Can a believer forfeit salvation?

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merryheart

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we receive salvation when we believe in Jesus. What does it mean to believe in Jesus? What does it mean to stop believing in Jesus?

IMO belief is not an intellectual thing. It isn´t a doctrine such as trinity vs modalism - or any other such exercise.
 
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CatholicFlame

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Can a believer forfeit salvation?

For the record …

1. I do not believe that a Christian can “lose” their salvation like they can lose their car keys. Losing something is an involuntary act, an accident.
2. Nor do I believe that a Christian can "sin away" their salvation. Christ atoned for all sins once and for all.
But I do believe …

A person’s free will to choose their eternal fate remains in tact even after they become believers—IOW, God does not take away our right to choose our eventual destiny when we become believers. We do not become robots, cyborgs the instant we are saved. A Christian has every God-given right to choose to no longer believe, if they so wish.



Interesting example:
One of the best examples of this is Charles Templeton (1915-2001), a Canadian and colleague of Billy Graham in the 1940s, one of the most promising evangelists of the early postwar period and co-creator and initial leading voice of Youth With A Mission. Templeton became a believer in 1936 after experiencing a crisis of faith in a revival meeting, followed by a meteoric rise to become one of the world’s most gifted preachers, whose oratorical skills, some said, surpassed that of his partner Billy Graham’s. In 1948 he attended Princeton Theological Seminary and afterward began to question his faith. By 1957 his growing skepticism led him to forfeit/deny/abandon faith in Christ and he became an avowed and lifelong “agnostic” until his death in 2001. Templeton and Graham remained lifelong friends. In 1982 he wrote, “There is no feigning in [Graham]: he believes what he believes with an invincible innocence. He is the only mass evangelist I would trust."But by the end of his life, his admiration for Graham had waned. In 1995, Templeton published A Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith which set forth his arguments for agnosticism, while also depicting Graham as a fraud who didn't believe in his own crusades. In the latter part of the book, Templeton includes several quotes that have been described as "devastating" to Graham, setting up the case that the latter was simply caught up in good way to make a living. (Wikipedia profile and photo of Templeton HERE)
Now, was Templeton saved, OSAS? Will I see him in heaven? His life until the early 1950s gives every evidence that he was once a believer. He gave stirring testimony to his conversion, preached to hundreds of thousands, brought many to Christ, created YWAM (which to this day is one of the leading evangelistic ministries to youth in the world), wrote books and articles extolling Christ, had his own religious television show on CBS, was endorsed as the leading Canadian voice for Christ by the United Churches of Canada, etc., etc. but later in his life, from 1957 until his death, was the leading agnostic voice in his country.

To say that Templeton really never was a Christian is question how any of us can "know" we are Christian? All the evidential “fruit” was there in Templeton’s life and ministry from his conversion through the mid-1950s. He believed he was a Christian? If he really wasn’t, how can I possibly know for sure that I really am a Christian? Where goes my "security"? How can you know for sure you are really a Christian? How can you know your pastor or your favorite celebrity televangelist is really saved? How can I know for sure you are really a Christian?

It gets complicated, doesn't it?

For me it is simple. Charles Templeton willfully forfeited his salvation, choosing to ignore the dictates of his spirit to embrace the questions in his mind. He did not “lose” his salvation, or “sin away” his salvation but, because God never took away his freewill, Templeton simply and willfully abandoned his faith in Christ and became reprobate concerning the faith. He rejected Christ and His gift after having enjoyed it for more than 20 years.

Hard to imagine a Christian turning their back on Christ, but instances are there in scripture (Judas, Demas, Alexander, Hymeneaus, Simon Magus, Diotrophes, Philetus) and in contemporary life.

In short, you don’t have to go to heaven if you don’t want to. God did not drag Charles Templeton kicking and screaming through the pearly gates, OSAS style.

~Jim




If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.

Jim you really are saying that he was saved and that he lost his salvation here.

Ther eare many many scriptures that point ot a warning of believers not to turn away from the Lord. Jesus gives the warnings and so does Paul and the other Apostles.

So yes, and this story is even more evidence of it for me, yes we can turn away from teh Lord after we receive the gift of savlation. After all, we do not become robots. We might accept the word but later turn away because of some reason.

If you want to see the scriptures about warning us not to turn away , I could help you with this.
 
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Faulty

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The Bible spends a lot of time explaining salvation. It described what it is, steps of how to obtain it, what to expect after we are saved, and so forth.

So how come when it comes to the topic of the loss of salvation we need to infer it from passages that may or may not be supporting that doctrine. Why wouldn't God give us steps that need to be followed to back out of salvation, at least as a warning? Why don't the Bible describe exactly at what point salvation is lost, willfully or not?

I've known people who have been saved, then lost, then saved, then lost, and so on. I've asked them how they know they were now unsaved and the answer was usually a variation of I did something bad and I don't feel saved anymore. What a horrible way to live.
 
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CatholicFlame

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The Bible spends a lot of time explaining salvation. It described what it is, steps of how to obtain it, what to expect after we are saved, and so forth.

So how come when it comes to the topic of the loss of salvation we need to infer it from passages that may or may not be supporting that doctrine. Why wouldn't God give us steps that need to be followed to back out of salvation, at least as a warning? Why don't the Bible describe exactly at what point salvation is lost, willfully or not?

I've known people who have been saved, then lost, then saved, then lost, and so on. I've asked them how they know they were now unsaved and the answer was usually a variation of I did something bad and I don't feel saved anymore. What a horrible way to live.

I am not sure what you are asking Faulty. Do you mean that you are asking for some biblical description of a person losing salvation?
 
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~RENEE~

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Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
 
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Faulty

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I am not sure what you are asking Faulty. Do you mean that you are asking for some biblical description of a person losing salvation?

In a nutshell, yes. I want to see it described in plain language. I want to see something that says if I were to do this, that, and the other, I will lose my salvation because I don't believe its possible, not even of my own accord.
 
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CatholicFlame

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what do you think of this passage from the end times discourse of Jesus (Beginning in the late chapters of Matthew 24-25):

I think that all four parables from there tell the same story 4 times.

Faithful and Unfaithful Servants

Who are faithful and wise servants? Who are the ones the master will put in charge of giving the other servants their food supplies at the proper time? Servants are fortunate if their master comes and finds them doing their job. You may be sure that a servant who is always faithful will be put in charge of everything the master owns. But suppose one of the servants thinks that the master won't return until late. Suppose that evil servant starts beating the other servants and eats and drinks with people who are drunk. If that happens, the master will surely come on a day and at a time when the servant least expects him. That servant will then be punished and thrown out with the ones who only pretended to serve their master. There they will cry and grit their teeth in pain.

Mt 24: 45-51

Who is who, and who is Jesus talking to?
 
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nephilimiyr

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Seeing that I missed most of this discussion I'll be short and to the point. I do believe people can and do reject Christ after having been born again to the point that they wont be saved. I however don't believe this happends as often as most people think. Alot of us go through rebellious stages and fall back deep into sin after having been born again, but this is not rejection. Rejection is a very specific thing.
 
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Faulty

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what do you think of this passage from the end times discourse of Jesus (Beginning in the late chapters of Matthew 24-25):

I think that all four parables from there tell the same story 4 times.

Faithful and Unfaithful Servants

Who are faithful and wise servants? Who are the ones the master will put in charge of giving the other servants their food supplies at the proper time? Servants are fortunate if their master comes and finds them doing their job. You may be sure that a servant who is always faithful will be put in charge of everything the master owns. But suppose one of the servants thinks that the master won't return until late. Suppose that evil servant starts beating the other servants and eats and drinks with people who are drunk. If that happens, the master will surely come on a day and at a time when the servant least expects him. That servant will then be punished and thrown out with the ones who only pretended to serve their master. There they will cry and grit their teeth in pain.

Mt 24: 45-51

Who is who, and who is Jesus talking to?

Again, I'm not looking for something that requires inference to support doctrine. I'm looking for something concrete, "If you do this (whatever this is), your will lose your salvation."

If I look for references on getting saved, I can find concrete evidence. Acts 2:21 "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved", Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house", Rom 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him", Rom 10:9 "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

...etc...etc...

Where are the corresponding plain-language warnings on losing salvation by any means?
 
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Again, I'm not looking for something that requires inference to support doctrine. I'm looking for something concrete, "If you do this (whatever this is), your will lose your salvation."

If I look for references on getting saved, I can find concrete evidence. Acts 2:21 "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved", Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house", Rom 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him", Rom 10:9 "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

...etc...etc...

Where are the corresponding plain-language warnings on losing salvation by any means?
Good point.

It amuses me that believers will go for difficult / controversial passages to support OSNAS, and forget/ignore the simple clear-cut ones that support OSAS.

That's why I've started a thread, OSAS -- Difficult passages explained.
 
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JimB

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Jim you really are saying that he was saved and that he lost his salvation here.

Ther eare many many scriptures that point ot a warning of believers not to turn away from the Lord. Jesus gives the warnings and so does Paul and the other Apostles.

So yes, and this story is even more evidence of it for me, yes we can turn away from teh Lord after we receive the gift of savlation. After all, we do not become robots. We might accept the word but later turn away because of some reason.

If you want to see the scriptures about warning us not to turn away , I could help you with this.

Yes, please add scriptures.

What I am really trying to say that you do not “lose” your salvation like you “lose” your car keys. Losing things is accidentally, involuntary. What I am saying is that you can voluntarily “forfeit” (renounce, forsake, abandon) your salvation through a deliberate act of the will. This is called apostasy, becoming reprobate concerning the faith. Charles Templeton is one of the best public examples we have of this.

But I can name a dozen or so people I have known personally through the years who began a vibrant fruit-bearing life with the Lord, giving every evidence of true faith in Christ, but who, through a variety of bad decisions, eventually and deliberately turned their back on the truth and renounced Christ to pursue their own ambitions. A couple of them is now dead, never having returned to the faith. To say that they were “never” really saved is, IMO, a cop-out to the OSAS doctrine and makes me wonder, if we believe this, how we could then ever possibly know if anyone is really saved. Or worse, still, how could I ever really know I am saved? That sounds more like eternal INsecurity than eternal security to me.

~Jim


If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.

 
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JimB

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Good point.

It amuses me that believers will go for difficult / controversial passages to support OSNAS, and forget/ignore the simple clear-cut ones that support OSAS.

That's why I've started a thread, OSAS -- Difficult passages explained.

Right back atcha, DW. We wonder the same thing.

~Jim


If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.

 
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JimB

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In a nutshell, yes. I want to see it described in plain language. I want to see something that says if I were to do this, that, and the other, I will lose my salvation because I don't believe its possible, not even of my own accord.

The problem with this, of course, is if you accept another’s interpretation of a passage. That’s the problem with “proving” things to people who are committed to a particular premise, worldview—the interpret everything from that premise. If you are convinced of OSAS, whatever scriptural evidence to the contrary will be reinterpreted to fit your model. And, yes, it works both ways.

Right now, I can “prove” nothing to someone committed to a particular frame of reference. We can only hope to toss out scripture and logic to combat what we feel is error and hope that in time ayou (or I), with the help of the Spirit of truth, will one day say, “Aha!”

~Jim


If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.

 
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NorrinRadd

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...

There is a verse in the Bible that states something along the lines of no man can pull you from God's hand. (I'm at work and I don't have a way to look it up at the moment) There is a tendency of people to insert language into that verse to allow "no man" to not mean the individual involved ...

It is equally wrong to rewrite the passage to say that He will not permit us to "jump out" of His hand.
 
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JimB

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Christianity is not a prison that once you enter you can never leave again. It is a place only for those who want to be here. Christians have as much right to change their minds as sinners do. Our freewill remains ... even after we are saved.

~Jim


If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.

 
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Yekcidmij

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I think that those who are truly regenerate will never lose faith completely:



Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, 29 but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings. 8:27 And he 30 who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit 31 intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God’s will. 8:28 And we know that all things work together 32 for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose, 8:29 because those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son 33 would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 34 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.
8:31 What then shall we say about these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 8:32 Indeed, he who 35 did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all – how will he not also, along with him, freely give us all things? 8:33 Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? 36 It is God who justifies. 8:34 Who is the one who will condemn? Christ 37 is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us. 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will trouble, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 38 8:36 As it is written, “For your sake we encounter death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 39 8:37 No, in all these things we have complete victory 40 through him 41 who loved us! 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, 42 nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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JimB

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Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11

~Jim


If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.

 
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NorrinRadd

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Again, I'm not looking for something that requires inference to support doctrine. I'm looking for something concrete, "If you do this (whatever this is), your will lose your salvation."

If I look for references on getting saved, I can find concrete evidence. Acts 2:21 "whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved", Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house", Rom 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him", Rom 10:9 "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved"

...etc...etc...

Where are the corresponding plain-language warnings on losing salvation by any means?

Well, for one thing Matt. 10:33 (following as it does on the heels of 10:32) seems to be a pretty direct way of "reversing" Rom. 10:9-10.

Since in context Rom. 10:9-10 also includes parallels to Acts 2:21 and the first part of Acts 16:31, I'd say "denial" also undoes them.

In terms of the importance of doctrine, several of those verses definitely relate to the deity of Christ; a willful and knowing refusal to accept Jesus as YHWH disqualifies from salvation.
 
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