Can a Christian support pro-choice? Poll

[dreadnought]

No, he didn't. In answer to a question about HIV and AIDS, he said that we need comprehensive sex education, and that things like STDs and pregnancy should not be considered punishments that children deserve for having sex.

Jesus and God had their teachings about sex, and Barack Obama had his.

 

[JackRT]

"The law does not provide that the act of abortion pertains to homicide, for there cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation..."--St Augustine

"The intellective soul i.e., true person is created by God at the completion of man's coming into being." -- St Thomas Aquinas

"Many modern philosophers and theologians return to St. Thomas' view."-- Fr Joseph F. Donceel, S.J.

"To admit that the human fetus receives the intellectual soul from the moment of its conception, when matter is in no way ready for it, sounds to me like a philosophical absurdity. It is as absurd as to call a fertilized ovum a baby." --Jacques Maritain

"Many people believe that the Roman Catholic Church's opposition to abortion stems from its conviction that a new human person exists from the first moment of conception...It is clear that this is not now, or has ever been, official church teaching on the matter."--James T. McCartney

"In the rabbinic tradition...abortion remains a non-capital crime at worst."--Rabbi David Feldman

The Scriptures are silent in defining when one becomes a person.

I believe that abortion should be legal, it should be safe, it should be available and it should be the woman’s informed choice but most important of all --- it should be rare. We should always keep in mind that there is no more powerful abortifacient in the world than poverty.

Sadly, there are those whose sole goal seems to be the total banning of abortion under all circumstances. There is a lot that could be done that would greatly reduce the abortion rate but those initiatives are largely ignored and are sometimes actually opposed.

 

[Desk trauma]

Isn't that the definition of murder?

Not in US law.

 

[jayem]

I suspect the Friends General Conference, which is a branch of the Quakers, likely supports reproductive choice. They are theologically non-dogmatic, and generally liberal politically. They say they are Christians, I believe them, and it would be against CF rules to deny that.

The link is an article on a Friends forum by a Quaker, who at the time was also an OB-GYN resident. He is pro-choice, but not strident or extremist.

https://www.friendsjournal.org/necessary-not-evil-abortion-and-the-stewardship-testimony/

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Amazing I come to check on this thread this morning and 43.5% of the Christians here say that they are okay with pro-choice? ((ABORTION)) ???

I think that one poster was correct. I probably posted this thread in the wrong Forum because it's hard to believe that that many Christians would be pro-choice supportive. ((ABORTION)) ???

M-Bob

 

[Desk trauma]

I can't imagine any person professing Christianity can support pro-choice. I can imagine religious hypocrites posing as Christian who will, but they will get a rude shock when they find themselves at the Judgment when they are confronted with millions of aborted babies saying, "Why have you done this to us, and not given us a chance at life?"

Why would they want the chance to suffer and possibly reject the Christian message thus being damned rather than having their conscious existence start in a perfect afterlife?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Amazing I come to check on this thread this morning and 43.5% of the Christians here say that they are okay with pro-choice? ((ABORTION)) ???

If it makes you feel any better, you didn't ask whether the members here were themselves okay with abortion. You asked them whether 'a Christian' can support abortion rights. Obviously, many do.

% of adults who say abortion should be… Legal in all/most cases
Religious tradition
Buddhist 82%
Catholic 48%
Evangelical Protestant 33%
Hindu 68%
Historically Black Protestant 52%
Jehovah's Witness 18%
Jewish 83%
Mainline Protestant 60%
Mormon 27%
Muslim 55%
Orthodox Christian 53%
Unaffiliated (religious "nones") 73%

 

[GeorgeJ]

If it makes you feel any better, you didn't ask whether the members here were themselves okay with abortion. You asked them whether 'a Christian' can support abortion rights. Obviously, many do.

% of adults who say abortion should be… Legal in all/most cases
Religious tradition
Buddhist 82%
Catholic 48%
Evangelical Protestant 33%
Hindu 68%
Historically Black Protestant 52%
Jehovah's Witness 18%
Jewish 83%
Mainline Protestant 60%
Mormon 27%
Muslim 55%
Orthodox Christian 53%
Unaffiliated (religious "nones") 73%

<SARCASM>
Well, it's obvious to me. The "Christians" in these percentages aren't born again Christians or they wouldn't be pro-choice, and thus aren't really Christian.
</SARCASM>

 

[ViaCrucis]

A person can be pro-choice and not be pro-abortion. The idea that pro-choice is the same thing as pro-abortion is why any meaningful discussion is basically impossible.

I'm not pro-abortion, I consider abortion horrendous and tragic. I also don't want to go back to a time when women were forced to do-it-yourself abortions or back alley abortions. The path toward curbing the number of abortions isn't some sort of fiat criminalization of terminating pregnancies, but addressing the underlying causes. A child should be regarded as a gift and a treasure, not as a punishment; but the way I often see the pro-life movement paint things it seems as though they want to punish women with a child, and if a child is treated like a punishment by society, rather than a gift of life, that is going to have disastrous effects, not just on the mother, but even moreso on the child.

I want to live in a society without abortion, but I want to get there the right way. If that I care about the lives of the already-born no less than I do the pre-born; that I care about what happens to the child after they are born and not just what happens to them before they are born makes me less "Christian" in the eyes of some is ultimately between them and God--I know where my conscience stands, and am prepared to stand before my Judge on that great day.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JackRT]

A person can be pro-choice and not be pro-abortion. The idea that pro-choice is the same thing as pro-abortion is why any meaningful discussion is basically impossible.

I'm not pro-abortion, I consider abortion horrendous and tragic. I also don't want to go back to a time when women were forced to do-it-yourself abortions or back alley abortions. The path toward curbing the number of abortions isn't some sort of fiat criminalization of terminating pregnancies, but addressing the underlying causes. A child should be regarded as a gift and a treasure, not as a punishment; but the way I often see the pro-life movement paint things it seems as though they want to punish women with a child, and if a child is treated like a punishment by society, rather than a gift of life, that is going to have disastrous effects, not just on the mother, but even moreso on the child.

I want to live in a society without abortion, but I want to get there the right way. If that I care about the lives of the already-born no less than I do the pre-born; that I care about what happens to the child after they are born and not just what happens to them before they are born makes me less "Christian" in the eyes of some is ultimately between them and God--I know where my conscience stands, and am prepared to stand before my Judge on that great day.

-CryptoLutheran

You have said it better than I possibly could have.

 

[Ken Rank]

Not in US law.

I don't care about US Law... I care about God's law.

 

[FireDragon76]

My church says yes, we are free to vote for pro-choice candidates and to have differing views of the ethics of abortion.

 

[Desk trauma]

I don't care about US Law... I care about God's law.

How does that work out day to day ignoring the law of the land?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't care about US Law... I care about God's law.

In the revealed Law of God it is pretty silent on this issue in any specific way; as such it is required that we think through these issues thoroughly, with a mind toward justice, i.e. what is right. And that means we have to take seriously a whole bunch of things into consideration: including philosophical matters such as human personhood. Is anything genetically human fully human? If that's the case then then that requires us to consider things such as amputation, the surgical removal of certain things (such as an appendectomy), or even blood transfusion/organ transplantation. At some level we all agree that simple human DNA is not itself sufficient for human personhood. And thus approaching the subject biologically means examining embryonic and fetal development. There are, of course, more metaphysical concerns to be addressed for people who believe in such things, relevant here is the matter of ensoulment; i.e. when (how? and from where?) does the soul come? And there have been many ways to answer that question throughout the history of the Church; the position that the soul is created at conception may be the most common opinion today, but it is far from universal dogma in the Christian Church (and never has been). This is a question that has been wrestled with by Christian philosophers and theologians for centuries.

What I think is dangerous is a kind of ham-fisted dogmatics that is achieved, not by thorough inquiry and consideration; but mere say-so, entirely without the aid of Divine Revelation as we have it through the history of God and His people as recorded in the holy texts of Scripture; and instead by sheer speculation.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ken Rank]

How does that work out day to day ignoring the law of the land?

I don't ignore the law of the land but I place greater weight on God's laws than on man's law. Abortion is murder to me and to the bible. By the time a woman finds out she is pregnant there is already a heart beat and brain wave activity. It's DNA is written and it will stand, already at THAT point, as one of the most advanced forms of life that we know of. If you are ok killing, that is your call. I will NEVER stand on that side.

 

[Ken Rank]

In the revealed Law of God it is pretty silent on this issue in any specific way; as such it is required that we think through these issues thoroughly, with a mind toward justice, i.e. what is right. And that means we have to take seriously a whole bunch of things into consideration: including philosophical matters such as human personhood. Is anything genetically human fully human? If that's the case then then that requires us to consider things such as amputation, the surgical removal of certain things (such as an appendectomy), or even blood transfusion/organ transplantation. At some level we all agree that simple human DNA is not itself sufficient for human personhood. And thus approaching the subject biologically means examining embryonic and fetal development. There are, of course, more metaphysical concerns to be addressed for people who believe in such things, relevant here is the matter of ensoulment; i.e. when (how? and from where?) does the soul come? And there have been many ways to answer that question throughout the history of the Church; the position that the soul is created at conception may be the most common opinion today, but it is far from universal dogma in the Christian Church (and never has been). This is a question that has been wrestled with by Christian philosophers and theologians for centuries.

What I think is dangerous is a kind of ham-fisted dogmatics that is achieved, not by thorough inquiry and consideration; but mere say-so, entirely without the aid of Divine Revelation as we have it through the history of God and His people as recorded in the holy texts of Scripture; and instead by sheer speculation.

-CryptoLutheran

You're always reasonable and kind even when i don't agree with you, I appreciate that. As to your point, like I just stated to Desk Trauma.... by the time a woman finds out she is pregnant there is already brain wave activity and most likely a heart beat. And, by that time, the DNA is fully written. So... when she learns she is pregnant, we have DNA, a heart beat and brain activity. That means that AT THAT POINT, what is in her is one of the highest forms of life on the planet. Taking into consideration the "before I formed you in the womb I knew you" God said to Jeremiah, then there is nothing that will change my mind. Abortion is murder.

 

[ouranopolis]

I see no way that a Christian could support abortion or the pro-choice movement.

Our ex-president who calls himself a Christian said that if his one of his daughters got pregnant he would not want to see her wreck her life by carrying the baby. Do those sound like the words of a Christian? Maybe he never heard of adoption?


M-Bob

Fully agree, Obama is a very very evil man. I genuinely believe that. Here in the UK the baby killing business is getting more and more extreme and bold. Sign of these last days. How any so called Christian supports murdering a tiny baby is beyond me. I do not believe they are Christian or saved. They make me sick. I don't mind being straight talking about this and it's one thing that I feel is paramount for Christians to act upon . They are the weakest in our society and they need protecting

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Why would they want the chance to suffer and possibly reject the Christian message thus being damned rather than having their conscious existence start in a perfect afterlife?

They were never given the choice. That choice was taken away from them by selfish uncaring people.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't care about US Law... I care about God's law.

From how I understand it, US Law is based mainly on God's Law. The Constitution and laws were compiled by Godfearing men who totally believed in God's Law and His standards. Paul said that we are to comply with the law of the land and to respect judges and the police, so that we can live a peaceable life. I read in the newspaper some years ago that a guy broke the law, ended up in court and told the judge that he didn't need to have the Court's penalty because the crime was now "under the Blood" [of Christ]. Understandably, the judge ignored that and sentenced him anyway. It will be interesting for a person who says that they don't care about U.S. Law, and that God's Law was more important, when he comes up before the judge on a criminal charge. I really don't think that the judge will take him very seriously.

 

[Cearbhall]

I see no way that a Christian could support abortion or the pro-choice movement.

The thing is, if you apply this logic to every issue of life, you're left with very few Christians, at least in the United States. Most everyone is "pro-life" in one way or another, but not across the board.