Can a Muslim or a Jew get saved?

[ArmyMatt]

We were the Gentiles. The word "Christian" was first applied to the Gentile converts in Antioch.

Acts 11:26 and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

no, because even in that quote, it mentions Saul, who was a Jew.

the 12 were disciples, and Jews. the 70 were disciples and Jews. it does not say the Gentiles were first called Christians at Antioch, it says disciples. the disciples at that time were comprised of both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Selene03]

That doesn't say there are two covenants. And if Jews were meant to be under some separate covenant, that erases practically the WHOLE early church, at Pentecost and a beyond a bit even. Who were all Jews.

Why is it that modern Jews are somehow special, but all of these Jews in the New Testament followed and were responsible for spreading the word of Christ?

They were ALL Christians. Both Jews and Gentiles.

The Jews are still under the law....under the Old Covenant.

1 Corinthians 9:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

The Jews are still under the law of the Old Covenant. Christians follow the New Covenant, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[straykat]

The Jews are still under the law....under the Old Covenant.

1 Corinthians 9:20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

The Jews are still under the law of the Old Covenant.

That's by choice. Not by nature. St. Paul was a Jew too, but he wasn't under the law - he said he became "like one" under it. In other words, he was diplomatic and met people where they were in life... for the ultimate goal of showing them the love of Christ.

Christ literally tore the veil of the Holy of Holies at his crucifixion. That was the end of the old covenant.

Secondly, even Jews can't fully follow the Torah anymore anyways, like those Jews who could when Paul wrote that. The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. There is literally no way to practice Mosaic laws without the Temple. "Synagogue" Judaism was a creation much later, when Jews decided what they could make of their beliefs, without a temple. Ask any Orthodox Jew, and they'll confirm this. That their religion is incomplete without the Temple. Only the liberal ones (who often don't even believe in the Torah to begin with) don't care either way.

But that Temple is gone for a specific reason: Christ prophesied it would be destroyed. And he became the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. There is no other. Saying people should keep sacrificing is an abomination.

 

[Selene03]

no, because even in that quote, it mentions Saul, who was a Jew.

the 12 were disciples, and Jews. the 70 were disciples and Jews. it does not say the Gentiles were first called Christians at Antioch, it says disciples. the disciples at that time were comprised of both Jew and Gentile.

The Apostles never called themselves "Christians." They are the Jewish converts, and some of them like the Apostle James wanted the Gentile converts to be circumcised and follow Jewish customs and laws. At the Council of Jerusalem, it was determined that the Gentile converts don't need to be circumcised and follow Jewish laws. That put an end to the Judaizers who tried to impose their laws on the Gentile Christians. The Jews who are not converts are Jews.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The Apostles never called themselves "Christians." They are the Jewish converts, and some of them like the Apostle James wanted the Gentile converts to be circumcised and follow Jewish customs and laws. At the Council of Jerusalem, it was determined that the Gentile converts don't need to be circumcised and follow Jewish laws. That put an end to the Judaizers who tried to impose their laws on the Gentile Christians. The Jews who are not converts are Jews.

yeah they did. the verse you just mentioned, mentions Paul and Barnabas, who were at Antioch when the disciples were called Christians.

 

[Selene03]

That's by choice. Not by nature. St. Paul was a Jew too, but he wasn't under the law - he said he became "like one" under it. In other words, he was diplomatic and met people where they were in life... for the ultimate goal of showing them the love of Christ.

Christ literally tore the veil of the Holy of Holies at his crucifixion. That was the end of the old covenant.

Secondly, even Jews can't fully follow the Torah anymore anyways, like those Jews who could when Paul wrote that. The Temple was destroyed in 70 AD. There is literally no way to practice Mosaic laws without the Temple. "Synagogue" Judaism was a creation much later, when Jews decided what they could make of their beliefs, without a temple. Ask any Orthodox Jew, and they'll confirm this. That their religion is incomplete without the Temple. Only the liberal ones (who often don't even believe in the Torah to begin with) don't care either way.

But that Temple is gone for a specific reason: Christ prophesied it would be destroyed. And he became the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. There is no other. Saying people should keep sacrificing is an abomination.

That's true. St. Paul was not under the law. The point is he mentioned the Jews who are under the law, so they exist and are not Christians.

 

[straykat]

That's true. St. Paul was not under the law. The point is he mentioned the Jews who are under the law, so they exist and are not Christians.

They existed that way by choice, and he wanted to save his brothers, by "speaking their language", so to speak.

And like I said, this was before 70 AD anyhow. They actually had a temple when Paul wrote that letter. Now it's gone. And been gone. And they can't even follow the law anymore anyways.

 

[Selene03]

yeah they did. the verse you just mentioned, mentions Paul and Barnabas, who were at Antioch when the disciples were called Christians.

It was the disciples in Antioch who were called Christians. Paul and Barnabus were not from Antioch.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It was the disciples in Antioch who were called Christians. Paul and Barnabus were not from Antioch.

the disciples were in Antioch, it doesn't say only those who were FROM Antioch

 

[Selene03]

They existed that way by choice, and he wanted to save his brothers, by "speaking their language", so to speak.

And like I said, this was before 70 AD anyhow. They actually had a temple when Paul wrote that letter. Now it's gone. And been gone. And they can't even follow the law anyways.

The point is.....these people who are under the law exist. They were the Jews and the Jews still exist today just as they did in Paul's time. And it was Paul who said that God is a God of the Jews and Gentiles. By Jews, he meant those under the law.

 

[Selene03]

the disciples were in Antioch, it doesn't say only those who were FROM Antioch

Scripture shows that St. Paul never called himself a Christian. See Acts 21:39. He was a Jewish convert.

 

[straykat]

The point is.....these people who are under the law exist. They were the Jews and the Jews still exist today just as they did in Paul's time. And it was Paul who said that God is a God of the Jews and Gentiles. By Jews, he meant those under the law.

They don't exist. Jews exist, of course. But people under the Law? No.. the Temple is gone. They're all breaking the law. Witness the good humor of the Lord. People can't commit their abominations, even if they wanted to.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Scripture shows that St. Paul never called himself a Christian. See Acts 21:39.

so what? St Paul never uses the word Trinity either. plus, Agrippa calls St Paul a Christian, and St Psul certainly seems to agree.

and your reference from Acts has a context, and it's not good to think you are making a point by plucking a single verse without its context.

 

[Selene03]

so what? St Paul never uses the word Trinity either. plus, Agrippa calls St Paul a Christian, and St Psul certainly seems to agree.

and your reference from Acts has a context, and it's not good to think you are making a point by plucking a single verse without its context.

My brother, Paul stated that God is a God of both the Jews and Christians. They follow the Old Covenant, which also comes from the one true God. One cannot say they worship a false God because the God who gave us the New Covenant is the same God who gave them the Old Covenant. Scripture says that God is a God of both the Jews and Christians.

 

[ArmyMatt]

My brother, Paul stated that God is a God of both the Jews and Christians. They follow the Old Covenant, which also cones from the one true God. One cannot say they worship a false God because the God who gave us the New Covenant is the same God who gave them the Old Covenant. Scripture says that God is a God of both the Jews and Christians.

no, St Paul said Jew and Gentile, not Jew and Christian. the Old Covenant's purpose was Christ. He fulfilled the Old Covenant. the Jews, according TO CHRIST HIMSELF, do not anymore follow the God of Abraham, since they don't follow their own Messiah.

 

[Selene03]

They don't exist. Jews exist, of course. But people under the Law? No.. the Temple is gone. They're all breaking the law. Witness the good humor of the Lord. People can't commit their abominations, even if they wanted to.

The temple is gone, but the people who follow the Old Covenant law still exist. The Old Covenant was established by God and what was established by God can never be an abomination.

 

[Selene03]

no, St Paul said Jew and Gentile, not Jew and Christian. the Old Covenant's purpose was Christ. He fulfilled the Old Covenant. the Jews, according TO CHRIST HIMSELF, do not anymore follow the God of Abraham, since they don't follow their own Messiah.

What do you mean that one doesn't need to follow the God of Abraham? Who is the God of Abraham?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What do you mean that one doesn't need to follow the God of Abraham? Who is the God of Abraham?

one does need to follow the God of Abraham. I never said people don't need to. I said the Jews don't because Christ is the God of Abraham, and He says they don't follow Him.

 

[Selene03]

one does need to follow the God of Abraham. I never said people don't need to. I said the Jews don't because Christ is the God of Abraham, and He says they don't follow Him.

That is partially correct, my brother. The God of Abraham is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are three persons in one God. It would be incorrect to say that the God of Abraham is Jesus Christ when in truth The God of Abraham is the Holy Trinity. Many Christians recognize that Jesus is God but often forget the Father and Holy Spirit.

The Jews recognize God the Father, which can be seen in the Old Testament. It's the Son, they don't recognize. As I said, the Jews are ignorant of God's nature....that He is three persons in one God. And they are still waiting for the Messiah.

1 Chronicles 29:10 Therefore David blessed the LORD before all the assembly; and David said: “Blessed are You, LORD God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That is partially correct, my brother. The God of Abraham is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are three persons in one God. It would be incorrect to say that the God of Abraham is Jesus Christ when in truth The God of Abraham is the Holy Trinity. Many Christians recognize that Jesus is God but often forget the Father and Holy Spirit.

The Jews recognize God the Father, which can be seen in the Old Testament. It's the Son, they don't recognize. As I said, the Jews are ignorant of God's nature....that He is three persons in one God. And they are still waiting for the Messiah.

1 Chronicles 29:10 Therefore David blessed the LORD before all the assembly; and David said: “Blessed are You, LORD God of Israel, our Father, forever and ever.

except, again, Christ says otherwise. in John's Gospel, Christ identifies as the I Am of the OT. the Father is not what the Jews recognize, since it is impossible to know the Father apart from the Son and the Spirit.