Calvinist Logic

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Salvation as a Gift: An Arminian Attempts to Discredit Calvinism
c-logic.jpg


Here is my response to a meme I came across today which attempts to critique the Calvinist who says an Arminian's choice of following Jesus can be grounds for boasting before God.

-----

Salvation is a gift, in its entirety. Jesus provides EVERYTHING we need for salvation, including a new heart to believe (Deut 29:4, 30:6; Ezek 36:26; Eph 2:8). Your meme presumes that the new heart to believe is not part of God's gift to us but that faith is something that can naturally spring from our unregenerated human nature, apart from grace, apart from God's gift. Your meme wrongly assumes that the captives do not need liberating from their love of darkness, hatred of the light and unwillingness to come into the light (John 3:19; 1 Cor 2:14) ... since their wills are already good. That this Spirit wrought change of heart is not part of God's grace but that the unhardening of our own heart is something we are naturally willing and able to do on our own. But just like a seed needs rain from heaven to grow so the seed of the gospel needs the Holy Spirit to be germinated. 'No one says Jesus is Lord apart from the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3).

Likewise Jesus declared, "the Spirit quickens, the flesh counts for nothing... that is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me grants it." John 6:63. 65

Yet your position forces you to believe that a person can come to faith in Christ even if the Father DOES NOT grant it, or willing to come even if the Spirit DOES NOT quicken, and so your position by default presumes that the flesh DOES indeed count for SOMETHING, contrary to the bible.

So it appears you have to ascribe your repenting and believing (at least partly) to your own wisdom, humility, sound judgment or good sense and not to Christ ALONE. But the Bible says it is "because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God...therefore let him who boasts, boast in the Lord." (1 Cor 1:30-31) ... Your meme assumes wrongly that a person is morally capable to exercise faith apart from any grace when the entire Bible testifies otherwise.

In fact, if a man needs any kind of grace to come to Christ then your meme disqualifies itself from putting forth any meaningful argument.

Through Paul the Spirit says, "even when we were dead in our trespasses, [God] quickened us together with Christ — by grace you have been saved—" Eph 2:5

Grace includes the quickening from death ... to say that we believe prior to grace is to turn the gospel on its head.. it is by grace though faith. No faith without grace, no faith without quickening. So your Christmas gift meme forgot to include one of the most crucial gifts - a new heart.

Logic, you say? This is not derived from human logic but God's own word. But it is unaided human logic to declare that man's will prior to salvation is not in bondage to sin, or captive to his lusts, and that some are willing to come to Christ apart from grace.

Mon, 07/03/2017 - 16:46 -- john_hendryx
 

amariselle

Jesus Never Fails
Sep 28, 2004
6,648
4,194
The Great Northern Wilderness
✟60,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
There sure are a lot of Calvinist related posts lately.

I have a question, if we're all so deeply in "bondage" to sin and "captive" to lusts that not one of us is able or willing to come to Christ, why did He say this?:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." - Matthew 11:28-30

Why did He teach and preach publically to multitudes and sometimes one on one (the Samaritan woman at the well).?

Was He just taking to Himself? Why would He waste His time teaching such truth, warning, admonishing, instructing and encouraging if absolutely NO ONE has free will and ability to respond and turn to Him in faith?

I wish people would understand. Jesus IS the Grace (unmerited favour) of God. God so loved the world, even though we didn't deserve it, that He sent His only begotten Son. We did nothing to merit or earn His coming, His death on the cross for our sins or His promise to return one day for us. ALL of that is GRACE.

God HAS reached out to save us, He has offered us the ONLY Way to salvation, Jesus. We are therefore accountable if we choose to reject His Son.

And as for faith?

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" - Romans 10:8-15
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
There sure are a lot of Calvinist related posts lately.

I have a question, if we're all so deeply in "bondage" to sin and "captive" to lusts that not one of us is able or willing to come to Christ, why did He say this?:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." - Matthew 11:28-30

Why did He teach and preach publically to multitudes and sometimes one on one (the Samaritan woman at the well).?

Was He just taking to Himself? Why would He waste His time teaching such truth, warning, admonishing, instructing and encouraging if absolutely NO ONE has free will and ability to respond and turn to Him in faith?

I wish people would understand. Jesus IS the Grace (unmerited favour) of God. God so loved the world, even though we didn't deserve it, that He sent His only begotten Son. We did nothing to merit or earn His coming, His death on the cross for our sins or His promise to return one day for us. ALL of that is GRACE.

God HAS reached out to save us, He has offered us the ONLY Way to salvation, Jesus. We are therefore accountable if we choose to reject His Son.

And as for faith?

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" - Romans 10:8-15
Thanks for your post. Its a bit long. And its late. I will reply to all of yours questions here tomorrow.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,517
6,400
Midwest
✟79,408.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Was He just taking to Himself? Why would He waste His time teaching such truth, warning, admonishing, instructing and encouraging if absolutely NO ONE has free will and ability to respond and turn to Him in faith?

My faith wasn't given to me by Satan. I certainly didn't see it in my family of origin or relatives. And I had very few friends because we didn't stay in one place for very long. The only way I could have faith was for God to give it to me.

John 10
4 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not.

John 8
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

ladodgers6 explains it all better than I can.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,517
6,400
Midwest
✟79,408.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
1 Corinthians 3 (KJV)
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

I am a Christian because the Spirit quickened me. Calvin didn't quicken me when I was dead in sins.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Innerfire89
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
They were all kicked out of the Calvinist and the Junk Drawer forum :)
LLOOLL....awe the evil Calvinist. Way to contribute to the discussion. Just another brave troll, comes out to take a jab! And nothing else!
 
  • Haha
Reactions: gordonhooker
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

gordonhooker

Franciscan tssf
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2012
1,883
1,045
Wellington Point, QLD
Visit site
✟274,602.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
LLOOLL....awe the evil Calvinist. Way to contribute to the discussion. Just another brave troll, comes out to take a jab! And nothing else!

As only a typical Calvinist would and could reply :)
 
Upvote 0

Phantasman

Newbie
May 12, 2012
4,953
226
Tennessee
✟34,626.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I see John Calvin as someone who saw the (spiritual) defects in (catholic) Orthodoxy. He took Martin Luther's separation from Catholicism even steps further, and believed the individual is responsible for acquiring spiritual knowledge through the their own seeking of truth (in scripture) rather than following creeds and religions made up of men.

I don't believe that there is a word called "Calvinism" as it appears to be made up to identify a heresy. Same with Gnostic. Just a word used to compare to a specific idea ( so the originators have something to define for themselves).

Once the Bible was translated to English and German from it's Latin prison (for 800 years), men started to see many flaws by the Catholics. William Tyndale and John Wycliffe (who interpreted the Gospels from the original Greek the Catholics held) both died and burned at the hands of the Catholics for such a heresy, giving man the Gospel in his own language to understand. It didn't take long for people like Luther, Wesley and Calvin to see a different more open truth and run with it.

The Gospel taken from man is being returned to man. Just as the destroyed books (by the Catholics) are showing up again.

To me, I see Calvin as seeking the right path to acquire spiritual knowledge. Had he known of the non Canon Gospels, I believe he may have considered them as well. He was a seeker, that thought outside the box of Orthodoxy.

I see the actions of Calvin very beneficial for obtaining a personal spiritual experience, even though he was still monotheist.
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,021
✟102,588.00
Faith
Christian
There sure are a lot of Calvinist related posts lately.

I have a question, if we're all so deeply in "bondage" to sin and "captive" to lusts that not one of us is able or willing to come to Christ, why did He say this?:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." - Matthew 11:28-30

Why did He teach and preach publically to multitudes and sometimes one on one (the Samaritan woman at the well).?

Was He just taking to Himself? Why would He waste His time teaching such truth, warning, admonishing, instructing and encouraging if absolutely NO ONE has free will and ability to respond and turn to Him in faith?

I wish people would understand. Jesus IS the Grace (unmerited favour) of God. God so loved the world, even though we didn't deserve it, that He sent His only begotten Son. We did nothing to merit or earn His coming, His death on the cross for our sins or His promise to return one day for us. ALL of that is GRACE.

God HAS reached out to save us, He has offered us the ONLY Way to salvation, Jesus. We are therefore accountable if we choose to reject His Son.

And as for faith?

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" - Romans 10:8-15

Simply proof of a regenerated born again heart, that all those who come to Christ display.
Same thing in Revelation where God says let all them that thirst come and drink freely.
Christ clearly said men love evil darkness and do not come to the light because their deeds are evil.
No one seeks for God, they have all turned away, so God regenerates first the spirit so they can be taught spiritual truth about Christ.

Do you realize Calvinism teaches God makes a man born again first, and then they are taught by the Holy Spirit, and then they will believe and are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the Day of redemption?

If God does not do that, then no one will come to the light because all men are evil. It is the basic denying of evil in the heart that falsely teaches man is a free moral agent that can do as he pleases, believe or not believe in Christ. Satan blinds the minds of all unbelievers to the light of Christ, read 2 Corinthians 4 who are perishing, they are dead men walking....

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light (CHRIST) has come into the world, and men loved darkness (SATAN) rather than light (CHRIST), because their deeds were evil (SATANIC).

20 For everyone practicing evil (DESIRE TO BE LIKE SATAN) hates the light (CHRIST) and does not come to the light (CHRIST) , lest his deeds should be exposed.

21 But he who does the truth (REGENERATED BORN AGAIN SPIRIT) comes to the light (CHRIST) , that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God (GOD DID ALL THE WORK IN THEM, HE WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM COMING TO CHRIST).”




"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." - Matthew 11:28-30
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rescued One
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Upvote 0