thread already posted that the Jews worship a false god.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I was speaking about God's revelation......how He revealed Himself. God revealed Himself to the Israelites through their prophets and in their history. The Prophets of the Old Testament spoke under the Holy Spirit. To the Christians, He revealed Himself through His Son. The Jews have only the Old Testament, and it was through their prophets and in their history that God revealed Himself to them. To the Christians, He revealed Himself through His Son.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

On the contrary, the dialogue with the Jews is relevant because someone under this thread already posted that the Jews worship a false god.

so am I. God the Son revealed Himself. whenever a prophet was given a vision of God, it was always the pre-Incarnate Son. again, please read the Fathers.

and it's totally irrelevant since this is the Orthodox forum. Jews and Rome getting together and having good dialogues is irrelevant to whether or not they worship a false god.

and they do. you cannot worship God if you reject the Son. period.

again, please read the Fathers. they know what they are talking about.
 
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TheLostCoin

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John 8:39-44
Matthew 10:32-33
Luke 12:8-9
Luke 9:26
Luke 10:16
John 3:31-36
1 John 2:21-25
1 John 5:6-12

Do you need any more Bible verses which explicitly say that those who reject Christ reject God?
 
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Selene03

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so am I. God the Son revealed Himself. whenever a prophet was given a vision of God, it was always the pre-Incarnate Son. again, please read the Fathers.

and it's totally irrelevant since this is the Orthodox forum. Jews and Rome getting together and having good dialogues is irrelevant to whether or not they worship a false god.

and they do. you cannot worship God if you reject the Son. period.

again, please read the Fathers. they know what they are talking about.

It was the Holy Spirit that spoke through the prophets just as Scripture says:

Acts 28:25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our[fn] fathers,

Even the Church Fathers will not go against Scripture. When Scripture says the Holy Spirit spoke through Isaiah, then it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Isaiah. And when God revealed His name to Moses, it was God the Father speaking through the Son. That is why I said that both Father and Son is “I AM.” You, on the other hand, claimed that Jesus was “I AM”.

This is why I said in the beginning to be very careful when judging the Jews and calling the God they worship a false God. The God they worship is YHWH, whom Jesus calls His Father and whom you say is a false god.
 
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It was the Holy Spirit that spoke through the prophets just as Scripture says:

Acts 28:25 So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: “The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our[fn] fathers,

Even the Church Fathers will not go against Scripture. When Scripture says the Holy Spirit spoke through Isaiah, then it was the Holy Spirit speaking through Isaiah. And when God revealed His name to Moses, it was God the Father speaking through the Son. That is why I said that both Father and Son is “I AM.” You, on the other hand, claimed that Jesus was “I AM”.

This is why I said in the beginning to be very careful when judging the Jews and calling the God they worship a false God. The God they worship is YHWH, whom Jesus calls His Father and whom you say is a false god.

no, please stop misrepresenting what I am saying. I said when God appeared to the prophets, it was the pre-Incarnate Son. yes, Christ is the I Am. I have never said the Father is not the I Am, I only made a reference to John's Gospel.

and lastly, YHWH is the true God. the Jews don't worship Him.

please don't put words in my mouth.
 
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