Can a believer forfeit salvation?

[JimB]

Can a believer forfeit salvation?

For the record …

1. I do not believe that a Christian can “lose” their salvation like they can lose their car keys. Losing something is an involuntary act, an accident.​

2. Nor do I believe that a Christian can "sin away" their salvation. Christ atoned for all sins once and for all.​

But I do believe …

A person’s free will to choose their eternal fate remains in tact even after they become believers—IOW, God does not take away our right to choose our eventual destiny when we become believers. We do not become robots, cyborgs the instant we are saved. A Christian has every God-given right to choose to no longer believe, if they so wish.


Interesting example:

One of the best examples of this is Charles Templeton (1915-2001), a Canadian and colleague of Billy Graham in the 1940s, one of the most promising evangelists of the early postwar period and co-creator and initial leading voice of Youth With A Mission. Templeton became a believer in 1936 after experiencing a crisis of faith in a revival meeting, followed by a meteoric rise to become one of the world’s most gifted preachers, whose oratorical skills, some said, surpassed that of his partner Billy Graham’s. In 1948 he attended Princeton Theological Seminary and afterward began to question his faith. By 1957 his growing skepticism led him to forfeit/deny/abandon faith in Christ and he became an avowed and lifelong “agnostic” until his death in 2001. Templeton and Graham remained lifelong friends. In 1982 he wrote, “There is no feigning in [Graham]: he believes what he believes with an invincible innocence. He is the only mass evangelist I would trust."But by the end of his life, his admiration for Graham had waned. In 1995, Templeton published A Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith which set forth his arguments for agnosticism, while also depicting Graham as a fraud who didn't believe in his own crusades. In the latter part of the book, Templeton includes several quotes that have been described as "devastating" to Graham, setting up the case that the latter was simply caught up in good way to make a living. (Wikipedia profile and photo of Templeton HERE)​

Now, was Templeton saved, OSAS? Will I see him in heaven? His life until the early 1950s gives every evidence that he was once a believer. He gave stirring testimony to his conversion, preached to hundreds of thousands, brought many to Christ, created YWAM (which to this day is one of the leading evangelistic ministries to youth in the world), wrote books and articles extolling Christ, had his own religious television show on CBS, was endorsed as the leading Canadian voice for Christ by the United Churches of Canada, etc., etc. but later in his life, from 1957 until his death, was the leading agnostic voice in his country.

To say that Templeton really never was a Christian is question how any of us can "know" we are Christian? All the evidential “fruit” was there in Templeton’s life and ministry from his conversion through the mid-1950s. He believed he was a Christian? If he really wasn’t, how can I possibly know for sure that I really am a Christian? Where goes my "security"? How can you know for sure you are really a Christian? How can you know your pastor or your favorite celebrity televangelist is really saved? How can I know for sure you are really a Christian?

It gets complicated, doesn't it?

For me it is simple. Charles Templeton willfully forfeited his salvation, choosing to ignore the dictates of his spirit to embrace the questions in his mind. He did not “lose” his salvation, or “sin away” his salvation but, because God never took away his freewill, Templeton simply and willfully abandoned his faith in Christ and became reprobate concerning the faith. He rejected Christ and His gift after having enjoyed it for more than 20 years.

Hard to imagine a Christian turning their back on Christ, but instances are there in scripture (Judas, Demas, Alexander, Hymeneaus, Simon Magus, Diotrophes, Philetus) and in contemporary life.

In short, you don’t have to go to heaven if you don’t want to. God did not drag Charles Templeton kicking and screaming through the pearly gates, OSAS style.

~Jim

If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.​

 

[BenAdam]

Interesting Jim. I tend to agree with you. However sometimes we may have faux belief. IOW, mentally acknowledging something as true, but it never really getting into one's heart.

What about people like William Branham though? Arguably a Christian, yet according to some accounts he became a heretic. Can the things we choose to believe beyond orthodoxy cause a "laying down" of salvation even thoug there is still some belief?

 

[jeolmstead]

Personally, I do not believe he was ever born again.

This is the problem the western style of evangelism:

“pray this prayer after me…….I now pronounced you saved”

In some circles salvation is strictly an intellectual experience. Nothing ever happens spiritually, nor is it expected. (Empty hands lay on empty heads.)

It’s scary to think that even one person could be so deceived, yet, it appears that there are whole groups who fall under this category. I believe these are those who Jesus will say, “Depart from me, I never knew you”

I do not believe that one can be un-born again. But I do believe there have been many spiritual miscarriages.


John O.

 

[JimB]

Thanx, John.

Here’s my problem with that position and a question that arises: How then can any of us know another is saved if not from their fruit? All the fruit was there for Templeton.

One of the key phrases of OSAS is “security of the believer” but I find no security in saying a person like Templeton was “never” saved. How then can I know you are saved or you have any assurance that I am saved? How can anyone be certain their pastor is saved? In fact, how can I really be sure I am saved? Saying a reprobate who turns their back on Christ was “never” saved may support a OSAS doctrine but it provides little “security.” IMO.

~Jim

If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.​

 

[BenAdam]

Thanx, John.

Here’s my problem with that position and a question that arises: How then can any of us know another is saved if not from their fruit? All the fruit was there for Templeton.

One of the key phrases of OSAS is “security of the believer” but I find no security in saying a person like Templeton was “never” saved. How then can I know you are saved or you have any assurance that I am saved? How can anyone be certain their pastor is saved? In fact, how can I really be sure I am saved? Saying a reprobate who turns their back on Christ was “never” saved may support a OSAS doctrine but it provides little “security.” IMO.

~Jim

If your absence doesn’t make a difference, your presence won’t either.​

Jim,

Jesus said by this all men will know you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. There are plenty of people that have a semblance of the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Br0kenSunshyne]

So you can fake Christianity, you can fake the fruit of the Spirit and nobody really knows for sure if anyone is really saved???? What the heck kind of religion is this???????? So not even the fruit that this person (or any of us) bears is an indicator that they are saved??? Then what is? I don't think that anyone can give up their salvation. I don't even agree with Jim on this. I guess I would be OSAS then. It doesn't make any sense that someone would be able to forfeit their salvation. What if they decided later that they wanted to be saved again? SHould Christ be crucified all over again and his sacrifice be made a mockery? Is that person just screwed then if they change their mind? Someone explain this to me please????

 

[BenAdam]

So you can fake Christianity, you can fake the fruit of the Spirit and nobody really knows for sure if anyone is really saved???? What the heck kind of religion is this????????

You can fake anything. Only a God can know a man's heart.

 

[ralangley]

Jim, I agree with you.

We don't lose our salvation, but we can choose to reject it. How do we know if we're Christian? I think Jesus said it best, "Abide in me, and I'll abide in you." We need to be in an ongoing relationship with Christ. We don't have "off" days when we can stray. We're married in a sense, and need to be committed to the relationship. If we sin, we need to confess and repent. If we grow disinterested and bored, we need to decide to go deeper into our faith. I think it is immensely easy to lose our passion, our zeal for Jesus - just as it is to lose our desire for our spouses. But we need to tolerate periods of disenchantment, and through an act of volition, stand strong despite the currents that long to sweep us away. If we can do this, if we can remember who we are in Christ and continuously invite him into deeper parts of ourselves, then we can safely say we are saved.

 

[Trish1947]

The only place in the Bible that talks about a possiblity of being turned away by Jesus Christ is where He said "If you deny me, I will deny you." Sins of the flesh pose problems for the flesh, and can affect our fellowship with God, but I don't believe it affects our relationship to Him as a son or daughter through the new birth. To me being born again spiritually wasn't a work we did in the first place. I believe God has disobediant sons and daughters and obediant ones. But they are both sons and daughters through the relationship. Why would a persons Spirit be subject to judgement, for sins of the flesh? Wouldn't judgement of the flesh be sufficient? I believe that Paul knew the same thing when dealing with the sins that was happening in the church. He proposed that the man be turned over to Satan for the distruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved. Saying that by their fruit we would know them, is the only way we would recognize another Christian..what about Christians that haven't produced any fruit? Then we wouldn't be able to recognize them.

 

[Tamara224]

So you can fake Christianity, you can fake the fruit of the Spirit and nobody really knows for sure if anyone is really saved???? What the heck kind of religion is this???????? So not even the fruit that this person (or any of us) bears is an indicator that they are saved??? Then what is? I don't think that anyone can give up their salvation. I don't even agree with Jim on this. I guess I would be OSAS then. It doesn't make any sense that someone would be able to forfeit their salvation. What if they decided later that they wanted to be saved again? SHould Christ be crucified all over again and his sacrifice be made a mockery? Is that person just screwed then if they change their mind? Someone explain this to me please????

You can fake anything. Only a God can know a man's heart.

It can be faked... but IMO, it's a lot easier said than done. Only the most consummate liar is going to say all the right things all the time and as we all know "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."

I noticed something about those people Jesus was talking about whom he never knew:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Amazingly enough, they could fake miracles, prophecies and even driving out demons. But there's no indication that they faked the really important stuff: Loving God and Loving their neighbors.

I've noticed that people can't really fake the fruits of the spirit - at least, not for long and not consistently.

They can pretend to love you, but in a heated moment they'll reveal their hearts. They lack patience, joy, peace, faithfulness, kindness, goodness, etc.

Heck, true followers of Christ lack these things often enough... but, IMO, a true disciple grows in these things. If you meet someone who says s/he's been a Christian for 40 years and has performed miracles, etc, but isn't kind, isn't patient, doesn't love, doesn't forgive etc, then that's a pretty good indication, IMO, that they're faking it.

But like Ben said... only God really knows their heart.

 

[Br0kenSunshyne]

So that doesn't answer my question of what is the point of this religion called Christianity if nobody can REALLY be sure that anyone is REALLY saved? I know that everything can be faked. That was more of a sarcastic question with a little bit of redhead attitude. Thanks for answering at least one of the questions though. But it wasn't the question I was looking for an answer for. My bad for the miscommunication.

 

[BenAdam]

It can be faked... but IMO, it's a lot easier said than done. Only the most consummate liar is going to say all the right things all the time and as we all know "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."

I just can't resist saying this...

You mean a lawyer right?

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Interesting Jim. I tend to agree with you. However sometimes we may have faux belief. IOW, mentally acknowledging something as true, but it never really getting into one's heart.

What about people like William Branham though? Arguably a Christian, yet according to some accounts he became a heretic. Can the things we choose to believe beyond orthodoxy cause a "laying down" of salvation even thoug there is still some belief?

Do you mean like bowing down and worshipping a statue of Mickey Mouse just as long as a person believes in something?

 

[Tamara224]

I just can't resist saying this...

You mean a lawyer right?

 

[BenAdam]

Do you mean like bowing down and worshipping a statue of Mickey Mouse just as long as a person believes in something?

No. But at what point does heresy like say, the nature of Jesus, result in the loss of salvation? Do I have to believe all the time that He is fully God, and fully man? Can I waffle? Can I be agnostic about it? Do I have to be a full Trinitarian or can I be a modalist?

 

[hislegacy]

{Side note - not off topic} I was reminded this morning of what a friend of mine told me once.

It seems the same topics get rehashed over and over by the same people.

So I searched the forum for Salvation -

Look what we've already discussed through j.

Can we forfeit our salvation? 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )
Jim M

Can a believer FORFEIT his/her salvation? 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )
Jim M


I'm not saying anything other than providing references to know where the OP is coming from.

But that you may know that the Son of Man has the [power of] authority and right on earth to forgive sins, He said to the paralyzed man, I say to you, arise, pick up your litter (stretcher), and go to your own house!​

Jesus the Christ​

 

[BenAdam]

{Side note - not off topic} I was reminded this morning of what a friend of mine told me once.

It seems the same topics get rehashed over and over by the same people.

So I searched the forum for Salvation -

Look what we've already discussed through j.

Can we forfeit our salvation? 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )
Jim M

Can a believer FORFEIT his/her salvation? 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )
Jim M


I'm not saying anything other than providing references to know where the OP is coming from.

But that you may know that the Son of Man has the [power of] authority and right on earth to forgive sins, He said to the paralyzed man, I say to you, arise, pick up your litter (stretcher), and go to your own house!​

Jesus the Christ​

Brother B,

Correct me if I am wrong, but I felt your post was somewhat mean spirited. Are you trying to find fault with the OP because he posted about this before? I think the topic is interesting. I have valid questions, and maybe so does Jim that were not sufficient addressed in the other thread.

 

[Tamara224]

So that doesn't answer my question of what is the point of this religion called Christianity if nobody can REALLY be sure that anyone is REALLY saved? I know that everything can be faked. That was more of a sarcastic question with a little bit of redhead attitude. Thanks for answering at least one of the questions though. But it wasn't the question I was looking for an answer for. My bad for the miscommunication.

I don't agree that nobody can ever be sure that anybody else is saved. Like I said, it can be faked... but not easily.

Besides, we have the Holy Spirit to testify to our spirits about these things. He tells and assures us that we are saved and he tells us that others are too.

I've had experiences where I knew a person was born again before she even opened her mouth and spoke to me. If the Holy Spirit is within both people, the Holy Spirit knows, right?

There's a certain amount of fear in relying on the Holy Spirit for these things. Or, perhaps fear isn't right... it should be "caution" ... because anyone can say that the Holy Spirit told them anything. But we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bathwater... the Holy Spirit does speak to us, He does confirm things for us. If someone claims to be a Christian, the Holy Spirit can confirm or deny that to us.

The point is to beware of false teachers and false prophets... know they are out there, don't put your trust in humans, because humans can fake it. Put your trust in God and His Holy Spirit to tell you the truth. But if we are too skeptical, we do ourselves a disservice as well.

 

[ANM29]

Nope, you can't forfeit something that is not yours anyway. It ALL belongs to God....Everything on earth and outside of earth.

I believe all people will be saved in the sense that they ALL will eventually be with God...Hell is not 'everlasting" as many have been told to believe ( God will clear that big one up ), but it is only temporary......and even hell will give up those souls at some point. (That word everlasting, eternal, originally in the Greek does not mean eternal at all, nor did Jesus, Paul, or any other early Christians preach eternal damnation, but eternal salvation )

So,no, there is no such thing as forfeiting your salvation when you were created to fellowship with God....You have no say so in the matter...

 

[Faulty]

I don't believe Templeton was ever saved because it appears that he only accepted God in his intellect. I've read a lot on him, including some of his own quotes in interviews and his son has a website where he talks about his dad and his turning away from the faith.

There is a verse in the Bible that states something along the lines of no man can pull you from God's hand. (I'm at work and I don't have a way to look it up at the moment) There is a tendency of people to insert language into that verse to allow "no man" to not mean the individual involved, I personally believe no man simply means no man. We don't have the power to revoke our own salvation.