Can a just God be a dispensationalist?

[William Lefranc]

Sir you are making it too easy for us to defend dispensationalism.

Why you ask? Because those who claim the covenants given to the Patriarchs now belong to the church have very little if any respect for or desire to own (most of) the actual terms and conditions of the actual covenants.

I don't believe in Replacement Theology if that is what you are thinking. God's people have always been people of faith. No faith, no dice. Heb. 11:6 clearly states that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Anyone who has read the OT can clearly see how God judged Israel for its lack of faith, for breaking His covenant and for going after other gods. In the NT, we have Christ the new covenant giver who shed His blood for all peoples so that those who believed in Him would become a new creation in Christ.

If you are hoping that modern Israel somehow is going to start believing in Christ, you don't have your eyes in the right place. John 19:30 is the declaration that Jesus finished His work of redemption for all peoples and for all time. There is no need to look for a special redemption for a people that had 2,000 years to repent, yet for the most part they are still full of unbelief.

God does not beg anyone to come to His Son. Israel was finished when God judged them for all the sins that they committed from the very beginning.

Matthew 23:34–39 (NASB95)
34 “Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36“Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!"

39“For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

By the way, there are about half a million Jews today that love the Lord and have become part of Jesus' church. Jesus is still the door and way to the heart of the Father. (Jn 10:6, 14:6)

 

[thomas15]

Anyone who has read the OT can clearly see how God judged Israel for its lack of faith, for breaking His covenant and for going after other gods. In the NT, we have Christ the new covenant giver who shed His blood for all peoples so that those who believed in Him would become a new creation in Christ.

I haven't noticed anyone disagreeing with you or anyone else that Israel has been subject to judgement due to disobedience. Nor have I noticed anyone from the dispensational camp try to claim that anything other than trusting in the shed blood of the resurrected Christ saves the individual as outlined in the Holy Bible.

What I have noticed is your inability to engage in useful debate with respect to the sins of the church and the concept that if Jehovah would break his promises to the Israelites then what would stop him from doing the same to the church.

 

[thomas15]

Dispensationalism is false from the get-go because it separates what God has united in Christ. God has always had one people of faith in both the OT and the NT.

By the way, you probably already know this and simply forgot but this is one of the exact same arguments that Catholics use against Protestants in an attempt to get them to forget the reformation and swim the Tiber.

 

[William Lefranc]

I haven't noticed anyone disagreeing with you or anyone else that Israel has been subject to judgement due to disobedience. Nor have I noticed anyone from the dispensational camp try to claim that anything other than trusting in the shed blood of the resurrected Christ saves the individual as outlined in the Holy Bible.

What I have noticed is your inability to engage in useful debate with respect to the sins of the church and the concept that if Jehovah would break his promises to the Israelites then what would stop him from doing the same to the church.

 

[Biblewriter]

There are no promises to national Israel to return to the land in the NT. The promises are only judgment. After all, you don't think God would continue to work with a nation that killed their own Messiah and went on to persecute God's people (Jewish believers in Christ) to the death, don't you?

The truth is that Jesus is God's last word to Israel. Those who believed in Him, left national Israel's Judaism to become a new creation in Christ. Thousands upon thousands of Jews were born again at the preaching of the gospel while Jerusalem was burned to the ground for having committed the unthinkable crime.

God's people are and will always be those who have His Spirit (Ro. 8:9). Today, we have a secular, ungodly and Christ-hater nation in the Middle East. Don't you think people like you are working against God's purposes by elevating a secular nation that God judged 2,000 years ago?

The fact that none of the promises to return to the land are in the Net Testament is immaterial. God made promises, and attached no condition to those promises. Thus, God committed Himself to keeping those promises.

If God could righteously annul the promises he made to the nation of Israel, he could fully as righteously annul the promises he made to us. So your doctrine destroys the ONLY basis for out faith. For if God's promises are not ABSOLUTELY
reliable, we have zero basis for our faith.

But, although the New testament contains no promise of a return to the land for Israel, it does repeatedly promise their restoration to Himself.

 

[William Lefranc]

No dice. The old covenant cannot trump the new one, ignore the cross and force

The fact that none of the promises to return to the land are in the Net Testament is immaterial. God made promises, and attached no condition to those promises. Thus, God committed Himself to keeping those promises.

If God could righteously annul the promises he made to the nation of Israel, he could fully as righteously annul the promises he made to us. So your doctrine destroys the ONLY basis for out faith. For if God's promises are not ABSOLUTELY
reliable, we have zero basis for our faith.

But, although the New testament contains no promise of a return to the land for Israel, it does repeatedly promise their restoration to Himself.

There is a biblical principle that you must understand above all things in your studying of the word of God,
1) The OT does not trump the NT nor does it ignore it. The NT fulfills and explains the old while the old is the foundation from which the new is built on.
2) Taking promises from the OT while laying aside the NT gives the idea that the cross and the redemption of man is not that important because it doesn't cover OT promises. It does.
3) All the promises that God made to Israel were wrapped up in the PERSON of the Lord Jesus Christ because He is the reason why we exist and our hope for eternity.
He is the end from the beginning, the first and the last, and the Alpha and the Omega. Christ is all and all (Rev. 22:13, Col. 3:11).
4) The purpose of the scriptures is for us to discover how God redeemed man and restored him to fellowship with Himself. That's the main purpose.

Israel was simply the means God chose in order to fulfill His goal on the earth. You treat Israel as if this sinful nation that broke the covenants, tore down God's altars, corrupted themselves with demonic idols, killed their own Messiah and went on to persecute God's people (Jews that believed in Christ) should be treated with kids' gloves because after all the spoiled brats could do no wrong.

No, Jesus is the last Israelite and the only one who obeyed the Father perfectly. All of Israel was in Him when He went to the cross and redeemed the nation and the world. When they refused to repent they failed to receive eternal forgiveness of sins (no more sacrifices, no more temple, no more priesthood, etc.), failed to receive their promised redemption and failed to enter into life eternal by embracing the gift of the Holy Spirit.

God's people have always and will always be a people of faith in Christ. You take Christ out of the picture, and you have absolutely nothing.

Let's not wait in vain. God will not be mocked.

Galatians 6:7 (NASB95)
7 "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap."

 

[Biblewriter]

No dice. The old covenant cannot trump the new one, ignore the cross and force


There is a biblical principle that you must understand above all things in your studying of the word of God,
1) The OT does not trump the NT nor does it ignore it. The NT fulfills and explains the old while the old is the foundation from which the new is built on.
2) Taking promises from the OT while laying aside the NT gives the idea that the cross and the redemption of man is not that important because it doesn't cover OT promises. It does.
3) All the promises that God made to Israel were wrapped up in the PERSON of the Lord Jesus Christ because He is the reason why we exist and our hope for eternity.
He is the end from the beginning, the first and the last, and the Alpha and the Omega. Christ is all and all (Rev. 22:13, Col. 3:11).
4) The purpose of the scriptures is for us to discover how God redeemed man and restored him to fellowship with Himself. That's the main purpose.

Israel was simply the means God chose in order to fulfill His goal on the earth. You treat Israel as if this sinful nation that broke the covenants, tore down God's altars, corrupted themselves with demonic idols, killed their own Messiah and went on to persecute God's people (Jews that believed in Christ) should be treated with kids' gloves because after all the spoiled brats could do no wrong.

No, Jesus is the last Israelite and the only one who obeyed the Father perfectly. All of Israel was in Him when He went to the cross and redeemed the nation and the world. When they refused to repent they failed to receive eternal forgiveness of sins (no more sacrifices, no more temple, no more priesthood, etc.), failed to receive their promised redemption and failed to enter into life eternal by embracing the gift of the Holy Spirit.

God's people have always and will always be a people of faith in Christ. You take Christ out of the picture, and you have absolutely nothing.

Let's not wait in vain. God will not be mocked.

Galatians 6:7 (NASB95)
7 "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap."

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You cannot produce even a part of a verse from the New Testament that even suggests that the Old Testament promises made to Israel will not actually be kept. But there are a number of New testament passages that plainly show that the physical nation of Israel, though currently locked in unbelief, will eventually be brought to repentance and will be blessed in the future.

 

[thomas15]

No, Jesus is the last Israelite and the only one who obeyed the Father perfectly.

No dispensationalist would disagree with you on this. However, it should be noted that there has not been any man before, during or in the future, Jew or Gentile, that will obey the Father perfectly. So it is hard to see what your point is.

All of Israel was in Him when He went to the cross and redeemed the nation and the world.

I'm sure you know this already and just simply forgot but Jesus was tried in both a Jewish court and a civil (gentile) court. In fact the Jewish court was unable to issue the death penalty so the civil (gentile) court was pressed into action. It was a Roman court, Roman nails, a Roman wooden cross and Roman soldiers that carried out the sentence. It was Roman guards that tried to guard the tomb to keep Jesus in the grave. The whole act of crucifixion is a Roman punishment.

When Jesus was tried and sentenced it as a combined team effort, Jew and Gentile.

In the case of the Apostle Paul, the same. The Jews asked for the trial but Rome took it from there. And was happy to do so.

But none of this should bring great comfort to the church as the sins of the church are many in these last days.

 

[William Lefranc]

You cannot produce even a part of a verse from the New Testament that even suggests that the Old Testament promises made to Israel will not actually be kept. But there are a number of New testament passages that plainly show that the physical nation of Israel, though currently locked in unbelief, will eventually be brought to repentance and will be blessed in the future.

I guess you got nothing from my previous post. I told you that the promises of God to Israel were Jesus Christ. All of the OT points to Him (Lk 24:24-27, 44-45, Jn 5:39-40).

 

[thomas15]

I guess you got nothing from my previous post. I told you that the promises of God to Israel were Jesus Christ. All of the OT points to Him (Lk 24:24-27, 44-45, Jn 5:39-40).

Allow me to answer that.

You have put up a bunch of Bible verses but haven't made any real point. That Jesus is the messiah, predicted in OT prophecy, and, true as that is, doesn't make the case that you are trying to make, whatever that might be. Words have meaning and a careful reading of the words of either the OT or NT do not make the case that the promises Jehovah made to the sons of Abraham have been cancelled or given to another. If that were the case, covenant theologians would not employ the Bible verse hair splitting and conjecture that they have relied on for centuries to attempt to make their case.

It is ironic that you agree that the OT predicts the exact nature of the Savior but disregard any other predictions made by that collection The Word of God. It seems that you have a double standard with regard to the Scriptures. Those you like and those you don't care for so much.

But if your trying to make the NT superior and subservient to the OT you might be interested in knowing that Jesus, referring to the OT said "-and the Scripture cannot be broken-" John 10:35. And this is just one of many times Jesus and the NT writers refer to the high value of the OT.

 

[William Lefranc]

Allow me to answer that.

You have put up a bunch of Bible verses but haven't made any real point. That Jesus is the messiah, predicted in OT prophecy, and, true as that is, doesn't make the case that you are trying to make, whatever that might be. Words have meaning and a careful reading of the words of either the OT or NT do not make the case that the promises Jehovah made to the sons of Abraham have been canceled or given to another. If that were the case, covenant theologians would not employ the Bible verse hair-splitting and conjecture that they have relied on for centuries to attempt to make their case.

Ironically, you agree that the OT predicts the exact nature of the Savior but disregard any other predictions made by that collection The Word of God. It seems that you have a double standard concerning the Scriptures. Those you like and those you don't care for so much.

But if your trying to make the NT superior and subservient to the OT you might be interested in knowing that Jesus, referring to the OT said "-and the Scripture cannot be broken-" John 10:35. And this is just one of many times Jesus and the NT writers refer to the high value of the OT.

For the last time. All the scriptures that were promised to Israel were fulfilled in the work of redemption that Jesus Christ accomplished at the cross. As the King of Israel (Matt. 27:42, Mark 15:32, Jn 1:49, 12:13), Jesus was the embodiment of all Israel and all the world.

What Jesus accomplished, He did as a covenant representative of the nation of Israel, which means that all of Israel had the opportunity to cash in and inherit all the promises that God made to them through faith in Jesus Christ. Most didn't while some did.

Not God's problem.

 

[Biblewriter]

For the last time. All the scriptures that were promised to Israel were fulfilled in the work of redemption that Jesus Christ accomplished at the cross. As the King of Israel (Matt. 27:42, Mark 15:32, Jn 1:49, 12:13), Jesus was the embodiment of all Israel and all the world.

What Jesus accomplished, He did as a covenant representative of the nation of Israel, which means that all of Israel had the opportunity to cash in and inherit all the promises that God made to them through faith in Jesus Christ. Most didn't while some did.

Not God's problem.

This is ABSOLUTELY incorrect. There were explicitly stated promises made to Israel that absolutely all of them would again inhabit their ancient homeland. This was reinforced with an explicitly and precise definition of the borders of the land in that day. These promises have most certainly never been fulfilled. And it is gross stupidity to even try to pretend that they have been fulfilled.

All your insistence and re-statement cannot change the fact that what you are saying is ABSOLUTELY incorrect.

 

[thomas15]

For the last time. All the scriptures that were promised to Israel were fulfilled in the work of redemption that Jesus Christ accomplished at the cross.

That Jesus is the promised savior, the lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world is not in dispute. That the son's of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are sinners is also not in dispute.

What is in dispute, and you have made no attempt to address, are the promises that Jehovah made to the patriarchs. Those promises were given without condition and repeated numerous times. There is no place in the Bible where those promises are revoked. Obviously we read different Bibles because the God in my Bible is trustworthy and keeps his word in spite of my (and your) personal failings.

 

[William Lefranc]

What is in dispute, and you have made no attempt to address, are the promises that Jehovah made to the patriarchs. Those promises were given without condition and repeated numerous times. There is no place in the Bible where those promises are revoked. Obviously we read different Bibles because the God in my Bible is trustworthy and keeps his word in spite of my (and your) personal failings.[/QUOTE]

There is no dispute. God's intention for raising up Israel was to prepare people to give birth to the world's deliverer and undo the sin of Adam. God never chose Israel just because He wanted to have a pet people for Himself. They were wicked sinners just as the rest of the world.

Everything that God did with Israel had to do with His Messiah. The entire existence of this world revolves about Jesus being the Savior of the world. If you disconnect the Patriarchs from Jesus, you have another gospel that goes nowhere fast.

Below is your answer to the promises to the Patriarchs: JESUS CHRIST, LORD, MESSIAH AND DELIVERER...

Galatians 3:6–9 (NASB95)
6 "Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer."

Galatians 3:16 (NASB95)
16 "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ."

 

[thomas15]

Galatians 3:6–9 (NASB95)

.....................

On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
Genesis 15:17-21

.......................

" And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. I give to you and your descendants after you the land which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
Genesis 17:2-8


There it is the covenant. Seems simple enough, land promises which you seem to have a problem with.

 

[William Lefranc]

.....................

On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
Genesis 15:17-21

.......................

" And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. I give to you and your descendants after you the land which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
Genesis 17:2-8


There it is the covenant. Seems simple enough, land promises which you seem to have a problem with.

You are the one with the problem. I gave you scriptures that you willfully ignored because it doesn't fit your learned dogma.

Galatians 3:6–9 (NASB95)
6 "Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer."

Galatians 3:16 (NASB95)
16 "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ."

 

[thomas15]

You are the one with the problem. I gave you scriptures that you willfully ignored because it doesn't fit your learned dogma.

I give you Scripture that clearly show that Jehovah made promises to specific individuals with no conditions. I ask you to show Scripture that prove that Jehovah changed his mind, went back on his promise. This you cannot do because none exists. Furthermore, not happy that you have a belief system that takes the God's promises from another and awards them to yourselves, you then proceed to insist that the actual details of the now hijacked promises are not important to you. And yet you think I have a problem. If I have a problem as you claim it is that I take God's word seriously and believe that He is worthy of my faith and trust.

 

[thomas15]

(comment not central to the discussion) sorry

 

[William Lefranc]

I give you Scripture that clearly show that Jehovah made promises to specific individuals with no conditions. I ask you to show Scripture that prove that Jehovah changed his mind, went back on his promise.

I have already given you the answer. The promises of the Lord to Israel was Jesus Christ. He fulfilled all the hopes Israel had as a nation. He was their glory and their hope (Lk 2:32, Acts 28:20). What you fail to see is that the promises of God depended on their response of faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6).

You also forget that Israel lived under the old covenant which was conditional at heart. For the most part, Israel refused to believe God at His word and at the end, they killed the promise that God had given to them (Jesus). Jesus was the God of Israel who gave Himself to them.

I think we have gone through this too long. I'm stopping here.

Have a good day,

 

[thomas15]

I have already given you the answer.

It is true that you have given an answer. Your answer is however is for a different question than the one under consideration.

Read the covenant. I had in a previous post copied the Abrahamic covenant for your convenience.

Also for your convenience, please note that there are different types of covenants. I'm sure you already know this but simply forgot. The Abrahamic, Davidic and New covenants are examples of Royal Land Grant covenants. As opposed to Suzerian-vassal covenants (example: Sinatic covenant) which are conditional, Royal Land Grant covenants are unconditional and perpetual. Since they are unconditional and perpetual they will be fulfilled in the precise detail.

As you know there are several passages of Scripture detailing the New covenant, Here is probably the most complete single passage (again for your convenience I have highlighted the main points):

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant* (* an unconditional Royal Land Grant covenant) with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD*. (<---*the conditional Suzerian-vassal Sinaitic covenant)

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
Jeremiah 31:31-34

and it goes on with more detail but I think this is enough to make the point. It was this new covenant that was ratified by the blood of Christ. It is an unconditional covenant made with the house of Israel and the house of Jacob not the gentile church. While you are at it notice that in the Abrahamic covenant there is some blessings for the gentile nations for which we should be thankful.