Calvinist Baptist Talk

[JM]

How can a will be free? How could one possible contradict thier own will? By defintion, we follow our own will.




Then why has God chosen the weak in this world to be strong in faith? (1 Cor. 2).

and

 

[BT]

How can a will be free? How could one possible contradict thier own will? By defintion, we follow our own will.

Would you clarify that a bit?

Then why has God chosen the weak in this world to be strong in faith? (1 Cor. 2).

1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

I think this is the verse you were referring to. But I'm a little confused because this verse supports my argument, that God is no respector of persons. Nevertheless, who are the wise? Who are the mighty? Those who have chosen gods of their own. Paul was faced with intellectuals who had made their own minds their gods, and rulers who had made their power their gods. I'm trying to stay with you here but I'm not getting what you mean?

I mean the better point to note is that this verse isn't talking about salvation. If we really want to understand the verse we really have to understand who Paul is talking to (the church at Corinth) and why he is saying these things. I'm not seeing how this refutes that man is able to decide. Sorry it might just be me..?

 

[bleechers]

How can a will be free? How could one possible contradict thier own will? By defintion, we follow our own will.

So I come to an intersection and start to turn left... I then remember that I have to turn right there... Have I made a choice or did I act on a will in bondage?

Before I was saved and I was presented with an opportunity to do wicked things, yet I did not. Was my nature "good" there? Did I act according to a will in bondage? If so, why did my nature choose that which was contrary to my desire?

Where does guilt originate in the lost? If stealing a piece of bread is both according to my nature and in response to a will in bondage, why would a sinner feel guilty? To what on earth is the scripture referring when it speaks of a "seared conscience"? What is a "conscience" and how can it be seared if it only reacts according to its nature in complete bondage?

 

[BBAS 64]

So I come to an intersection and start to turn left... I then remember that I have to turn right there... Have I made a choice or did I act on a will in bondage?

Before I was saved and I was presented with an opportunity to do wicked things, yet I did not. Was my nature "good" there? Did I act according to a will in bondage? If so, why did my nature choose that which was contrary to my desire?

Where does guilt originate in the lost? If stealing a piece of bread is both according to my nature and in response to a will in bondage, why would a sinner feel guilty? To what on earth is the scripture referring when it speaks of a "seared conscience"? What is a "conscience" and how can it be seared if it only reacts according to its nature in complete bondage?

Good day, Bleechers

If you are a nascar driver you can not turn right, as there are no right turns.

I do not belive we are talking of the same thing, while it is true that a non saved person can choose to do things that are "good"i t is not the same as choosing Christ or choosing to have Faith or comming to belive.

Man by his nature has evil in his heart contually. A persons conscience as far as what is civil and what is not is a matter of acceptable behavior with in the times in which he/she lives. Those choices are basicly made for personal edifications. I do not how many times I have heard people saying" well I have never stolen any thing or murdered any one it is boasting. That is totally irrelevant to God's view.

*** 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

The unbeliever is defiled "tainted,polluted" both in mind and conscience, and unpure. That cleaning come from an exteral source, it has to the unpure does not know purity as they are in oppisition to each other.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[bleechers]

I agree that anything the lost do is tainted, but that does not change the fact that some acts are obviously less tainted than others... by choice.

As for choosing faith, since that has nothing to do with any deeds (Romans 4:4-5) you cannot apply the same conclusion. Faith and works are not only independent ideas in terms of salvation, they are independent ideas in terms of corruption.

Those choices are basicly made for personal edifications

Not always. This is certainly true of many choices, but we can describe choices that cannot be attributed solely to "personal edifications".

Romans 2
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...

Men have been given a conscience. They can sear that conscience by repeatedly refusing to heed it (the concsience of the Gentile is his "law" which is designed to lead him to Christ - Gal 4). If a Gentile acts in regard to the law "by nature" and is pricked in his conscience which is his "by nature", that conscience will lead to him to Christ.

Man is designed to have a law (written or conscience) that serves as his schoolmaster to drive him to Christ. He can either heed or ignore (Proverbs 1). If faith is purely an act of God, of what use is a schoolmaster to "lead" anybody?

Faith is not a work. It is the result of acting on the leading of a conscience that will "accuse" us just as the Mosaic Law accuses. No law can save. Law only accuses. But it can lead someone to Christ if its purpose is recognized.

 

[JM]

Seeking the God's power but not God.

 

[MbiaJc]

Seeking the God's power but not God.

To say man does not have free will, is to say he is a robot. Which goes against the purpous God has for man. God wont's a nation of Kings and Priest that of their own free will choose to worship Him. He can cause the rocks to worship Him if He desires, which He doesn't.
God maide man with a free will same as the angles. He knew that some would rebell against Him. However He also knew He would have some that would of their own free will choose to worship and serve Him. Which is the only true worship. If we were programed like you program a computer it wouldn't be true worship.

 

[JM]

I'm happy to tell you that calvinists, those who believe in the doctrines of Grace agree that man has a free will. Below I've included a link that helps one to understand the Biblical doctrine of free will and it's place in God's plan.

http://www.scionofzion.com/robots.htm

 

[MbiaJc]

I'm happy to tell you that calvinists, those who believe in the doctrines of Grace agree that man has a free will. Below I've included a link that helps one to understand the Biblical doctrine of free will and it's place in God's plan.

http://www.scionofzion.com/robots.htm

I'm happy to tell you that I am not a calvinists, however I believe in the doctrine of Grace and man's free will. Salvation is simple it is by Grace through Faith that not of yourselves unless any man should boast. It is a free gift(a gracious gift) of God.

Thanks but no thanks I don't get my doctrine from calvin or any other man. I get mine from the Holy Spirit. Calvinists think free will thinkers believe they can come to Jesus Christ when they get good and ready. That not so. No man can come to Jesus Christ except the Father draws him. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Now the question is who is He drawing? John 3:16 tells us, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Brother it is whosoever will believe in him or even in his name. His faith will save him. Just like Father Aberham, his faith was counted for rightousness and his works fustified him. He is Is looking to the cross while we are looking back at the cross.

 

[JM]

I'm happy to tell you that I am not a calvinists, however I believe in the doctrine of Grace and man's free will. Salvation is simple it is by Grace through Faith that not of yourselves unless any man should boast. It is a free gift(a gracious gift) of God.

Thanks but no thanks I don't get my doctrine from calvin or any other man. I get mine from the Holy Spirit. Calvinists think free will thinkers believe they can come to Jesus Christ when they get good and ready. That not so. No man can come to Jesus Christ except the Father draws him. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Now the question is who is He drawing? John 3:16 tells us, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Brother it is whosoever will believe in him or even in his name. His faith will save him. Just like Father Aberham, his faith was counted for rightousness and his works fustified him. He is Is looking to the cross while we are looking back at the cross.

Where is the love?

Works 'fustified him?' Are you sure your posting in the right forum?

 

[JM]

I'm happy to tell you that I am not a calvinists, however I believe in the doctrine of Grace and man's free will. Salvation is simple it is by Grace through Faith that not of yourselves unless any man should boast. It is a free gift(a gracious gift) of God.

Thanks but no thanks I don't get my doctrine from calvin or any other man. I get mine from the Holy Spirit. Calvinists think free will thinkers believe they can come to Jesus Christ when they get good and ready. That not so. No man can come to Jesus Christ except the Father draws him. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Now the question is who is He drawing? John 3:16 tells us, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Brother it is whosoever will believe in him or even in his name. His faith will save him. Just like Father Aberham, his faith was counted for rightousness and his works fustified him. He is Is looking to the cross while we are looking back at the cross.

Ahhhhh, I looked over your post a couple of times...I see where you're coming from. You quoted John 6:44 and John 3:16 together and wrote of drawing, I think you're saying Jesus died for everyone and everyone is drawn, everyone in essence is saved...unless you believe folks can simply 'say no' to God?

 

[MbiaJc]

Ahhhhh, I looked over your post a couple of times...I see where you're coming from. You quoted John 6:44 and John 3:16 together and wrote of drawing, I think you're saying Jesus died for everyone and everyone is drawn, everyone in essence is saved...unless you believe folks can simply 'say no' to God?

No you still didn't get it. Everyone is not saved. Only the ones that believe and except God's plan of salvation are saved. Every man has that choice to make and that choice is. What will I do with Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God.

Yes man can and most do say no to God. If you do not except His Plan of Salvation then you are saying no to God.

 

[theseed]

No you still didn't get it. Everyone is not saved. Only the ones that believe and except God's plan of salvation are saved. Every man has that choice to make and that choice is. What will I do with Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God.

Yes man can and most do say no to God. If you do not except His Plan of Salvation then you are saying no to God.


The issue is not whether we are given a choice, but what we will choose if left to our own natural/sinful desires.

 

[BT]

Yes man can and most do say no to God. If you do not except His Plan of Salvation then you are saying no to God.


The issue is not whether we are given a choice, but what we will choose if left to our own natural/sinful desires.

I thought that the issue was whether or not we were "able" to choose because of our natural state. Isn't that what Total Depravity is really about, what it boils down to is Total Inability (to choose) right? Where man is dead in his sins. And since man is "dead" in sin he is not able to choose Christ. Therefore God must first act upon the man (via regeneration), after which man can choose, but the regeneration from God is only given out to certain ones (the elect). Is that a fair description?

 

[theseed]

I thought that the issue was whether or not we were "able" to choose because of our natural state. Isn't that what Total Depravity is really about, what it boils down to is Total Inability (to choose) right? Where man is dead in his sins. And since man is "dead" in sin he is not able to choose Christ. Therefore God must first act upon the man (via regeneration), after which man can choose, but the regeneration from God is only given out to certain ones (the elect). Is that a fair description?

Yes, that is what I said. It's not whether we have a choice, ovbvioiusly we do. It is whether or not we want to chose.

 

[MbiaJc]

I thought that the issue was whether or not we were "able" to choose because of our natural state. Isn't that what Total Depravity is really about, what it boils down to is Total Inability (to choose) right? Where man is dead in his sins. And since man is "dead" in sin he is not able to choose Christ. Therefore God must first act upon the man (via regeneration), after which man can choose, but the regeneration from God is only given out to certain ones (the elect). Is that a fair description?

No God does not have respect of persons. Man has that choice to make in his natural state. Regeneration doesn't come till after man has chosen God. I believe every human that ever lived has a natural desire to worship a higher power(a god if you will). Now we know that the majority of man choose to worship false gods. Which there are hundreds of false gods. Few verry few choose to worship the one and only true and living God. God predestioned before the foundation of the world. That the ones that would choose His plan of salvation, would be given the power to become Sons of God. That is predestination in a nut shell. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. The Call is for whosoever will believe on Him or even on His name. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[theseed]

No God does not have respect of persons

That is one of the basic tennants of Calvinism. The "U" in TULIP means "unconditional election". When Calvinist speak of unconditional election, they say that election is not based on anything that we do (works), including believing or having faith.

 

[BT]

That is one of the basic tennants of Calvinism. The "U" in TULIP means "unconditional election". When Calvinist speak of unconditional election, they say that election is not based on anything that we do (works), including believing or having faith.

Yes but that is kind of a play on words isn't it? On one hand we say that God is no respector of persons but at the same time we say that God has picked only certain people (the elect) for salvation. So if God has picked certain ones for salvation then is He not then a respector of persons in the sense of the elect and the non-elect. He has chosen some above others for some unknown reason...

 

[BT]

No God does not have respect of persons. Man has that choice to make in his natural state. Regeneration doesn't come till after man has chosen God. I believe every human that ever lived has a natural desire to worship a higher power(a god if you will). Now we know that the majority of man choose to worship false gods. Which there are hundreds of false gods. Few verry few choose to worship the one and only true and living God. God predestioned before the foundation of the world. That the ones that would choose His plan of salvation, would be given the power to become Sons of God. That is predestination in a nut shell. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. The Call is for whosoever will believe on Him or even on His name. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Yeah I'm on your side in this one.... I'm the 0 point Calvinist around here. I'm just trying to get a clear understanding of exactly what it is that they are saying. I've found that the general beliefs of calvinists are somewhat different, usually only slightly. The "textbook" definition is one that you rarely find around here. 'Cept mabey for Street Preacher who seems (to me) to pretty much follow textbook TULIP... anyway that's the purpose of the questions.

 

[JM]

Yeah I'm on your side in this one.... I'm the 0 point Calvinist around here. I'm just trying to get a clear understanding of exactly what it is that they are saying. I've found that the general beliefs of calvinists are somewhat different, usually only slightly. The "textbook" definition is one that you rarely find around here. 'Cept mabey for Street Preacher who seems (to me) to pretty much follow textbook TULIP... anyway that's the purpose of the questions.

BT, you're not a 0 point Calvinist...are you? You believe in once saved always saved, don't you? Do you believe that Christ died without a people to save in mind or did Christ died with those He "foreknew" in mind?