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Featured Can a Christian lose his/her salvation?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Quasar92, Jun 24, 2017.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Sorry, this is simply not true.
    Here are a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

    1 Samuel 16:14
    1 Samuel 31:4
    Ezekiel 18:24
    Hebrews 3:12-14
    Hebrews 4:11
    Hebrews 6:4-9
    Hebrews 10:26-30
    Hebrews 12:15
    1 Timothy 1:18-20
    1 Timothy 4:1-7
    Galatians 3:1-5
    2 Peter 2:20-22
    2 Peter 3:17
    Matthew 13:18-23
    1 Corinthians 10:12
    2 Thessalonians 2:3

    Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (in the sense of like how one would misplace one's car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

    Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

    And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
    • Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
    • Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
    • The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
      (James 5:19, 20)

    For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).


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    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  2. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Calvinists believe there is no free will in regards to accepting Christ. Non-Calvinistic Eternal Security Proponents believe there is no free will after salvation (because a believer is forever forced with the decision in being saved after coming to the faith). In other words, this is "forced salvation" which runs contrary to what "true love" is all about. For we know that "true love" exists when two people BOTH agree to love each other. If the other person forces the other person to love them, then it is not real.

    Forced Love:

    [​IMG]

    In other words, if you believe in "Eternal Security" or "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved) you believe God saves you and that there is nothing you could ever do that could jeopardize your standing with Him. That once you accept God, you are then forced into a relationship that you can't break out of. You are trapped. Your free will is no longer. You can't leave. Once you check in, you can't check out. God has forced His love upon you because of your one choice to believe in Him for your salvation.

    Such a notion sounds absolutely ridiculous. But this is what you must believe if your a proponent of "Eternal Security". I mean, have you ever watched one of those movies about a girl who had a crush on a guy, which quickly turned into a forceful or twisted relationship? You know, the movie where boy meets girl, but the boy loses interest, yet the girl doesn't and therefore she forces her love upon him. So things get pretty dark and twisted. This is exactly what proponents of "Eternal Security" have done with God. They have made God out to be this woman who had forced her love upon a man who didn't want her love anymore.

    In fact, do you remember the story of David and Bathsheba? David wanted to keep the forbidden love of another man's wife. So he forced a relationship of what he believed to be love by killing her husband (Uriah) so he could be with her in the way that he wanted (or loved). Veritably, there is no doubt in my mind that David might have even loved Bathsheba. However, it was not a love that was his. So David tried to force love in a way that was not natural or good (by permanently eliminating the will of another) (2 Samuel 11:1-27). For that is exactly what "Eternal Security" does. It sets up a loving relationship as if it was something that had to be forced. That once you are saved, you are always saved (no matter what you do or even if you change your mind). Such a notion goes against all logic of what we know about free will and true love.


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  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Sin is basically your choice to say you do not love God. Seeing we know believers can sin, we have to conclude we have free will still and that God is not forcing us into a love relationship or mind wiping us to be love slaves or anything silly like that. So seeing we have free will, we can turn away from God and go to an unsaved state again after living holy.

    I mean, have you ever read the verse in Ezekiel 18?

    It says,

    "But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die." (Ezekiel 18:24).

    Also, in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, when the son came back from living a life of sin (i.e. when he went prodigal), his father said that his son was dead and is now alive again two times. This is speaking in spiritual terms of course. The son was dead spiritually while he was living a life of sin.

    I mean, stop and think for a moment.
    Are not all babies saved by Christ's sacrifice?
    If you say yes, then what separates them from God when they grow up?
    It is their sin of course.
    Why does one think sin does not separate a man from God after they become a believer is not consistent thinking. Even in the Garden of Eden, we learn that just one sin was enough to separate man from God.

    The devil said to Eve, "Yea, ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).
    Yet, this lie is being bought hook line and sinker today.

    God does not force regenerate you to be a certain way.
    Jesus desired Jerusalem to be saved, but they would not allow Christ to do so.

    ""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37 NLT).

    We are told to CONTINUE in the grace of God.

    "Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God." (Acts 13:43).

    Why does Scripture tell me to continue in the grace of God if it is something that I am automatically going to just do as a part of some kind of "forced regeneration"?

    It doesn't make any sense.


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    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    A careful review of the study you have made to try proving there is no such thing as eternal security, will eliminate all OT listings as well as a large number of NT listings. In the case of the NT listings, because they lacked sufficent faith to support their belief, such as recorded in Heb.4:2, as well as those who were never born again Christians in the first place.


    Quasar92
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    God created mankind with "free will" so that he is capable of exhibiting "true love" towards God. For "true love" is always by choice and is never forced. In fact, to illustrate this point, here is an example from a comic book story line about an almost God like entity or villain called the "Beyonder" letting a super heroine named "Dazzler" free from his powerful spell of forced love.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    "Secret Wars 2:"
    Secret Wars II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    What is your take on free will of the believer?
    Does a believer have free will after they accept Christ?
    Or does God only regenerate those He knows will be faithful to Him?
    What would be the point in giving us commands within His Word and warnings if God knew were going to be faithful? It doesn't add up.

    If you were to skip back a chapter in Hebrews, it says this,

    "But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:13).

    Why tell me as a believer to not harden my heart by the deceitfulness of sin if such a thing were not possible?

    It says in verse 14,

    "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;." (Hebrews 3:14).

    In verse 14, it does not say, we are made partakers of Christ because God regenerated us and or elected us to be love slaves to His will to do good works. It says we are made partakers of Christ IF.... IF....IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

    Verse 12 says,

    "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." (Hebrews 3:12).

    How can I depart from the living God if such a thing were not possible?
    Again, it just seems like you are not wanting to see these kinds of verses.


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    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  7. Gabriel Anton

    Gabriel Anton Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18

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    Peace be with you.

    Your Salvation theory theology sounds great.

    The only problem lies with:

    God will judge you for your deeds whether good or bad.

    You will need to wait for death to occur to find out the validity of your Salvation theory theology.

    There is no need to judge yourself saved. God will judge for you after death.

    It is an automatic procedure we all go through.

    God bless you.
     
  8. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    That is exactly what the verses say.
     
  9. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    Yes, it is.
     
  10. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    Amen, I sure agree but how does that lead you to believe that we can discard everything Jesus said before His resurrection? All of it is just for the Jews because it is before the New Covenant came into effect!?!
     
  11. Karl.C

    Karl.C Member

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    In the NT "metanoeō" (repent) is used 34 times, according to Strong's lexicon its meaning is more than just a change of mind, it encompases having complete abhorrence for past actions. If so, one can't go "oops, I did it again..."
     
  12. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    Amen Karl. I only just posted a short blog on the meaning of repentance. If you are interested, it can be read at What does repent mean? | Christian Issues

    God bless,
    Mick
     
  13. Karl.C

    Karl.C Member

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    My dad tells me that back in the 1970s during the Billy Graham crusades people would be called to the front to be saved. Then for a while people would run around asking "are you saved?" Someone did a survey about a year later. Apparently they wanted to see how far church attendance had increased. The reality is church attendance had declined and still is...

    The OSAS crowd would say "well none of them were saved in the first place. The realists say "proves there is no love in the OSAS groups". Think about it!
     
  14. Karl.C

    Karl.C Member

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    I see it the other way around. Satan wants us to be complacent. The OSAS viewpoint leads to complacency. Complacently leads to "Oops, I did it again! No worries, I'm saved!" However see Ezekiel 18...
     
  15. ChristianIssues

    ChristianIssues Newbie

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    Heb. 12:14 tells us that "without holiness no one will see the Lord". Holiness is simply repenting if and whenever we sin. All we have to do is confess our sin (1 John 1:9) whenever the Spirit convicts us (John 16:8).

    Confessing sin is not difficult but, to receive forgiveness, our heart must be right. God sees our hearts and knows if we are truly repentant when we confess. If we are genuine then God will forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

    No one can say that God has made it hard for us to be saved. Jesus said that His yoke is easy and His burden light (Matt. 11:30).
     
  16. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    I can believe that. But being saved and attending "church" are not the same thing. Attending "church" does not save anyone.Neither does attending "church" prove a person is saved. There are many attended "church" who are tares. But the Church is not a building, or denomination, or a cooperate organization as some people believe Her to be. She is the Bride of Christ,His Body, bones of His bones, flesh of His flesh.
    Eph.5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
    30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    I will also say His Spirit is dwelling in each child of God.
     
  17. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Verse 24 does not change Jude 1:21 in the possibility that the Christian can fall from the love of God.

    Jude plainly shows the Christian has a role in his own salvation by keeping himself in the love of God. Jesus said 'if ye love Me keep my commands', (Jn 14:15) with Jesus equating love to keeping His commands. Therefore the Christian keeps himself in the love of God by keeping Christ's commands. If the Christian rebels and quits keeping Christ's commands, he becomes a disobedient law breaker who fell from the love of God.

    Verse 24 those that continue to keep Christ's law, that continues to walk in the light (1 John 1:7) they will not stumble and fall. Therefore it is by keeping Christ's word that Christ is able to keep the Christian from falling. Christ does not use some mysterious supernatural way separate and apart from the word that guarantees to keep the Christian from falling regardless if the Christian keeps Christ word or not.

    No one can be saved by the OT law, so that is not an issue.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2017
  18. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

    Not being condemned is conditional upon being in and remaining in Christ. There is condemnation outside of Christ.

    What did I supposedly add to the verse?
     
  19. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    it was posted "Indeed, works we are to do, AFTER we have become born again Christians. They have nothing whatever to do for us, in obtaining our salvation."

    To which you replied "Neither in obtaining or in keeping our salvation. Great point."

    Can anyone show an example under the NT gospel one who saved without obedient works in obeying God's commands, that is, saved while living in rebellion to God or one who remained saved while living in disobedient to God's commands?
     
  20. TheSeabass

    TheSeabass Well-Known Member

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    I won't take the large amount of time needed to address each verse you cite but in some of the verses cited, those that support OSAS ignore, and in some cases flat out attack the present tense of verbs. For example you cite John 6:35ff:

    35-And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36-But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37-All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    The verbs in red are all present tense denoting an ongoing sustained action. As long as one CONDITIONALLY CONTINUES to believe and come to Christ he will not be cast out. If one quits believing and coming to Christ hew ill be cast out. This is true in all the other verses you cited with the present tense.
     
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