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Calvinism: Why Evangelize?

Discussion in 'Missions, Evangelism & Witnessing' started by Humble_Disciple, Jul 18, 2021.

  1. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Free will is the ability/power to choose what one prefers without external force or constraint.

    Free will is not the issue in the Bible, the issue is the disposition, what one prefers, which controls the will.

    God operates within the dispositions of men, giving them to prefer his will, and they freely and willingly choose what they prefer without external force or constraint.

    God does not violate the free will of men to bring them to himself, he uses it.

    "For, it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Philippians 2:13),

    "to be holy and blameless in his sight, to be adopted as his sons" (Ephesians 1:4-5),
    "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" that he may have many brothers (Romans 8:29), etc.
     
  2. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    It's about justice, not about anger.

    He does not stop men from sinning because sinlessness is not the main issue in God's plan.
    The main issue in God's plan is showing forth the glory of his goodness through the glory of his Son.
    The glory of the Son is in being the Savior of men.
    God has chosen not to save all men, but to leave some in their condemnation for the effecting of his good purpose (Romans 9:22-23).
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    God can use a believer's will to do what He pleases but this is only if the agree to do God's will. God is not in the business of forcing us to be saved or in doing His will. God can be persuasive at times, and even nudge us in the right direction, but God is not about mind wiping us to be a certain way or saving us despite our desire to not be saved previously (that was not possible to serve God before without some kind of regeneration from God). Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Many Calvinists will say we cannot even hear God's words unless we are regenerated. This is a bunch of baloney. A person just has to read 2 Thessalonians 2:10, and John 17:17.
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But if God has the power to save them and His way of saving others is by force salvation against their will, then God is to blame for not saving people and you call that good? Do you cheer when somebody is not saved by the good guys? God is much more than any hero on this planet and the idea that God creates tons of people for the sole purpose of being tortured for all eternity (without any other choice on their part to change that fate) is monstrous at best.
     
  5. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Straw man. . .

    The disposition is not the mind.
     
  6. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Straw man. . .

    Do you understand the terms of the argument?
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    @Clare73

    You can keep saying strawman all you like. But until you deal with the verses I presented and the moral problem of the god of Calvinism, you really are not making a good case or defense for Calvinism.
     
  8. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    The argument (verses) is addressed. . .you don't understand the terms.
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Do you believe in all five points of Calvinism? If you hold to UNconditional Election, do you not believe God saves or elects a select few to salvation whereby by default He has chosen to not save the majority of mankind? Please be advised that this election was not based on any merits within the individual, HENCE why it is called, “UNconditional Election.” God did not choose anything within the individual that would merit them any kind of favor for salvation. God just chose them based on nothing they did. Yet, He lets the vast majority perish? Why does God not save the rest of the vast majority of mankind if this is how He indeeds saves people?
     
  10. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Your question is clearly both illustrated and answered in Romans 9:6-23.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2021
  11. Humble_Disciple

    Humble_Disciple Well-Known Member

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    I donate to India National Inland Mission. Founded by a former Hindu, this organization operates a Bible college and orphanage, while planting churches throughout northern India:
    https://briinstitute.com/mw/ministry.php?ein=956116077


    India National Inland Mission has received the highest rating for financial accountability from Ministry Watch. Because of my belief in unconditional election and irresistible grace, I can have assurance that their ministry efforts will lead to God calling His elect unto Himself.
     
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Post numbers please.
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    However, Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans.
    The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel) (Note: Being saved by God's grace is the 1st aspect of salvation; To see a more comprehesive picture of salvation, check out this CF thread post here).

    Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of salvific nationalism.
    Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace). The passage also adds in saying that salvation is by him who calls [upon the name of the Lord Jesus] (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).
    Romans 9:17-18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelite in being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms in that we know that a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens their heart, they can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening their heart against God on account of their sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
    Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining about how can God find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as an Israelite.
    Romans 9:20 A voice answers the Israelite and criticizes the Israelite. The voice asks a question from the Israelite's perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e. as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”
    When reading Romans 9:21-23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge (His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do) (1 Peter 1:1-2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18 about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation does not hear his voice, He will turn back on the good He would do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil them against unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories. The resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the damned (i.e. the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (See: Romans 2:6).

    Romans 9:30-32 clarifies (recaps) what was being said:

    “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).

    “...rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” (Romans 11:11).

    So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.
    Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 in reference to God calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person. For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

    Article source (Inspiration):
    A Non-Calvinist Interpretation of Romans 9
     
  14. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    They are the verses you listed in your post #10 on free will, which were addressed in the following:

    Free will is the ability/power to choose what one prefers without external force or constraint.

    Free will is not the issue in the Bible, the issue is the disposition--what one prefers, likes-- which controls the will.

    God operates within the dispositions of men, giving them to prefer his will, and they freely and willingly choose what they prefer without external force or constraint--which is free will.

    The disposition is not the mind, it's more one's inherit qualities and character, which is what God transforms in all believers.

    God does not violate the free will of men to bring them to himself, he uses it.

    "For, it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Philippians 2:13),

    "to be holy and blameless in his sight, to be adopted as his sons" (Ephesians 1:4-5),
    "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" that he may have many brothers (Romans 8:29), etc.
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    First, your points you made does not undo the verses I posted on our free will in choosing God. They show that the burden of responsibilty is on every man to accept God in this life (regardless of their sinful inclinations). Man is not totally depraved whereby he cannot respond to God without a regeneration. Total Depravity is a lie of Calvinism. Second, while Philippians 2:13 is true, but we also have free will to still walk away. We also have free will to decide if we want to CONTINUE with God or not over choosing a life of sin (without God) again.

    We are told:

    “...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

    "Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

    "...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​


    We are told to:

    1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

    2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

    3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).
    The picture you paint sounds like we have to do nothing and wait on God to do it all. If He does not do anything through us, we are not Elected or chosen and one of the unlucky ones. We are like the poor dog who was sick and had an uncontrollable pooping problem whereby the master just wants to kick us like a football because that his desire. But I don't believe in the God of Calvinism. I believe in the God of the Bible and it does not teach Calvinism (Which paints a cruel and heartless version of God). But you are free to believe as you wish (of course).
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I mean, what do you do with verses like these?

    “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,...” (1 Timothy 6:12).​

    Do you run and hide from such verses or do you seek to change them to fit your belief?
    For me, I just read it and believe it. There is no need for me to change this above verse to fit a pre-conceived belief that I want to be true. But I cannot in all good honestly see how the Calvinist accepts this above verse plainly in what it says. They believe they are elected to salvation and they do not have to do anything to be saved or have eternal life. But 1 Timothy 6:12 says FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH AND LAY HOLD ON ETERNAL LIFE. I believe my Bible and not men. But you are free to believe as you wish. Yes, God can work through us (Philippians 2:13). But this in harmony with Philippians 2:12 that says to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
     
  17. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I mean you no insult when I say you are not listening to Clare73. She has gone way out of her way to explain to you what Calvinism teaches and you seem unable to understand or to deal with what she is saying. She is not denying choice, nor the necessity to choose! She even uses the term 'free will', showing how it is free to choose according to its disposition. She does not paint a cruel and heartless version of God.
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    She was not able to explain away my rebuttal of her false Calvnistic way of thinking on Romans 9.
    Also, nobody has also been able to provide a satisfactory answer to the moral problem in UNconditional Election whereby God elects (chooses to save) a person beyond their own free will and yet God allows the vast majority of mankind to perish (When He could just Elect them ALL to be forced saved against their will). This is something Calvinists are unwilling to answer and thus they try to escape explaining it and or they try to paint a different nicer picture (that seems contrary to what they believe).
     
  19. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Good response.

    However, your take on Romans 9:6-32 is totally contra-Biblical.

    The whole book of Romans was written to Gentiles with the righteousness of God in mind, for Gentiles as well as for Jews.
    Right. . .Romans 9:6-8 is about the separation of believing Israel and unbelieving Israel, that physical descent is no guarantee of a place in God's family.
    Actually, Romans 9:9-16 begins the vindication of God's sovereignty as part of
    the vindication in Romans 9-11 of God's righteousness in the rejection of Israel, where
    Romans 9:10-13 is about God's sovereign choice in election of Jacob, before anything had been done good or bad by either child, not by works but by him who calls, in order that God's purpose might stand (Jacob--Israel, was to be the father of the tribes), and
    Romans 9:14-16 is a vindication of God's justice in the rejection of Israel, based in God's sovereign right to dispense mercy as he pleases, based simply on his choice to do so and nothing else.
    Romans 9:17-18 is a continuation of the vindication of God's justice by his sovereign right to dispense mercy as he pleases, based on nothing but his sovereign choice.
    Romans 9:19-21 presents the natural objection raised by man against God's absolute sovereignty to do as he pleases, based on nothing (v. 11) but his choice to do so: "If God determines whose heart is hardened and whose is not, how can God blame anyone for his hardened heart, for who can resist God's will?"--drawing from Paul his response to the impenitent, God-defying attitude which wants to make God answerable to man for what he does, and who, by such questions, defame the character of God--"Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?". . .Paul using the analogy of the potter and the clay (Isaiah 29:16), where from the same lump of clay the potter chooses to make one vessel for honorable purposes and another for dihonorable purposes (latrine).
    However, that is not the Biblical meaning of God's foreknowledge.

    Biblically, God's foreknowledge means knowing in advance what he is going to do, it does not refer to his knowing in advance what man is going to do.

    Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work."
    Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold the former things long ago (foreknowledge),
    my mouth announced them and I made them known; (decreed)
    then suddenly I acted, and they came to pass (happened).

    See Acts 2:23, Acts 2:48; Isaiah 37:26; Isaiah 45:21; Romans 8:29, Romans 11:2;
    1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:17.

    God knows what is going to happen in advance, because God has decreed that it shall happen.
    Romans 9:22-24 - Illustrates the principle of the potter in v. 21, his sovereign right to do as he pleases based on nothing but his personal choice.
    Romans 9:25-26 - God takes those who are not his people (Gentiles) and makes them his people by sovereignly grafting them into covenant relationship (chp 11).
    Romans 9:27-29 - Only a remnant of Israel will be saved, v. 27 (see 11:1-5, 25).

    Romans 9:30-32 - The real cause of Israel's rejection was that she failed to believe.
    It was in the nature of her disobedience: she failed to obey her own God-given law, which pointed to Christ, and she pursued the law--yet not by faith but by works.
    Romans 9:10-18 demonstrate that is exactly what Paul is talking about.
    The example of Jacob and Esau couldn't be any clearer.
    That is your misrepresentation of Philippians 2:13:

    "For it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

    And that is not force, that is grace.


     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    There really is no point in me rehashing these points with Scripture with you again. You are not reading Romans 9 in context to the chapter and the book of Romans. Only part of Romans 9 sounds Calvinistic. It is the only part of the Bible that does sound like that if read out of context with a surface shallow reading. But the rest of the Bible is not written in that way. We should trust the whole counsel of God's Word and not just believe what we prefer to see. I believe Calvinism paints a picture of God that is cold hearted and forces many people to a fate of not being saved and their sole purpose in life is to be tortured for all eternity (Without them having any power to change that fate). Many want to believe in God to be this way, and they have free will to believe this way wrongfully of God. But such a view of God is not biblical. I know it does not matter what verses I present and what points I make. Many want the Calvinistic God to be true for their own personal reasons or because it fits their own mindset in how they view the world. But we are to worship the One true God who is the maker of the Heavens and the Earth and who is good and does things with a fair and just hand. Anyways, can you demonstrate to me how Unconditional Election and the forced damnation of the wicked (against their free will) is good by using a real world example? I don't see how.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
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