Can a believer forfeit salvation?

[Yekcidmij]

Romans 11:28 In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. 11:30 Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience, 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now 23 receive mercy. 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all. 24
11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways!
11:34 For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor? 25
11:35 Or who has first given to God, 26
that God 27 needs to repay him? 28
11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen.

 

[Meshavrischika]

I don't think you can even choose to "undo salvation". Scripture says no man can tear us away from Him... I think no man includes me personally.

 

[BenAdam]

Last week I was a SFPC anomaly, now I'm the SFPC Police!

Next week


































I will be SFPC pirate!


and j - I agreed and supported you just a couple posts later!

But that you may know that the Son of Man has the [power of] authority and right on earth to forgive sins, He said to the paralyzed man, I say to you, arise, pick up your litter (stretcher), and go to your own house!​

Jesus the Christ​

I think I'm the official SFPC Pirate....

 

[enoch son]

Can a believer forfeit salvation?

For the record …

1. I do not believe that a Christian can “lose” their salvation like they can lose their car keys. Losing something is an involuntary act, an accident.​

2. Nor do I believe that a Christian can "sin away" their salvation. Christ atoned for all sins once and for all.​

But I do believe …

A person’s free will to choose their eternal fate remains in tact even after they become believers—IOW, God does not take away our right to choose our eventual destiny when we become believers. We do not become robots, cyborgs the instant we are saved. A Christian has every God-given right to choose to no longer believe, if they so wish.


Interesting example:

One of the best examples of this is Charles Templeton (1915-2001), a Canadian and colleague of Billy Graham in the 1940s, one of the most promising evangelists of the early postwar period and co-creator and initial leading voice of Youth With A Mission. Templeton became a believer in 1936 after experiencing a crisis of faith in a revival meeting, followed by a meteoric rise to become one of the world’s most gifted preachers, whose oratorical skills, some said, surpassed that of his partner Billy Graham’s. In 1948 he attended Princeton Theological Seminary and afterward began to question his faith. By 1957 his growing skepticism led him to forfeit/deny/abandon faith in Christ and he became an avowed and lifelong “agnostic” until his death in 2001. Templeton and Graham remained lifelong friends. In 1982 he wrote, “There is no feigning in [Graham]: he believes what he believes with an invincible innocence. He is the only mass evangelist I would trust."But by the end of his life, his admiration for Graham had waned. In 1995, Templeton published A Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith which set forth his arguments for agnosticism, while also depicting Graham as a fraud who didn't believe in his own crusades. In the latter part of the book, Templeton includes several quotes that have been described as "devastating" to Graham, setting up the case that the latter was simply caught up in good way to make a living. (Wikipedia profile and photo of Templeton HERE)​

Now, was Templeton saved, OSAS? Will I see him in heaven? His life until the early 1950s gives every evidence that he was once a believer. He gave stirring testimony to his conversion, preached to hundreds of thousands, brought many to Christ, created YWAM (which to this day is one of the leading evangelistic ministries to youth in the world), wrote books and articles extolling Christ, had his own religious television show on CBS, was endorsed as the leading Canadian voice for Christ by the United Churches of Canada, etc., etc. but later in his life, from 1957 until his death, was the leading agnostic voice in his country.

To say that Templeton really never was a Christian is question how any of us can "know" we are Christian? All the evidential “fruit” was there in Templeton’s life and ministry from his conversion through the mid-1950s. He believed he was a Christian? If he really wasn’t, how can I possibly know for sure that I really am a Christian? Where goes my "security"? How can you know for sure you are really a Christian? How can you know your pastor or your favorite celebrity televangelist is really saved? How can I know for sure you are really a Christian?

It gets complicated, doesn't it?

For me it is simple. Charles Templeton willfully forfeited his salvation, choosing to ignore the dictates of his spirit to embrace the questions in his mind. He did not “lose” his salvation, or “sin away” his salvation but, because God never took away his freewill, Templeton simply and willfully abandoned his faith in Christ and became reprobate concerning the faith. He rejected Christ and His gift after having enjoyed it for more than 20 years.

Hard to imagine a Christian turning their back on Christ, but instances are there in scripture (Judas, Demas, Alexander, Hymeneaus, Simon Magus, Diotrophes, Philetus) and in contemporary life.

In short, you don’t have to go to heaven if you don’t want to. God did not drag Charles Templeton kicking and screaming through the pearly gates, OSAS style.

~Jim

If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.​

there no free will thats a joke. If so then why was the lamb slian before the foundation of the world? Is that over your head? SALVATION IS OF THE LORD I see no where in that ver. does it say salvation is up to you. IS NOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WORTH ANYTHING. Shame on anybody who think it can be throw off.

 

[lismore]

there no free will thats a joke. If so then why was the lamb slian before the foundation of the world? Is that over your head? SALVATION IS OF THE LORD I see no where in that ver. does it say salvation is up to you. IS NOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WORTH ANYTHING. Shame on anybody who think it can be throw off.

Thats what I told Jim but he told me I was swallowing a gnat or something

Apparently we can overrule God's will with our will. Its God's will to start a good work in us and see it through to the end. I think that what God starts he will finish.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Can a believer forfeit salvation?

For the record …

1. I do not believe that a Christian can “lose” their salvation like they can lose their car keys. Losing something is an involuntary act, an accident.​

2. Nor do I believe that a Christian can "sin away" their salvation. Christ atoned for all sins once and for all.​

But I do believe …

A person’s free will to choose their eternal fate remains in tact even after they become believers—IOW, God does not take away our right to choose our eventual destiny when we become believers. We do not become robots, cyborgs the instant we are saved. A Christian has every God-given right to choose to no longer believe, if they so wish.


Interesting example:

One of the best examples of this is Charles Templeton (1915-2001), a Canadian and colleague of Billy Graham in the 1940s, one of the most promising evangelists of the early postwar period and co-creator and initial leading voice of Youth With A Mission. Templeton became a believer in 1936 after experiencing a crisis of faith in a revival meeting, followed by a meteoric rise to become one of the world’s most gifted preachers, whose oratorical skills, some said, surpassed that of his partner Billy Graham’s. In 1948 he attended Princeton Theological Seminary and afterward began to question his faith. By 1957 his growing skepticism led him to forfeit/deny/abandon faith in Christ and he became an avowed and lifelong “agnostic” until his death in 2001. Templeton and Graham remained lifelong friends. In 1982 he wrote, “There is no feigning in [Graham]: he believes what he believes with an invincible innocence. He is the only mass evangelist I would trust."But by the end of his life, his admiration for Graham had waned. In 1995, Templeton published A Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith which set forth his arguments for agnosticism, while also depicting Graham as a fraud who didn't believe in his own crusades. In the latter part of the book, Templeton includes several quotes that have been described as "devastating" to Graham, setting up the case that the latter was simply caught up in good way to make a living. (Wikipedia profile and photo of Templeton HERE)​

Now, was Templeton saved, OSAS? Will I see him in heaven? His life until the early 1950s gives every evidence that he was once a believer. He gave stirring testimony to his conversion, preached to hundreds of thousands, brought many to Christ, created YWAM (which to this day is one of the leading evangelistic ministries to youth in the world), wrote books and articles extolling Christ, had his own religious television show on CBS, was endorsed as the leading Canadian voice for Christ by the United Churches of Canada, etc., etc. but later in his life, from 1957 until his death, was the leading agnostic voice in his country.

To say that Templeton really never was a Christian is question how any of us can "know" we are Christian? All the evidential “fruit” was there in Templeton’s life and ministry from his conversion through the mid-1950s. He believed he was a Christian? If he really wasn’t, how can I possibly know for sure that I really am a Christian? Where goes my "security"? How can you know for sure you are really a Christian? How can you know your pastor or your favorite celebrity televangelist is really saved? How can I know for sure you are really a Christian?

It gets complicated, doesn't it?

For me it is simple. Charles Templeton willfully forfeited his salvation, choosing to ignore the dictates of his spirit to embrace the questions in his mind. He did not “lose” his salvation, or “sin away” his salvation but, because God never took away his freewill, Templeton simply and willfully abandoned his faith in Christ and became reprobate concerning the faith. He rejected Christ and His gift after having enjoyed it for more than 20 years.

Hard to imagine a Christian turning their back on Christ, but instances are there in scripture (Judas, Demas, Alexander, Hymeneaus, Simon Magus, Diotrophes, Philetus) and in contemporary life.

In short, you don’t have to go to heaven if you don’t want to. God did not drag Charles Templeton kicking and screaming through the pearly gates, OSAS style.

~Jim

If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.​

As usual...a great post and a great OP.

 

[Amaryllismayfly]

It's interesting the OP brought up Billy Graham. There is a youtube video going around where Billy Graham says Jesus is not the only way to get to heaven. I am still in shock and upset about it.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Again, I'm not looking for something that requires inference to support doctrine. I'm looking for something concrete, "If you do this (whatever this is), your will lose your salvation."

If I look for references on getting saved, I can find concrete evidence. Acts 2:21 "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved", Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house", Rom 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him", Rom 10:9 "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

...etc...etc...

Where are the corresponding plain-language warnings on losing salvation by any means?

Yes, please add scriptures.

What I am really trying to say that you do not “lose” your salvation like you “lose” your car keys. Losing things is accidentally, involuntary. What I am saying is that you can voluntarily “forfeit” (renounce, forsake, abandon) your salvation through a deliberate act of the will. This is called apostasy, becoming reprobate concerning the faith. Charles Templeton is one of the best public examples we have of this.

But I can name a dozen or so people I have known personally through the years who began a vibrant fruit-bearing life with the Lord, giving every evidence of true faith in Christ, but who, through a variety of bad decisions, eventually and deliberately turned their back on the truth and renounced Christ to pursue their own ambitions. A couple of them is now dead, never having returned to the faith. To say that they were “never” really saved is, IMO, a cop-out to the OSAS doctrine and makes me wonder, if we believe this, how we could then ever possibly know if anyone is really saved. Or worse, still, how could I ever really know I am saved? That sounds more like eternal INsecurity than eternal security to me.

~Jim

If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.​

Jim I noticed that the Lord seems to have revealed to you a few scriptures already about this.

If you continue...

I think one of the strongest arguments for need ing to remain in the grace of God to be saved is in the teaching of Jesus being the True Vine.

What do you guys think of those passages?

 

[CatholicFlame]

Thats what I told Jim but he told me I was swallowing a gnat or something

Apparently we can overrule God's will with our will. Its God's will to start a good work in us and see it through to the end. I think that what God starts he will finish.

Hey Lismore, I can see that you are looking at losing your salvation as something like having more power than God. I can totally see how that does not work for you since it leads you to think that is what it infers: that if we can reject Jesus after we have been given such a great gift, that makes us somehow able to overrule God.

Maybe it would help to look upon the Lord as having not just love for us, but also great respect. So much so that we will always have free will. I mean that is a great respect for us.

He desires for us to love Him because He is lovable, not because he has forced us to.

One would be sonship, the other is seems more like a dictatorship.

 

[NewSong]

Jim I always enjoy your threads. I examine myself and sometimes get in trouble but at least I am not stagnant. I also go before GOD more than any other place because your posts touch the reality of our lives. I just want you to know how grateful I am for the wonderful post and questions you pose. I am so grateful that GOD gives us a free will and we are not coerced into salvation or staying saved but the door does swing both ways. Thankfully and gratefully I do believe the way you do and believe we can forfeit our salvation. Your posts caused me to examine my heart over issues and I praise GOD for it because once again, I can come on here with a knowledge that this forum has fruit being produced and I sure appreciate your efforts and the work you put into it. I appreciate the willingness to stand firm.

I also appreciate that you allow the subject to be debated in your threads because I get to have an accurate picture of the pro's and con's and finally, the rest lays in my will as to what to do with the information, plus some I gather too! This is especially a good one for me at this time in my life. GOD BLESS you and all the posters who contributed.

 

[DiscipleWhomJesusLoves]

Maybe it would help to look upon the Lord as having not just love for us, but also great respect. So much so that we will always have free will. I mean that is a great respect for us.

No matter how much free will I exercise not to be my father's son, or mother's son, I'm still their son. The only way to change that is to be unborn.

 

[JimB]

No matter how much free will I exercise not to be my father's son, or mother's son, I'm still their son. The only way to change that is to be unborn.

Or disinherited as some self-willed adopted children are.

~Jim

If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.​

 

[NorrinRadd]

No matter how much free will I exercise not to be my father's son, or mother's son, I'm still their son. The only way to change that is to be unborn.

You mean like Adam?

He was the "son of God" (Luke 3:38)

He'd had the "breath of life" breathed into him (Gen. 2:7).

Believers are "children of God" (1 John 3:2), born of God (John 1:13, 1 John 5:1, and elsewhere), born of the Spirit (John 3), have had the Spirit breathed into us (John 20:22).

If it was possible for Adam to go from alive to dead, why not us?

 

[BenAdam]

You mean like Adam?

He was the "son of God" (Luke 3:38)

He'd had the "breath of life" breathed into him (Gen. 2:7).

Believers are "children of God" (1 John 3:2), born of God (John 1:13, 1 John 5:1, and elsewhere), born of the Spirit (John 3), have had the Spirit breathed into us (John 20:22).

If it was possible for Adam to go from alive to dead, why not us?

I think you are confusing the issue with facts.

 

[Alpine]

So you can fake Christianity, you can fake the fruit of the Spirit and nobody really knows for sure if anyone is really saved???? What the heck kind of religion is this???????? So not even the fruit that this person (or any of us) bears is an indicator that they are saved??? Then what is? I don't think that anyone can give up their salvation. I don't even agree with Jim on this. I guess I would be OSAS then. It doesn't make any sense that someone would be able to forfeit their salvation. What if they decided later that they wanted to be saved again? SHould Christ be crucified all over again and his sacrifice be made a mockery? Is that person just screwed then if they change their mind? Someone explain this to me please????

There are so many warnings in the new testament about wolves among the flock. How could we have wolves amongst us and many of us becoming decieved if they didn't seem holy?

I think it's totally possible.

 

[Meshavrischika]

There are so many warnings in the new testament about wolves among the flock. How could we have wolves amongst us and many of us becoming decieved if they didn't seem holy?

I think it's totally possible.

being decieved is totally different than being un-saved.

 

[enoch son]

Thats what I told Jim but he told me I was swallowing a gnat or something

Apparently we can overrule God's will with our will. Its God's will to start a good work in us and see it through to the end. I think that what God starts he will finish.

It seems that God fail in the salvation of his creation and his son die in vain. Without our help God lost control and man is now god of the world he lives in. I'M GOING TO GO PUK!

 

[Alpine]

being decieved is totally different than being un-saved.

Yes, but I am speaking towards the angle of the wolf, not the sheep.

 

[NewSong]

It seems that God fail in the salvation of his creation and his son die in vain. Without our help God lost control and man is now god of the world he lives in. I'M GOING TO GO PUK!

Need a bucket?

 

[JimB]

Bump